Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Passenger 57
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:55 pm It's probably been discussed to death round here, but surely a zonal fare system for Sydney would be better than distance-based bands that vary between modes, with transfer penalties, rebates, fare caps, and other eccentricities?
I think so, but IPART doesn't. I won't rehash the previous discussion but I will point out that opting for a zonal system would require less customisation of the next-generation ticketing system. We could have a simpler distance based system too with time and mode surcharges if we really wanted. Singapore's fare system provides an example that could be built upon offering fully integrated distance fares with a flagfall that can vary according to the modes taken.
Personally I prefer the redundancy offered by a separate card.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I think we will have an account based system sometime in the future. There would still need to be physical cards for those that chose them, not eligible for bank scheme cards, or without a compatible digital device. This would be a prepaid card compliant with the EMV credit card standards but probably only work on transit rather than the current stored value card. A physical version of Opal digital. Many people won't like it but its probably in our future.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »

Zonal systems were really just a hack before systems could quickly calculate actually distance.

Eg. Singapore where it's literally a different charge every hundred metres (none of this banding)

But the whole subscription thing just seems to be going back to the old days of Travel Tens and Weekly passes
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

moa999 wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:06 pm Zonal systems were really just a hack before systems could quickly calculate actually distance.
Just because technology makes it easier to calculate distances does not mean the idea of zones needs to be abandoned. Tell me how to do the sort of proportional daily capping that Myki does without them. One size fits all caps are not a good solution.
But the whole subscription thing just seems to be going back to the old days of Travel Tens and Weekly passes
Yes, its smacks of that but those products had advantages that weren't replicated under Opal. Yes, Opal offered different benefits but it was entirely personal whether Opal offered a net-win or loss and the equation has subsequently changed. To me these subscriptions represent an admission that Opal has shortcomings particularly with pricing for multi-modal travel but it would be preferable to fix Opal rather than introducing more complexity to the system.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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Zonal is just using larger sections on which the old fare system was based. Zonal is fine for travel within a zone but becomes a problem for travel just within a zone to just within the next zone. This is often shorter than travel within a zone. Special rules then need to be introduced for such short interzonal travel. This can become rather complicated and has never been introduced satisfactorily.

And intermodal fares do not need zones - it can be introduced more easily on a distance based system. But the government does not want to this as they consider fares for some modes should be different from others because of the different costs of operating the different modes.

This latest proposal seems to be answer to the request by some people to have fixed fares for which IPART did suggest n unworkable solution and this latest proposal again adds unnecessary complications to the system.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »

What 'broke' transfers under the existing scheme was fixing the transfer rebate at $2 and not inflating it,
And then going and introducing Peak fares for bus/ light rail.
So suddenly people went from paying 10c for a transfer to $1.24 or so

Think there is a way simpler fix than these over complicated packs.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

When you have grubberments introducing more complicated systems, they always get more glitches.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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moa999 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:06 am What 'broke' transfers under the existing scheme was fixing the transfer rebate at $2 and not inflating it,
And then going and introducing Peak fares for bus/ light rail.
So suddenly people went from paying 10c for a transfer to $1.24 or so

Think there is a way simpler fix than these over complicated packs.
There certainly is. Inflating the transfer amount would be part of that.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Singapore managed to sort it. I don't know why we can't.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Key word Singapore IE : not Australian bureaucrats.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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Passenger 57 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:24 pm Singapore managed to sort it. I don't know why we can't.
Please explain how.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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Fleet Lists wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:36 pm
Passenger 57 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:24 pm Singapore managed to sort it. I don't know why we can't.
Please explain how.
The modal differences in Singapore's fares have mostly disappeared but unfortunately there is no official explanation of the methodology that goes into details. bussie's summaries are probably clearer than anything I can write and match with my understanding: here and here
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

So you are basically just talking about the integrated fares. I was reading a lot more into it.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by verbatim9 »

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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by verbatim9 »

^^Just the 7 news report on the phase out of plastic cards.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

verbatim9 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:17 pm ^^Just the 7 news report on the phase out of plastic cards.
Yet another means of locking people into an endless upgrade cycle on mobile devices - which most of us have anyway, but the recurrent costs of buying the damned things would be nice to do without. The direction we're heading in will basically mean if your phone goes flat, or should break, you are absolutely f&^%$d.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

moa999 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:06 am What 'broke' transfers under the existing scheme was fixing the transfer rebate at $2 and not inflating it,
And then going and introducing Peak fares for bus/ light rail.
So suddenly people went from paying 10c for a transfer to $1.24 or so

Think there is a way simpler fix than these over complicated packs.
I don't specifically agree with the argument that was given at the time, but I seem to recall some mention of the higher 0-3km peak bus fare intentionally being a bit of a disincentive for those travelling short distances particularly for those using a bus to/from another mode (usually train), and walking was the alternative if you were close enough, especially given the 0-3km peak bus fare is $1.0667/km but a 0-9km peak ferry fare is $0.69/km [and 0-10km peak train fare is $0.366/km as such].

