Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Myrtone
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Myrtone »

I wonder what people living along the Bankstown and currently using the suburban trains might think once their double deckers are replaced by metro trains, especially if some of the don't get a seat anymore.
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Swift
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

These trains are fast and modern? We're in the 21st century at last?
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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:55 pm These trains are fast and modern? We're in the 21st century at last?
Or in more detail - and copy and paste as the answer every time somebody infers metro will bring an inferior service to the Bankstown line:

Between Bankstown and Central, the metro will cut 7 minutes off the journey time of the present all-stops trains and 2 minutes off the journey time of the semi-expresses that miss 8 stops. All commuters at all stations along the line will have every train stopping for them, yet still offer a faster trip, unlike the present status where some trains don't stop at several stations and the journey takes more time, even when semi-expressing. This is typical of the performance profile of the metro on all lines and the further it goes, the greater the journey time saving.

As for seating, presently there are typically four trains an hour on the Bankstown line with the lucky stations that don't get skipped having six trains an hour. That's 3,600 seats per hour for all stations, or 5,400 seats per hour if you're at a stopping station. The metro will have an opening service frequency of 15 trains per hour in peak and 6 trains per hour off-peak, that's 5,670 seats per hour in peaks and 2,268 seats per hour off peak - at every station. Thus, there will be more seats in peak time than offered by the present double deck service. The off-peak seating figure is lower, but trains are usually far from full off-peak, so getting a seat is rarely a problem. The ultimate potential capacity of the metro is 2 minute headways with eight-car trains, that's 15,120 seats per hour.

Once Bankstown line commuters emerge from under the welter of scare tactics from opponents of the conversion and discover the truth, they'll have only good thoughts about the metro. They'll also appreciate the reliability.
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/ ... 60b41d214b

Union strikes could cause year-long delay for South West Metro

Sydney’s South West Metro line completion date could be delayed by up to a year as union workers thrown down tools, causing construction timeline blowouts as the industrial action continues.
James O'Doherty
and
John Rolfe
2 min read
August 31, 2022 - 8:03PM

Metro services to Sydney’s South West could be delayed by up to a year due to union industrial action, in a further blow to commuters left fuming by rolling train strikes over a mothballed $2.8 billion intercity fleet.

Amid the rail strikes that have crippled the train network, Electrical Trade Union workers have also refused to carry out certain electrical work on the South West Metro construction, causing extensive delays and cost blowouts worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Government sources said the bans on electrical work have caused a cascading effect which could mean the first South West Metro service on the Sydenham to Bankstown line could be delayed by up to a year, until 2025.

And despite the rail unions insisting rolling strikes are about safety concerns, the ETU is also using current negotiations to demand that union superannuation fund Cbus – chaired by Wayne Swan – becomes the “default superfund for electrical workers”.

Treasurer Matt Kean accused the ETU of trying to “derail” a project that has nothing to do with the new intercity fleet, at the centre of Wednesday’s major strike.

“Like the Rail, Tram and Bus Union (RTBU) that is holding the travelling public hostage with Claassens’ calendar of industrial action, the ETU is working equally hard to derail projects that have absolutely nothing to do with the new intercity fleet,” he said.

The RTBU’s refusal to operate the New Intercity Fleet is at the centre of the stalled negotiations which led to the train network operating at just 25 per cent capacity on Wednesday.

“The (ETU’s) delays will impact residents in Sydney’s southwest the most but the costs will eventually impact every taxpayer in this state,” Mr Kean said.

The ETU’s action includes “switching bans” – where members refuse to turn off electricity for construction work.

The union said that the bans had been in place since November last year due to an ongoing wage dispute with the government, and were not related to the New Intercity Fleet.

As part of their negotiations, the union wants a pay increase of 3.5 per cent per year.

Meanwhile, the rail union strikes are set to add about $85 million to the cost of train station accessibility upgrades.

Transport for NSW figures released by Regional Transport Minister Sam Farraway reveal “protected industrial action” by the Rail, Tram and Bus Union added $45.5m to “transport access program” projects costs up to mid June, due to delays.

