Opal Discussion and Observations

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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

There was free Opal travel today from 04:00 to 12:00.

The readers/gates were switched back on at 12:00, so it seems anyone who arrived at their destinations after 12:00 without having tapped on got hit with a default fare at tap off.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

I would be making a call to Opal requesting an adjustment. That's not fair.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

They were promising that anyone who tapped on during this period would get a refund, but with no tap on, it might be hard to prove you started the trip before 12:00
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

In which case they should have no alternative but to accept it.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

To be honest the rule was very unclear, it did not specify if it was exclusively for journeys within the window 4am-12pm, or anything commencing or ending within that window.

They needed to produce a table:

Scenario A: Commencing journey at 3:59am ending at 4:30am - tap on required, tap off possible, normal fare charged. If no tap off, default fare charged or automatic refund?

Scenario Bi: 4:02am - 5:06pm- no tap on/automatic refund=no fares charged, no further action

Bii: 11:30am - 11:45pm - tap off only = automatic refund of a default fare, NFA

Scenario C: 11:59am - 12pm - default fare if you can't exit from a gated station without staff intervention or tapping, assistance/fare adjustment required any trip at or

Scenario D: After 12pm - tap on required, normal fare charged, If no tap off, default fare charged, customer can seek reimbursement that count towards 1 of the 3 maximum available due to user error per (virtual) card number?

The lack of clarity makes it appear as though like there was some sort of wishful thinking that unadjusted/unnoticed default fares would "compensate"/"make-up" for those who managed to travel fare free
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

Opal readers were still on at stations for the period, if someone was eligible for the 100% discount, it would have been applied within a few days.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Politicians need to stop making ill-thought-out, popularist decisions. It should have been either a fare free day for the full day, i.e. 4am Sunday until 4am Monday, or not at all.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:40 am Politicians need to stop making ill-thought-out, popularist decisions. It should have been either a fare free day for the full day, i.e. 4am Sunday until 4am Monday, or not at all.
Thoroughly agree. It causes more trouble than good.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by stupid_girl »

boronia wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:32 pm They were promising that anyone who tapped on during this period would get a refund, but with no tap on, it might be hard to prove you started the trip before 12:00
It's probably easier to do a blanket refund for all default fares rather than investigating case by case.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

Opal is 10 years old today! https://www.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/m ... h-birthday
The NSW Government has welcomed the 4.5 billionth tap-on to the Opal network at Parramatta Train Station today as the revolutionary electronic ticketing system turns 10.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

I remember being aware of it's future rollout and it doesn't seen that long ago.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Today is the 10th anniversary of my early issue Gold Opal card. I thought the black cards had been around longer than that.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

boronia wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:39 pm Today is the 10th anniversary of my early issue Gold Opal card. I thought the black cards had been around longer than that.
Gold Opal Card was only available in 2014?

7 News posted this on Facebook/YouTube;
As of 1 December 2022, the combined number of Opal card and contactless payment method trips taken on the Opal network is 4,470,297,397 trips.
This is broken down into:
Rail: 2,478,020,503 trips
Bus: 1,802,232,771 trips
Light rail: 98,862,307 trips
Ferry: 91,181,816 trips

More than 56 million Opal cards have been issued for contactless payments, more than 260 million trips have been taken up to August 2022. In August 2022, contactless payments accounted for 40 per cent of all adult trips.

The Opal card replaced paper tickets that were fully retired in August 2016.

- 7 December 2012: Adult Opal card launches on Neutral Bay to Circular Quay ferry service April
- 2014: Child/Youth Opal card became available November 2014: Gold Senior/Pensioner Opal cards became available
- February 2015: Concession Opal card begins progressively rolling out to eligible customer groups, starting with tertiary students
- July 2016: School Opal card commences roll out
- August 2016: Opal Single Trip Tickets introduced and all other paper tickets were retired
- In July 2017, Transport for NSW introduced the option to tap a credit or debit card, or linked smart device on Opal readers to access the same fares and benefits as an Opal card.
- OpalPay launched in December 2017. OpalPay is a convenient way to pay for travel using your Opal card on participating transport services, including selected private ferries and On Demand public transport.
- In February 2019, the Opal enabled Newcastle Light rail opened.
- In May 2019, the Opal enabled Metro North West opened.
- In December 2019, the Opal enabled L2 Randwick light rail line opened.
- In April 2020, the Opal enabled L3 Kingsford light rail line opened.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/yea ... 5c4f2.html
The introduction of the new intercity trains comes as the government is about to put out to tender a $568 million upgrade of the Opal ticketing system, which will involve a replacement of electronic readers and back-office billing.