As much as it'd be nice to have fares at the same cost regardless of mode, without an overhaul I can't see that happening (even if it means using the same distance scales which isn't the case between any two modes [excepting light rail and bus]), since I can't imagine a train commuter paying $6.90 for a 10km trip [if using the ferry distance fare scale] or, god forbid, $10.67 for that same trip if using the peak bus fare scale.
What's the happy medium though... you'd have to know how much it costs to run each mode of transport to even have a clue as to where that happy medium lies as such.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »


pgt wrote: but I seem to recall some mention of the higher 0-3km peak bus fare intentionally being a bit of a disincentive for those travelling short distances particularly for those using a bus to/from another mode (usually train), and walking was the alternative if you were close enough,
And yet we spend hundreds of millions on rail carparks for many of the same people, and charge them nothing.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

moa999 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:10 pm
pgt wrote:but I seem to recall some mention of the higher 0-3km peak bus fare intentionally being a bit of a disincentive for those travelling short distances particularly for those using a bus to/from another mode (usually train), and walking was the alternative if you were close enough,
And yet we spend hundreds of millions on rail carparks for many of the same people, and charge them nothing.
Perth rolled out paid park'n'ride years ago, under the guise of budget repair or controlling demand. At the same time, the marketing posters usually found on buses and trains advertised passengers could "use a feeder bus for no extra charge", hinting at the integrated ticketing and passenger's journeys home on a feeder not usually taking them into the next zone.

From an economics perspective, the difference fares for different modes idea would presumably represent the operating costs leftover after subsidy, and then priced according to demand, patronage and goodness-knows-what else. However, has anyone run those supercomputers through the operational revenue (or rather, how much more or less subsidy) from a standard fare increment across all modes, with no transfer penalties/rebates? Surely then you would wind up with some modes turning a relative profit and being able to cross-subsidise. It would also allow passengers to make integrated journeys without copping a financial penalty - which might actually drag them out of their cars and allow better service provision. If you have folks too lazy to walk - then maybe on specific corridors you have a grossly overpriced adult peak fare to discourage that behaviour (and control obesity at the same time).
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by stupid_girl »

Passenger 57 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:07 pm
Fleet Lists wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:36 pm
Please explain how.
The modal differences in Singapore's fares have mostly disappeared but unfortunately there is no official explanation of the methodology that goes into details. bussie's summaries are probably clearer than anything I can write and match with my understanding: here and here
It seems bus fares (trunk services) are aligned with train fares. Express bus fares are much more expensive.
https://www.ptc.gov.sg/docs/default-sou ... er_fa3.pdf
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »


stupid_girl wrote: It seems bus fares (trunk services) are aligned with train fares. Express bus fares are much more expensive.
https://www.ptc.gov.sg/docs/default-sou ... er_fa3.pdf
Yep slight premium (60c) flagfall for express buses, and discount (50c) for early morning trains.

Applied to Sydney we've got something close to a $2 flagfall for off-peak train, bus and LR, $3 for peak, and then $6 for anything involving a ferry, obviously with a few +/- due to the fare banding.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by In Transit »

pgt wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:31 pm
moa999 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:06 am What 'broke' transfers under the existing scheme was fixing the transfer rebate at $2 and not inflating it,
And then going and introducing Peak fares for bus/ light rail.
So suddenly people went from paying 10c for a transfer to $1.24 or so

Think there is a way simpler fix than these over complicated packs.
I don't specifically agree with the argument that was given at the time, but I seem to recall some mention of the higher 0-3km peak bus fare intentionally being a bit of a disincentive for those travelling short distances particularly for those using a bus to/from another mode (usually train), and walking was the alternative if you were close enough, especially given the 0-3km peak bus fare is $1.0667/km but a 0-9km peak ferry fare is $0.69/km [and 0-10km peak train fare is $0.366/km as such].

As much as it'd be nice to have fares at the same cost regardless of mode, without an overhaul I can't see that happening (even if it means using the same distance scales which isn't the case between any two modes [excepting light rail and bus]), since I can't imagine a train commuter paying $6.90 for a 10km trip [if using the ferry distance fare scale] or, god forbid, $10.67 for that same trip if using the peak bus fare scale.
What's the happy medium though... you'd have to know how much it costs to run each mode of transport to even have a clue as to where that happy medium lies as such.
What I found particularly irritating about the changes which increased the fares when using short distance feeder bus trips to different modes (or even, for example, short trips within the CBD on light rail after arriving on a different mode) was the dismissive attitude of "let them walk".. when at the same time we are continuously bombarded with the shiny bright lights of on-demand as the next best thing to "solve the last mile dilemma." Left hand, right hand anyone?

Fares policy in Sydney is fundamentally disconnected from planning and modal shift outcomes - scars of Sydney's long term public transport management dysfunction.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

In Transit wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:48 am Fares policy in Sydney is fundamentally disconnected from planning and modal shift outcomes - scars of Sydney's long term public transport management dysfunction.
The first stage is to recognise that there is a problem. Are the journey based subscriptions in Opal+ a tacit recognition of this? Wake me up when the opposition says there is a problem with the fare rules. The second stage is to get someone competent without a vested interest to redesign the fare system based on the desired outcomes. IPART is too narrowly focussed and not qualified for this job.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

I came across a station barrier reader displaying "adult Opal only" on the screen. It wouldn't open for Gold or Student cards.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Maybe it was an R rated gate?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

boronia wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:35 pm I came across a station barrier reader displaying "adult Opal only" on the screen. It wouldn't open for Gold or Student cards.
They used to do this back in the MyZone fare days (at least with the magstripe tickets), I suspect to funnel concession card holders towards one side - whether to check tickets or for some other reason I don't recall but if it was for that it'd make sense.
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