Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

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Aurora
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Aurora »

It was a result of political landscape changes throughout the 2000s.

Makes you wonder if Labor had got their finger out and actually delivered it in their 15-odd years in power how different the landscape would be today.
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tonyp
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Aurora wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:55 pm It was a result of political landscape changes throughout the 2000s.

Makes you wonder if Labor had got their finger out and actually delivered it in their 15-odd years in power how different the landscape would be today.
More the long-term planning landscape which identified the northwest as the next major region for urban growth. Then followed somewhat fumbled transport planning as Labor visualised suburban rail for the NW corridor while, at the same time, kicking off a metro line which also pointed NW along a different corridor, but stopped somewhat short. The Coalition government very smartly identified the metro option as the one that would deliver higher capacity, greater frequency and faster journeys, so that was the one chosen for the original NW corridor and the Victoria Rd corridor was dropped.

With the benefit of hindsight, one can see a couple of things that could have been done better. The Chatswood-Epping alignment under the Lane Cove River and all that extra tunneled distance at both ends so that double deckers could climb the grades (which they barely could in any case) has simply added unnecessary distance to the metro service, although it's still at least a few minutes faster than the original double deck service. The other issue was that the planning was done under Labor and the Coalition adopted that as it stood in order to get started quickly. So the line ended at a depot at Tallawong, just short of a connection to the Richmond line at Schofields.

With further hindsight, one now sees major urban development emerging at Box Hill (which will probably be the last major development before Windsor because of floodplain) and my own feeling is that the metro should have continued along Windsor Rd to Box Hill before turning south towards Riverstone, which would also give it a more direct route to Marsden Park and St Marys. Anyway, too late for that now I think.

The buses connecting Box Hill to Rouse Hill are going to be very busy and I note that there is already a reservation for a busway corridor through the western part of Rouse Hill towards Box Hill. In addition, they need much stronger bus links from Rouse Hill out to Windsor and beyond (across the river), otherwise we will just get commuters continuing to drive and the park+ride arrangements on the metro are completely inadequate to accommodate that sort of demand. I hope the bus planners have their thinking caps on already.
moa999
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by moa999 »


Linto63 wrote: Since then as part of the winding down of the PFI, the majority of the surcharge flows to the treasury. So it remains because the government like the revenue.
But equally the amount paid for Mascot and Green Square would have increased substantially.

Full ownership reverts in mid-2030 anyway.
Wouldn't be surprised to see it stopped when the Airport West rail link opens to give both airports equal treatment.

Though I do wonder whether there might also be some penalties payable to tollroad operators hidden in their contracts.
Transtopic
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:21 pm
Aurora wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:55 pm It was a result of political landscape changes throughout the 2000s.

Makes you wonder if Labor had got their finger out and actually delivered it in their 15-odd years in power how different the landscape would be today.
More the long-term planning landscape which identified the northwest as the next major region for urban growth. Then followed somewhat fumbled transport planning as Labor visualised suburban rail for the NW corridor while, at the same time, kicking off a metro line which also pointed NW along a different corridor, but stopped somewhat short. The Coalition government very smartly identified the metro option as the one that would deliver higher capacity, greater frequency and faster journeys, so that was the one chosen for the original NW corridor and the Victoria Rd corridor was dropped.

With the benefit of hindsight, one can see a couple of things that could have been done better. The Chatswood-Epping alignment under the Lane Cove River and all that extra tunneled distance at both ends so that double deckers could climb the grades (which they barely could in any case) has simply added unnecessary distance to the metro service, although it's still at least a few minutes faster than the original double deck service. The other issue was that the planning was done under Labor and the Coalition adopted that as it stood in order to get started quickly. So the line ended at a depot at Tallawong, just short of a connection to the Richmond line at Schofields.

With further hindsight, one now sees major urban development emerging at Box Hill (which will probably be the last major development before Windsor because of floodplain) and my own feeling is that the metro should have continued along Windsor Rd to Box Hill before turning south towards Riverstone, which would also give it a more direct route to Marsden Park and St Marys. Anyway, too late for that now I think.