The Opal system was progressively rolled out over several years from 2012, ending paper tickets. It has 25,000 payment terminals and has clocked up 4.5 billion tap-ons by commuters since it was introduced. In a sign of changes in commuter behaviour, 40 per cent of trips by adults are now paid for using credit or debit cards.
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Elliott, who is retiring at the state election in March, said the upgrade would allow other forms of transport such as ride-share to be paid for using the Opal system.

He declined to give a timeframe for when the upgrade would be completed but noted it had taken about 18 months for the original Opal system to be rolled out.

Transport for NSW executive director Kurt Brissett said some Opal ticketing hardware was “reaching obsolescence”, and the upgrade would improve the ability to connect the system to different types of transport besides trains, ferries, light rail and buses.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

The opal card came after that short lived 2004-2005 T card SSTS trial which I was a part of as I was still going to school at that time
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

In some developing countries, their initial technology rolled out for the betterment of the people was the latest technology could offer. i.e. from nothing to the latest.

Considering how long we were waiting for any dedicated contactless card public transport fare payment method, why couldn't it have been delayed for a few more years so now we don't need this "upgrade"? Did the Government get sucked in by Cubic's preferred profit/sales tactics akin to Apple wanting you to upgrade to their exorbitant latest flagships every single year?

I think New York subway are only just starting to replace their antiquated magnetic swipe tickets with the view of transition, commencing from 2024 onwards :roll: ?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

boxythingy wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:42 pm Considering how long we were waiting for any dedicated contactless card public transport fare payment method, why couldn't it have been delayed for a few more years so now we don't need this "upgrade"? Did the Government get sucked in by Cubic's preferred profit/sales tactics akin to Apple wanting you to upgrade to their exorbitant latest flagships every single year?

I think New York subway are only just starting to replace their antiquated magnetic swipe tickets with the view of transition, commencing from 2024 onwards :roll: ?
If we waited for the "latest", like some buying technology items, we'd still be on magstripe (think MyZone) tickets or even earlier.
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and accept what is available today as such but at least think a bit ahead where possible.

From memory the Opal system only needed software upgrades to at least accept contactless bank cards (even if there are a few hitches in doing so) - which had we ended up with the T-Card system style readers or even ones like the older SE Queensland ones I suspect we would have needed to replace the readers then the back end software before even being able to accept contactless bank cards or virtual cards using a smartphone app.

I can remember having one of the early trial Opal cards (when they extended it up what is now the T1 North Shore train line to Chatswood) and even then it was seen to be better than the magstripe readers (which actually ate a couple of my weekly tickets... at least it spat it out unlike some whose tickets jammed the machines on the buses).

But of course, let's ask the question... how long would *you* have waited to start rolling out Opal, remembering the former magstripe ticketing system was introduced in the early 1990s and equipment was going end of life (if not already by the start of the Opal rollout)?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

At 10 years, Opal will be on the 2nd set of back-end tech anyway. The big IT vendors will only support a server for between 5 and 7 years, so I expect the Opal servers are on at least their 2nd generation already.
The field equipment is expected to have a longer life, but unless the readers evolve parts will start to get difficult to find for them.

The old mag readers in the end were being repaired using parts scavaged from readers removed from other systems.

I think the greatest risk is the government 'taking the opportunity' to impose some new rules into the mix (like their Opal+ thing), increasing the complexity of the system. More complex means more likely to fail. There is potential here to take a relatively simple technology refresh and turn it into a disaster. Scope creep has taken down many a project.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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https://transportnsw.info/news/2022/bat ... s-payments
Bathurst buses to offer contactless payments
Friday 09 December 2022

From 12 December 2022, passengers on select Buslines routes in Bathurst will be able to pay their fare by tapping their credit or debit card on a contactless card reader when boarding. 

Initially 16 buses have been fitted with card reader technology in Bathurst, and soon this will be followed by select bus services in Dubbo in early 2023.