That figure is estimated to grow by another $39.2m by mid October, according to the TfNSW advice.

It is not known how many projects have been affected.

A Budget Estimates hearing on Wednesday afternoon was told that improvements to Point Clare station on the Central Coast had been set back by two months due to the ongoing strikes.

TfNSW deputy secretary Camilla Drover said “unfortunately because of the protected industrial action we are two months further late on that project”.
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boronia
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

And despite the rail unions insisting rolling strikes are about safety concerns, the ETU is also using current negotiations to demand that union superannuation fund Cbus – chaired by Wayne Swan – becomes the “default superfund for electrical workers”.
Workers are free to chose their preferred fund, why does any one company need to be a forced default?
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Aurora
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Aurora »

Must be some kind of deal between the two to want that?
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Scott4570
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Scott4570 »

In most cases, each Industry will setup a Superannuation Fund for all of their Employees.
Some individuals just starting out with their Careers will not necessarily concern themselves with the best or most appropriate Super Fund.

Employers need to pay the Super Guarantee Contribution to a Fund, and without the Employee specifying a particular Fund, then the Employer Contribution will go to that Industry Fund.

If that Industry Super Fund is not performing, then a subsequent Fund will be sought.
Of course, it can be debatable if the Industry is seeking a new Fund just because of the Managers or Directors behind that new Fund.
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

An interesting video from the running-in of the metro, showing the ghost "relay drivers" reversing a train in 23 seconds, including opening and shutting the doors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPW9ZG0ZIYI

How long does it take the driver and guard of a suburban train to walk from end to end and reverse the train?
moa999
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by moa999 »

If you had a new driver waiting to go at the other end would be a lot quicker... Probably not that quick though.

But does show that you can make single track turns more efficient. (Eg. If you ever need to up frequency at Dulwich Hill LR)
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 1:44 am If you had a new driver waiting to go at the other end would be a lot quicker... Probably not that quick though.

But does show that you can make single track turns more efficient. (Eg. If you ever need to up frequency at Dulwich Hill LR)
On this new light rail system, most of the conditions are there for automation of the trams. They should consider it.

Relay drivers (and in Sydney, that would require relay guards too) would add to the already astronomical operating costs of crewed trains.
Scott4570
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Scott4570 »

At a Terminal Point, where a Train will change direction, a Suburban Driver has the following time allowance to change ends:-
1/ 5 minutes for a 8car train.
2/ 4 minutes for a 4car train.
If a Relay Driver is required, 2 minutes will be given for one Driver to cut-out and another Driver to cut-in.
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Scott4570 wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:47 pm At a Terminal Point, where a Train will change direction, a Suburban Driver has the following time allowance to change ends:-
1/ 5 minutes for a 8car train.
2/ 4 minutes for a 4car train.
If a Relay Driver is required, 2 minutes will be given for one Driver to cut-out and another Driver to cut-in.
That's a huge difference. A tram will take at least three minutes to reverse, depending how long it is.
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jpp42
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by jpp42 »

tonyp wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:31 pm Relay drivers (and in Sydney, that would require relay guards too) would add to the already astronomical operating costs of crewed trains.
Of course, you could have dual-qualified guards/drivers that simply change roles without swapping ends? I seem to remember that Metro Light Rail may have done this on occasion in the olden days (the driver changing into a CSO and vv).

I shudder to imagine the angst that would cause if you proposed it to the unions for Sydney Trains!
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boronia
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

I thought drivers had to start off as guards, then work their way up through the ranks? Has that changed?

(I recall years ago, elec train drivers were recruited from the loco driver ranks).

