Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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boronia
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

Hasn't the current government hinted that it might delay the T3 conversion as part of its cost-cutting?
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Linto63
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

The government is considering extending the T1 in two stages; Chatswood to Sydenham first with the extension to Bankstown a bit later.

Government eyes two-stage opening to flagship Metro amid rising costs Sydney Morning Herald, 3 May 2022
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

The metro line is being extended in one simultaneous stage. They're considering opening it in two stages.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Is It going to be determined by the election date?
It represents a huge revolutionary leap in Sydney's very politically charged transport system.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: The metro line is being extended in one simultaneous stage. They're considering opening it in two stages.
Difference being that the Chatswood to Sydenham section is nearly complete in many parts, while the only significant work on stations beyond Sydenham has been some early works at Bankstown, although their has been some work on signalling systems. Hence why a staggered opening is being considered.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

There's more than that going on along the Bankstown line, like station modifications including lifts. There's been a new platform built at Bankstown.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

The lift fitting would have occurred irrespective of whether the line was being converted to Metro standards as part of the programme to make all Sydney stations DDA compliant. Regardless of what work has been completed, evidently the amount still to be done is significant enough for the government to be considering deferring it in response to escalating costs.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:20 am The lift fitting would have occurred irrespective of whether the line was being converted to Metro standards as part of the programme to make all Sydney stations DDA compliant. Regardless of what work has been completed, evidently the amount still to be done is significant enough for the government to be considering deferring it in response to escalating costs.
Further, the Bankstown Line still has to allow existing Sydney Trains' services to continue while modifications are carried out. As the government's intention is now to initially open the metro line to Sydenham in 2024 and the extension to Bankstown in 2025, what's the bet that a possible incoming Labor government at next years state election will can the Bankstown Line conversion? Work already done won't inhibit the continuing operation of Sydney Trains' services until the last minute when the line is handed over for metro commissioning.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Could probs be reversed. They canned the metro stage to Balmain and that cost a lot more.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

Transtopic wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:48 pm
Linto63 wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:20 am The lift fitting would have occurred irrespective of whether the line was being converted to Metro standards as part of the programme to make all Sydney stations DDA compliant. Regardless of what work has been completed, evidently the amount still to be done is significant enough for the government to be considering deferring it in response to escalating costs.
Further, the Bankstown Line still has to allow existing Sydney Trains' services to continue while modifications are carried out. As the government's intention is now to initially open the metro line to Sydenham in 2024 and the extension to Bankstown in 2025, what's the bet that a possible incoming Labor government at next years state election will can the Bankstown Line conversion? Work already done won't inhibit the continuing operation of Sydney Trains' services until the last minute when the line is handed over for metro commissioning.
Aren't the plans intended to close the whole line for 6 months for the final conversion, with bus services feeding into adjoining lines?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:02 pm
Transtopic wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:48 pm
Further, the Bankstown Line still has to allow existing Sydney Trains' services to continue while modifications are carried out. As the government's intention is now to initially open the metro line to Sydenham in 2024 and the extension to Bankstown in 2025, what's the bet that a possible incoming Labor government at next years state election will can the Bankstown Line conversion? Work already done won't inhibit the continuing operation of Sydney Trains' services until the last minute when the line is handed over for metro commissioning.
Aren't the plans intended to close the whole line for 6 months for the final conversion, with bus services feeding into adjoining lines?
I'm not sure how long the line will be closed for final conversion, but it's not likely before 2025, which will be well after the state election next year.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Don't count on the Labor Party canning it, they changed their mind after the last election. They have an interest in seeing the line converted too, not least for the benefits it will bring to the suburban system from not having Bankstown trains adding to the load around the city circle. It's in everybody's interest to get the suburban system working better by taking some of the pressure off it.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: what's the bet that a possible incoming Labor government at next years state election will can the Bankstown Line conversion?
No chance, too far advanced.
boronia wrote: Aren't the plans intended to close the whole line for 6 months for the final conversion, with bus services feeding into adjoining lines?
There will be some sort of sustained shutdown in the final phase as happened with the Chatswood - Epping line.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by moa999 »

I thought it was too be reduced below six months after they changed the scope (and kept curved platforms)

But still some shutdown required to install PSDs, new signalling and realign track (particularly at Bankstown)


While the Labor ministers might not like it, I think they'd recognise it's needed for improvements on T2/T8.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Myrtone »

I wonder what all those living on the Bankstown line will think once their double deckers are replaced by metro trains with way fewer seats.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by moa999 »

After a few months of buses I suspect most of them will be ecstatic to be back on a train.

But like many public transport changes some will benefit, and some will lose.

Someone who lives at one of the express-skip stops (say Punchbowl) and works at Barrangaroo or say near Chifley Tower will have far more frequent services, still a high chance of a seat, a quicker journey time and a quicker walk at the city end.