With the trial, we offer our regional customers a more convenient and efficient way to pay for their fare, without the need to handle cash. Customers will be able to simply tap to pay for their fare using a credit or debit card or linked device when they board the bus.

If successful, future trials could involve up to 300 buses across rural and regional areas.
It looks as though regional areas will go direct to contactless, bypassing Opal.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Would love to know how much information is being stored in the backend with this type of transaction. I'd be tempted to get a separate debit card exclusively for public transport if it came to that; with all the glitches and screwups readers can have, just a bit hard to trust them with your main payment method!
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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Fleet Lists wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:54 pm https://transportnsw.info/news/2022/bat ... s-payments
Bathurst buses to offer contactless payments
Friday 09 December 2022

From 12 December 2022, passengers on select Buslines routes in Bathurst will be able to pay their fare by tapping their credit or debit card on a contactless card reader when boarding. 

Initially 16 buses have been fitted with card reader technology in Bathurst, and soon this will be followed by select bus services in Dubbo in early 2023.

With the trial, we offer our regional customers a more convenient and efficient way to pay for their fare, without the need to handle cash. Customers will be able to simply tap to pay for their fare using a credit or debit card or linked device when they board the bus.

If successful, future trials could involve up to 300 buses across rural and regional areas.
It looks as though regional areas will go direct to contactless, bypassing Opal.
Will this work for concession holders? A lot of rural people would be senior/pensioner rates?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Fleet Lists wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:54 pm
It looks as though regional areas will go direct to contactless, bypassing Opal.
Quite a number of companies offer compact card transaction machines based on mobile phones/tablets. It's now easy to accept 'contactless', it's just a matter of fees for the service. (Bus fares typically being low-value transactions, so the operator won't want to be handing a percentage of the meagre takings over to the bank!)

Last October in the UK we caught a couple of regional buses, and they all did payment by contactless card. Instead of handing over cash, it was tap the card to the tablet mounted next to the ticket machine and the driver hands you the ticket. There were no smarts or anything, it was just a straight substitute of a card for cash - you still had to tell the bus driver your destination so they could key in the correct fare.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

matthewg wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:07 amLast October in the UK we caught a couple of regional buses, and they all did payment by contactless card. Instead of handing over cash, it was tap the card to the tablet mounted next to the ticket machine and the driver hands you the ticket. There were no smarts or anything, it was just a straight substitute of a card for cash - you still had to tell the bus driver your destination so they could key in the correct fare.
A good example of how technology that is meant to make the world better ends up being regressive! At least with cash, where passengers tender correct fare or close to it, you can roll off the correct ticket without too much extra thought. That system sounds even slower ... and my experience years ago in retail was that people never know how much money is in their account, often select the wrong account, use the wrong card, the card has been sat on and barely works, have to pull themselves away from InstaTwit or TokFarce to open the banking app on the phone ...

Makes you wonder if a token based system, dump a coin in the box and keep walking, wouldn't be better than all this overcomplicated nonsense.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:42 pm . That system sounds even slower ...
Watching it in use, it was MUCH quicker than cash. Many people won't tender exact change even if the system is 'exact fare only'. If they don't have change they argue with the driver.
Card payments at least remove the argument over having the correct change.
The card payers were stating their destination and then tapping wallet/phone and then taking the ticket. The cash payers were all fumbling for change at the payment step.

and my experience years ago in retail was that people never know how much money is in their account, often select the wrong account, use the wrong card, the card has been sat on and barely works, have to pull themselves away from InstaTwit or TokFarce to open the banking app on the phone ...
If they are using the payment app built into the phone operating system (Google Pay/Wallet, Apple Pay) all they have to do is tap the phone. Depending on settings the device may not even need to be unlocked. (Mine does 'low value' transactions without having to be unlocked.) They can keep InstaTwit or TokFarce open and just pull themselves away long enough to wave the phone in front of the reader. Assuming their default payment card in the phone has enough credit of course.

The real app tragics will be under the bus having stepped out into the flow of traffic without looking up from their device's screen:-)
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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boronia wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:03 pm
Will this work for concession holders? A lot of rural people would be senior/pensioner rates?
It reads to me as though it is only a tap when boarding with no tap off. So that there is no automatic fare calculation with the fare amount to be entered by the driver at the start of the journey. If that is the case, it could be used by concession holders.
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