Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

[tonyp]

In order to keep things on a like-for-like basis, it the metro can at full operational potential seat 15,120, then double deck trains operating at three minute intervals, as they do at times on some lines, would have 18,000 seats. Suburban smokes metro. Again your suggestion of a dishonest picture is flawed.

We were talking about the Bankstown line. However, I was tossing up whether to mention the 20 trains per hour suburban scenario in my post, but I thought I'd sit back and see who came back at me on it. I thought it would be Transtopic, so I lost that bet. You were the clear runner up though.

When you have that many people on board, seats matter less and we're looking at total capacity which, in those scenarios, is over 40,000 pphpd for metro and about 24,000 pphpd for a thoroughly smoked optimum suburban service. In terms of seating, though, the difference between 15,000 and 18,000 is nothing like the picture portrayed by metro opponents who have us believe, on their train vs train comparison, that the metro has only about 40% of the seats of the suburban system when in fact it's closer to 85% when delivered at maximum capacity on an hour by hour basis.

[tonyp]

yawn

Don't spoil my fun!

Not sure how we got here but anyway.......

Apologies if this has been published before, a comparison of DD vs SD by the ABC in 2014:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-11/ ... %2Ddeckers.

Out of date and bypassed by subsequent real-life operation.

The article puts forth the hypothesis that less people will use the Metro because of lesser seating capacity. How's that going?

Not very well at all, like it never happened and its extremely popular. It's like the Perth system (which also has lesser seating capacity per train) - the quicker journey time compensates for the inconvenience of not getting a seat. Indeed the phenomenon has been observed on the metro that people quite often stand when there are seats available.

[Merc1107]

As the train empties out, find oneself a seat. Alternatively catch one of those niche City Express bus services still running (if they are) if it matters so much.

The Joondalup and Mandurah lines in Perth would not be popular (sorry, an ongoing, runaway success beyond all expectaction) if seats were as much of a problem as they're made out to be here - in fact the newer deliveries of railcars for those lines have focused on standee capacity, and the first generation EMUs reconfigured exclusively into perimeter seating for their work on 30-40min runs on the "heritage" lines.

[tonyp]

As the train empties out, find oneself a seat. Alternatively catch one of those niche City Express bus services still running (if they are) if it matters so much.

The Joondalup and Mandurah lines in Perth would not be popular (sorry, an ongoing, runaway success beyond all expectaction) if seats were as much of a problem as they're made out to be here - in fact the newer deliveries of railcars for those lines have focused on standee capacity, and the first generation EMUs reconfigured exclusively into perimeter seating for their work on 30-40min runs on the "heritage" lines.

Seats aren't an issue if journey time is fairly quick. That's the crux of it.

They were certainly planning to put that to the test in Perth when they were considering four doors per car per side for the C series (same as European metro trains). That would have really chewed the seating, but I see that they've settled on three. If the Sydney metro was that mythical beast, a "true metro", it would have four doors per car.

[Transtopic]

In order to keep things on a like-for-like basis, it the metro can at full operational potential seat 15,120, then double deck trains operating at three minute intervals, as they do at times on some lines, would have 18,000 seats. Suburban smokes metro. Again your suggestion of a dishonest picture is flawed.

We were talking about the Bankstown line. However, I was tossing up whether to mention the 20 trains per hour suburban scenario in my post, but I thought I'd sit back and see who came back at me on it. I thought it would be Transtopic, so I lost that bet. You were the clear runner up though.

When you have that many people on board, seats matter less and we're looking at total capacity which, in those scenarios, is over 40,000 pphpd for metro and about 24,000 pphpd for a thoroughly smoked optimum suburban service. In terms of seating, though, the difference between 15,000 and 18,000 is nothing like the picture portrayed by metro opponents who have us believe, on their train vs train comparison, that the metro has only about 40% of the seats of the suburban system when in fact it's closer to 85% when delivered at maximum capacity on an hour by hour basis.

The problem with your comparison is that you're comparing apples with oranges. The potential total passenger demand on the Bankstown Line alone is never going to warrant more than 15tph, let alone 30tph. A more valid comparison between the metro and DD is operating at a similar frequency where DD provides near double the number of seats, which contrary to your dismissive opinion, is an important consideration for longer distance journeys. I don't give a stuff what Perth does, because it's a minnow compared to Sydney.

The government continually understates the capacity of the DD trains compared with metro, without acknowledging the increased capacity, frequency and reduced journey times which will eventuate with the digital signalling upgrade and implementation of ATO. The Bankstown Line currently has a frequency of 10tph, which could potentially be upgraded to 12tph for an all stations service with the current signalling. There are already 2 spare paths on the City Circle Inner via Museum.

The new digital signalling upgrade will allow for a frequency of 24tph and up to 30tph to recover from disruptions on the network.

Let's wait and see how Bankstown Line commuters respond to their new magical rail service.

[tonyp]

Good morning Transtopic. Welcome aboard!

It's "longer journey time", not "longer distance". They're not the same thing.

[Linto63]

I was tossing up whether to mention the 20 trains per hour suburban scenario in my post, but I thought I'd sit back and see who came back at me on it. I thought it would be Transtopic, so I lost that bet.