Someone who lives at Campsie and works say East of Town Hall station or at Circular Quay gets similar frequency, lower chance of a seat v double decker, a slightly quicker journey but a longer walk unless they change at Sydenham or Central for example.

And longer term everyone on the T2 and T8 will benefit.

But overall it's going to be a massive improvement to system capacity and frequency at a large number of stations.

Last edited by moa999 on Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:46 pm After a few months of buses I suspect most of them will be ecstatic to be back on a train.

But like many public transport changes some will benefit, and some will lose.

Someone who lives at one of the express-skip stops (say Punchbowl) and works at Barrangaroo or say near Chifley Tower will have far more frequent services, still a high chance of a seat, a quicker journey time and a quicker walk at the city end.

Someone who lives at Campsie and works say East of Town Hall station or at Circular Quay gets similar frequency, lower chance of a seat v double decker, a slightly quicker journey but a longer walk unless they change at Sydenham or Central for example.

And longer term everyone on the T2 and T8 will benefit.
As I pointed out in another topic today, the Bankstown line metro will have an opening service in peaks that provides 5,670 seats per hour - at every station. The present suburban service provides 3,600 seats per hour at stations bypassed by expresses (like Punchbowl), or 5,400 if you're lucky enough to be at one of the stations served by all trains (like Campsie). The metro trains will stop at every station, provide greater frequency, hence more seats per hour and still provide a journey time that will be no slower than the present express services and faster than present all-stops services. I'd say people along the line will be delighted at the service improvement.

The point about destinations at the other end is valid to a point, but Central is the same destination for both, Pitt St is between Town Hall and Museum and Martin Place is close to Wynyard and St James. Sydney Metro provides its own take on travel times from stations on the Bankstown line, e.g.

https://www.sydneymetro.info/station/campsie-station
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:28 pm As I pointed out in another topic today, the Bankstown line metro will have an opening service in peaks that provides 5,670 seats per hour - at every station. The present suburban service provides 3,600 seats per hour at stations bypassed by expresses (like Punchbowl), or 5,400 if you're lucky enough to be at one of the stations served by all trains (like Campsie). The metro trains will stop at every station, provide greater frequency, hence more seats per hour and still provide a journey time that will be no slower than the present express services and faster than present all-stops services. I'd say people along the line will be delighted at the service improvement.
Putting aside the issue of drivers/guards, it's about time you stopped your misrepresentation of the true comparisons between the proposed metro operation on the Bankstown Line and the existing Sydney Trains' service. A more valid comparison would be with an upgraded Sydney Trains' service with digital signalling and ATO, which you conveniently ignore, as does the government. It similarly misrepresented comparisons with metro on the North West Rail Link, comparing it with existing services, without acknowledging the enhanced performance with upgrading on a new line.

As it stands, the Bankstown line is capable of running 12tph (currently 10tph) with existing signalling. That equates to approximately 10,800 seats per hour in an all stations pattern, which is almost double your alleged initial seating capacity of the metro. There's no reason why existing services couldn't run in an all stations stopping pattern from Lidcombe, if Liverpool services are redirected to the city via Regents Park, which is what is proposed if the metro conversion proceeds.

A digital upgrade would likely increase the service frequency to 15tph to match the metro in an all stations pattern, which would equate to a seating capacity of 13,500 per hour, compared with an 8 car metro train of 7,560 per hour. Journey times would also be reduced with the upgrade allowing existing rolling stock to operate to its specified performance level. Anyone that believes the Bankstown Line metro would warrant more than 15tph, let alone 30tph, is delusional. There's no guarantee that further urban intensification along the line will proceed to the extent proposed, as it's being resisted by the local community.

You are indeed correct in stating that the Bankstown Line conversion will be a test case, so let's wait and see how it pans out. I'm still waiting to hear about other legacy rail networks or lines being successfully converted to driverless metro operation.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by jpp42 »

You reference "seating capacity" but is that really the correct metric? I thought with Metro we had to change the comparison point since there are so few seats, but lots of standee capacity. Metro says their full capacity is 40,000 per hour but you list only 7560 - which is accurate?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

jpp42 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:42 am You reference "seating capacity" but is that really the correct metric? I thought with Metro we had to change the comparison point since there are so few seats, but lots of standee capacity. Metro says their full capacity is 40,000 per hour but you list only 7560 - which is accurate?
I agree absolutely. Normally I use total capacity because that's actually what we need to know in evaluating transport capacity. However, seating capacity always comes up in the double deck debate, usually on the nonsensical basis of a one to one train comparison and I always have to point out that it's seats per hour that people need to consider, not seats per train. The ultimate capacity of the metro with 8 car trains and 2 minute headways is 15,120 seats per hour or about 45,000 total passengers per hour per direction. Those figures in my earlier post refer to the opening capacity on the Bankstown line post conversion, based on 4 minute headways and 6 car trains.