The buses connecting Box Hill to Rouse Hill are going to be very busy and I note that there is already a reservation for a busway corridor through the western part of Rouse Hill towards Box Hill. In addition, they need much stronger bus links from Rouse Hill out to Windsor and beyond (across the river), otherwise we will just get commuters continuing to drive and the park+ride arrangements on the metro are completely inadequate to accommodate that sort of demand. I hope the bus planners have their thinking caps on already.
While I'm reluctant to regurgitate old arguments, it will come as no surprise that I disagree with your assessment of the North West Rail Link outcome. As you know, the LNP in the lead-up to the 2011 State Election, promised to build the North West Rail Link as an extension of the then CityRail network after Labor's metro proposals, particularly the disastrous truncated Central to Rozelle metro. Even in its dying days, Labor also recognised the error of its ways when KK became Premier and changed its policy to revert to the original North West Rail Link as part of the CityRail network. They even committed to revisit the initial proposal to branch the NWRL from the Northern Line between Cheltenham and Beecroft which they abandoned after a concerted campaign by the local NIMBYs because of the quadruplication of the Northern Line, within the existing rail corridor, between Epping and the NWRL tunnel portal. I'm still dumbfounded why they gave in so easily, when it's in one of the safest Liberal seats in the state, and they had nothing to lose by pressing ahead with their original plans.

After their election victory, the LNP quickly commenced the community consultation process for the NWRL as promised, but after closing, it mysteriously morphed into the metro proposal including converting the ECRL without any further consultation. Spurious claims were made about the superior performance of the metro compared with the existing CityRail DD network, without any comparison with an upgraded network on a new line with digital signalling, ATO and modern station design, enabling higher frequencies and higher speeds. Of course the superior seating capacity as well as overall capacity of the DD trains, particularly for the longer distance journeys, was downplayed. The impact on the residual rail network by converting the ECRL was completely ignored. It was all based on a lie to support an ideological agenda and still is to this day. As an example, one of the primary justifications for Metro West is that it will relieve congestion on the T1 Western Line. It will from Parramatta to the CBD, but will do bugger all west of Parramatta where there is the most need, without forced interchange, which I don't believe the general public yet fully appreciates. They've been conned by the government's spin.

In hindsight, if the NWRL was to be a metro, then I would have preferred Labor's North West Metro which serviced a new corridor to the CBD along Victoria Rd, leaving the CityRail network, including the ECRL, intact. It would also be a faster journey to the CBD rather than the circuitous route via the North Shore. Since the metro protagonists keep banging on about the need to interchange, then it shouldn't be a problem interchanging from the North West at Epping to Macquarie Park and North Shore destinations. I suspect most people would be travelling to the CBD anyway, as evidenced by the previous direct bus services on the M2. Many people from the North West still drive to Macquarie Park with its abundant parking.

You raised the matter of the steep grades under the Lane Cove River for the ECRL, which is another example of where Labor failed in capitulating to the NIMBYs, instead of the original scheme for a high level bridge, which could have been incorporated with a long term plan for a high level road bridge connecting Delhi Rd to the Pacific Highway and Boundary St at Roseville. Again, it is a safe Liberal seat which they would have no chance of winning. What did they have to lose?

With regard to Box Hill, they should have stuck with a previous plan to extend the NWRL to Vineyard via Box Hill, which would have enabled faster direct services to the CBD from Richmond without the need to interchange if it had remained part of the existing network, albeit upgraded.

The landscape could have indeed have been very different if Labor had carried through with their original proposals, including the Metropolitan Rail Expansion Program (MREP), which provided for a direct rail link between the North West Rail Link and South West Rail Link via a new cross harbour rail link and the Airport Line. Alas, that's no longer an option.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:09 am
After their election victory, the LNP quickly commenced the community consultation process for the NWRL as promised, but after closing, it mysteriously morphed into the metro proposal including converting the ECRL without any further consultation.
Just to clarify the process, the Labor-initiated planning process (that spanned an election), application (including community consultation) and planning approval was for a passenger railway. That's basically all that the planning system needs to know, other than it's electric and doesn't spew pollution and noise all over the place. The actual railway technology to be used is a separate matter in the hands of the proponent. The initial political and public understanding was certainly that it was to be a double deck commuter railway as already existed on the suburban system. The Coalition changed that technology to a rapid transit commuter railway, as was their right. That's basically an administrative decision and doesn't require a new planning or public consultation process. There's nothing untoward about that and the result is a superior operation, very much liked by its users, no matter what you may think.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