And I'd guess drivers have a higher pay rate than guards, so the union would insist on the higher rate being paid at all times?
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jpp42
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by jpp42 »

boronia wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:48 pm I thought drivers had to start off as guards, then work their way up through the ranks? Has that changed?
Yes, that changed a few years back, although guards are welcome to apply to be drivers, many drivers are hired directly and do not receive guard training.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by lunchbox »

TRACK DIAGRAM
.....doesn't seem to be available on the 'net....
So, apart from the scissors Xing north of B'roo, what other turnouts are there between Chatswood and Sydenham?
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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

lunchbox wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:10 pm TRACK DIAGRAM
.....doesn't seem to be available on the 'net....
So, apart from the scissors Xing north of B'roo, what other turnouts are there between Chatswood and Sydenham?
915840
For that matter along the whole line. I don't think I've ever seen any information on this.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

Just posting this whilst passing on no opinion:

https://theconversation.com/costs-of-sy ... its-188210
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Glen wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:19 pm Just posting this whilst passing on no opinion:

https://theconversation.com/costs-of-sy ... its-188210
ITLS specialises in buses doesn't it? The authors don't seem to know a lot about trains. They seem to be completely unaware that the Bankstown line is part of a future route to Liverpool, for which much higher capacity is required, which sort of negates the validity of the analysis.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:06 am ITLS specialises in buses doesn't it? The authors don't seem to know a lot about trains. They seem to be completely unaware that the Bankstown line is part of a future route to Liverpool, for which much higher capacity is required, which sort of negates the validity of the analysis.
The Liverpool extension of the metro runs into issues at the old south line junction at Cabramatta if they pick to convert the Bankstown to Liverpool section of the Bankstown line corridor to metro
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Aurora »

If they have any plans to extend the line, then their work now at Bankstown is a waste, unless they plan to close the connection between Sefton Park Junctions and Birrong or Bankstown.

Mind you, they could always run buses permanently between Regents Park and Bankstown, run the Metro semi or fully express to Liverpool and have the trains run Lidcombe or City to Liverpool full time which would remove much of the complexity of the rail network in this area (just freight to contend with).
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Aurora wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:10 am If they have any plans to extend the line, then their work now at Bankstown is a waste, unless they plan to close the connection between Sefton Park Junctions and Birrong or Bankstown.

Mind you, they could always run buses permanently between Regents Park and Bankstown, run the Metro semi or fully express to Liverpool and have the trains run Lidcombe or City to Liverpool full time which would remove much of the complexity of the rail network in this area (just freight to contend with).
The only freight that uses the main corridor from that junction would be the Minto Qube Intermodal transfers
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Aurora wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:10 am If they have any plans to extend the line, then their work now at Bankstown is a waste, unless they plan to close the connection between Sefton Park Junctions and Birrong or Bankstown.

Mind you, they could always run buses permanently between Regents Park and Bankstown, run the Metro semi or fully express to Liverpool and have the trains run Lidcombe or City to Liverpool full time which would remove much of the complexity of the rail network in this area (just freight to contend with).
The Bankstown metro station is temporary. They have a reservation on the south side of Bankstown station for a two-level underground box for both the Liverpool extension and the proposed line from Kogarah. The Liverpool extension would run past Bankstown airport and Chipping Norton.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

The Bankstown Line metro was originally proposed to extend to Cabramatta and Lidcombe via the existing lines with a separate branch to Hurstville. After further investigation, it was found to be impractical because of conflicting movements with other rail uses and the branches to Cabramatta, Lidcombe and Hurstville were subsequently dropped. The focus instead shifted to a direct link from Bankstown to Liverpool. AFAIK, a detailed route hasn't yet been finalised. It would have to be all underground as it crosses the Georges River flood plain and that in itself poses some challenges in locating stations along the route.

In the meantime, when the metro opens (Sydenham to Bankstown is now likely 2025), the former CityRail (Sydney Trains) Liverpool via Regents Park service to and from the CBD will be restored, albeit via the Inner West Local, and a shuttle service introduced between Bankstown and Lidcombe. There will no longer be a direct service from Liverpool to Bankstown and interchange will be required at Regents Park. If and when the metro is extended from Bankstown on the more direct route to Liverpool, and that is by no means certain in the immediate future when there are other competing metro projects, there will no doubt be a further review of the Sydney Trains Liverpool services. But that's a decision for another day.
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