So you knew who was going to say what, which beckons the question why you decided to bring it up again in the first place? Predictably it was the same people making the same points. Once again you appear to have failed to convince anybody, resorting to accusing others of dishonesty, ironically while doing the same thing yourself with apples to oranges comparisons, but getting caught out.

Perhaps if you analysed the numbers with an open mind rather than trying to marshal the facts to a conclusion you have already drawn, you wouldn't find yourself getting done over as often. I'll stand by my initial observation that you brought it up again because you were bored and looking to pick a fight.

[Fleet Lists]

As an admin, I dont think it was a matter of picking a fight, but it certainly appears to be a repeat of what has been argued a number of times in the past. I have a certain opinion on this subject but to keep neutral I am not going into that again.
Please get back to current observations as we are now flogging a dead horse on this.

[tonyp]

Perhaps if you analysed the numbers with an open mind rather than trying to marshal the facts to a conclusion you have already drawn, you wouldn't find yourself getting done over as often. I'll stand by my initial observation that you brought it up again because you were bored and looking to pick a fight.

My conclusions are based on analysis of facts, not the other way around. On the other side, I believe those arguing to the contrary are turning a blind eye to the realities of the capabilities of a rapid transit system because they have an entrenched belief in the alternative method that they're promoting. I believe I will be vindicated when the various metro projects open in coming years and members of this board will see the outcomes for themselves and the public vote with their feet.

[Fleet Lists]

This discussion is now closed.

[tonyp]

Central Station progress:

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=776169456679605

[Campbelltown busboy]

Check this YouTube channel out
https://youtube.com/c/TransportVlog

[moa999]

Check this YouTube channel out
https://youtube.com/c/TransportVlog

Pretty much all of the YT channels including Paul's get posted in the relevant threads quickly after a new video

[tonyp]

Three years today since the NW metro line opened. Has had 42.8 million passenger journeys in that (hit by covid obviously) and the trains have travelled 10.7 million km.

https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/me ... urns-three

I'm puzzled by the reference to four lines. I would count Tallawong Bankstown as one but maybe they consider it to be two?

[Fleet Lists]

Yes that are the four lines listed under https://www.sydneymetro.info/about


"Metro North West Line

Sydney’s first metro, the Metro North West Line, opened on 26 May 2019. Services at the 13 metro stations operate every four minutes in the peak in each direction on Australia’s first driverless railway. The line is being extended into the Sydney CBD and beyond, to open in 2024.

For all operational information and service information, visit https://transportnsw.info/travel-info/w ... nd/metro#/

Sydney Metro City & Southwest

A 30 kilometre extension of metro rail from the end of Metro North West Line at Chatswood under Sydney Harbour, through new CBD stations and south west to Bankstown. It is due to open in 2024 with seven new metro stations and 11 upgraded stations.

Sydney Metro West

The metro line linking Greater Parramatta and Sydney CBDs and communities along the way, servicing the key precincts of Sydney Olympic Park, The Bays, Parramatta, Westmead and the Sydney CBD. Construction will continue into the second half of the 2020s. Construction has started and the first of three tunnelling contracts is expected to be awarded in the middle of this year.

Sydney Metro – Western Sydney Airport

The railway servicing the new Western Sydney International Airport and Western Sydney Aerotropolis. To open at the same time as airline passenger services start. Construction started in late 2020."

A bit confusing as the second one is called an extension of the first one.

[tonyp]

If they are going to change the name of a single line, it's more traditional to change it as it passes through the major CBD - e.g. Western Line vs North Shore Line or Mandurah Line vs Joondalup Line. I guess the "T" numbers in Sydney overcome that. So maybe Tallawong-Bankstown will be "M1" eventually?

[Fleet Lists]

Or we could have two M1's M1 Tallawong Line and M1 Bankstown Line as we have two T1's.

[moa999]

Chatswood divesite update by Paul. Almost ready for tracks.
https://youtu.be/-8WXziMYT5M

[boronia]

Stalled industrial dispute adds $50 million to Sydney Metro costs

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sta ... 5auaq.html

[gilberations]

One would imagine that the line name will change officially at Central P26/27 or will it be 28/29? Or A/B?

[moa999]

Or initially M1/M2.
Longer term with Central Walk now built I'd think it might be possible to put a line in between the ESR and Metro and underneath the suburban platforms
(Possibly the Kogarah/LaPerouse extension of MetroWest if that goes via Central)

[Campbelltown busboy]

Will Labor cancel the Bankstown line metro conversion if they win the upcoming election I remember hearing Labor saying when the extension of the metro was announced that converting the Bankstown line would be a bad thing

[tonyp]

Will Labor cancel the Bankstown line metro conversion if they win the upcoming election I remember hearing Labor saying when the extension of the metro was announced that converting the Bankstown line would be a bad thing

They later changed their mind.

[boronia]

Perhaps they will decide AFTER they win the election. Why worry about it now?

To get the intended benefits on the City Circle, perhaps they would have to build new platforms at Sydenham, so there is somewhere to terminate the T3 off the main lines?

[Linto63]

Will Labor cancel the Bankstown line metro conversion if they win the upcoming election I remember hearing Labor saying when the extension of the metro was announced that converting the Bankstown line would be a bad thing

No, because it is well under way and will be nearly complete by the time of the next election. Once contracts for infrastructure are signed and construction is under way, the next government will always follow through with it regardless of how much they have railed against it in opposition.