I'm sceptical that these technology improvements to the suburban service, like ATO, will get past the RTBU, but if they do, where would all those extra Bankstown trains go on the city circle, amongst the other (also presumably expanded) services there? The metro conversion is partly for the purpose of relieving the existing congestion. Nobody is talking about piling more congestion into the city circle, especially with trains with poor dwell times.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Transtopic wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:08 am I'm still waiting to hear about other legacy rail networks or lines being successfully converted to driverless metro operation.
Quickly off the top of my head, there's Paris RER A which was converted to GoA2 in 1989 and there's some further technology upgrade supposed to be coming this decade. The reason for the first upgrade was that the service was struggling with both demand and dwell times, so they wanted more frequent service and to free up the driver to concentrate on the doors (no guards of course). Don't forget that these double deck trains have lots of seats stripped out in order to fit a third door into each carriage. Passenger exchange is an ongoing issue and you might have seen from the journey time comparison I posted a while ago that RER A struggles with passenger exchange and the journey time is quite slow. Indeed, the Sydney suburban journey times are not far behind those of RER A, which suggests that automation/resignalling won't achieve a lot on that front, only frequency. Sydney metro journey times are way quicker than those of both our suburbans and RER A.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: Putting aside the issue of drivers/guards, it's about time you stopped your misrepresentation of the true comparisons between the proposed metro operation on the Bankstown Line and the existing Sydney Trains' service.
Agree, comparing apples to oranges to suit a narrative achieves nothing.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Vid update on Chatswood dive site
https://youtu.be/uxX6WkYRwSQ
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Myrtone »

Transtopic wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:08 amYou are indeed correct in stating that the Bankstown Line conversion will be a test case, so let's wait and see how it pans out. I'm still waiting to hear about other legacy rail networks or lines being successfully converted to driverless metro operation.
Are you also waiting to hear about anyone else abandoning large and comfortable suburban trains with metros with less seating but still covering suburban distances?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

jpp42 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:42 am You reference "seating capacity" but is that really the correct metric? I thought with Metro we had to change the comparison point since there are so few seats, but lots of standee capacity. Metro says their full capacity is 40,000 per hour but you list only 7560 - which is accurate?
The discussion was in the context of comparative seating capacity for the respective modes and not total capacity. Assuming the Bankstown Line metro proceeds, it will operate initially with 6 car trains at a frequency of 15tph in the peak, with provision to increase to 8 cars if and when the demand warrants it, although apparently the stations are only being modified for 6 cars. I'm sceptical that the level of demand would ever warrant 30tph, which means that the latent capacity is wasted unless the metro line is branched from Sydenham. The same goes for the north side.

A report by Douglas Economics was commissioned by Transport for NSW to model the train and passenger capacity for the Sydney rail network. It estimated that the total peak capacity for the Waratah DD sets was 1,400, based on observations on the Western Line and contrary to the government's assertion of 1,200. It also estimated the total peak capacity of an 8 car SD set was 1,120, with standing room of 3ppsm. Further, it claimed that the maximum or crush load capacity of DD was 1,750 and SD of 1,350, with standing room of 4ppsm, which would only be feasible for major events like trips to Sydney Olympic Park.

The government's estimate of 1,200 passengers for the maximum capacity of a DD train is based on an arbitrary figure of around 33% of seating capacity imported from the UK, which has no relevance to operations in Sydney. DD services in Sydney regularly exceed this so called benchmark (pre-Covid). The government has consistently understated the carrying capacity and frequency of DD compared with SD metro, without acknowledging the greater carrying capacity of DD with infrastructure upgrades. The last I heard, the metro's peak capacity is 40,000pph @ 30tph, not that that's ever likely to happen without branches merging through the CBD core, and not 45,000 as suggested by tonyp. That figure just keeps on creeping up.

In the context of the Bankstown Line based on the above figures, and at a similar frequency of 15tph for both modes in an all stations stopping pattern, a DD service would provide 13,500 seats per hour and peak line capacity of 21,000pph. A SD metro would provide 7,560 seats per hour and peak line capacity of 16,800pph. That exposes the lie that SD metro has greater carrying capacity, as well as seating capacity, at a level of frequency appropriate for the demand. The proposed digital signalling upgrade to the existing network will increase services on the City Circle by another 10tph, including the current 2 spare paths on the CC Inner via Museum, which could be shared by T2, T3 andT8. It's too late now, but the new cross harbour tunnel would have provided greater benefit for the broader rail network, which was the original intent, if it was compatible with it. It would have been better if the Airport Line as part of the existing network linked with the new cross harbour tunnel, which was the original Metropolitan Rail Expansion Project (MREP) and which linked the North West Rail Link with the South West Rail Link via the East Hills Line.
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