So the idea for the metro wasn't thought up because of Julia Gillard not wanting to give the then newly elected NSW liberal government any federal money to help out to build the NWRL. Didn't federal labor proposed the Parramatta-Chatswood rail link as a 2010 election promise
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:10 am So the idea for the metro wasn't thought up because of Julia Gillard not wanting to give the then newly elected NSW liberal government any federal money to help out to build the NWRL. Didn't federal labor proposed the Parramatta-Chatswood rail link as a 2010 election promise
The development of metro lines/network had a gestation period of about a decade under the previous Labor government, from the first proposals in 2001 (Christie) to the "Anzac Line" and subsequent proposals in the late 2000s. The concept was well-entrenched in NSW transport planning thinking by the time the Coalition won the 2011 election. The Parramatta-Epping rail link funding by the Feds was criticised for not being in Infrastructure Australia's priority list and the funding agreement with the Feds was set up in early 2011 as one of Keneally's desperate late bids to save the election. By that time, planning for the NW rail line by the NSW Labor government was already underway, with the following Coalition government simply adopting the EIS already in preparation much as is. Their major tweak, iirc, was to add a station at Tallawong at the entrance to the depot site. Planning for an extension to Schofields would have delayed the process for at least a year so, in lieu, provision was made on the ground to extend the line in future.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

moa999 wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see it stopped when the Airport West rail link opens to give both airports equal treatment.
Don't bet, something being paid off or reverting back to government ownership at the conclusion of a BOOT deal doesn't mean the end of tolls / levies, witness the Harbour Bridge and Tunnel. Or them returning, e.g. the M4.

Re the DD vs Metro argument, as stated it has been done to death. Suffice to say the North West line would have been successful regardless of which mode eventuated. As to which political party is better at delivering, those who are died in the wool supporters one way or the other will always over-egg the achievements of their party and gloss over the failings. A more objective view shows both sides have delivered projects well and badly.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:43 am Re the DD vs Metro argument, as stated it has been done to death. Suffice to say the North West line would have been successful regardless of which mode eventuated. As to which political party is better at delivering, those who are died in the wool supporters one way or the other will always over-egg the achievements of their party and gloss over the failings. A more objective view shows both sides have delivered projects well and badly.
The NW line would have been successful as a DD line, but would have hit a capacity ceiling much earlier, which in turn constrains the urban development opportunities and housing availability across that sector. Housing availability is somewhat of an issue in NSW, as is providing jobs within the sector.

I think an historical review over the past century will show that conservative governments have delivered better and more effectively on public transport than Labor governments. It's a peculiarity of NSW, as the situation is often the opposite in other states. Following Minns' and Haylen's social media as I do, I see no sign of that depressing pattern changing any time soon.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

I for one won't miss interchanging at Chatswood.

When an Up Metro arrives just as an Up Shore is about to depart, the Guard will usually hold the train.

When a Down Shore arrives just as a Down Metro is about to driverless its way out of the station ............ well you can probably guess the rest.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: I think an historical review over the past century will show that conservative governments have delivered better and more effectively on public transport than Labor governments.
Depend on how you want to classify and prioritise projects. Both sides have made good and bad decisions.
Glen wrote: When a Down Shore arrives just as a Down Metro is about to driverless its way out of the station ............ well you can probably guess the rest.
That's the downside of automation, not really much that can be done.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Upside of you're in the Metro.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Glen wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:25 pm When a Down Shore arrives just as a Down Metro is about to driverless its way out of the station ............ well you can probably guess the rest.
At least you'll have a metro train every few minutes. Not like when I lived north of Hornsby and the Down Northern line trains were timetabled to just miss the connecting train from the Shore northwards and you had to wait 25 minutes for the next train!
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

10 minutes actually, but yes better than 25.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:56 am
Transtopic wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:09 am
After their election victory, the LNP quickly commenced the community consultation process for the NWRL as promised, but after closing, it mysteriously morphed into the metro proposal including converting the ECRL without any further consultation.
Just to clarify the process, the Labor-initiated planning process (that spanned an election), application (including community consultation) and planning approval was for a passenger railway. That's basically all that the planning system needs to know, other than it's electric and doesn't spew pollution and noise all over the place. The actual railway technology to be used is a separate matter in the hands of the proponent. The initial political and public understanding was certainly that it was to be a double deck commuter railway as already existed on the suburban system. The Coalition changed that technology to a rapid transit commuter railway, as was their right. That's basically an administrative decision and doesn't require a new planning or public consultation process. There's nothing untoward about that and the result is a superior operation, very much liked by its users, no matter what you may think.
The Labor government initiated the planning process for the Concept Plan for the western portion of the NWRL from Epping to Rouse Hill as a first stage, which was approved by the DPI in 2008, and was based on the North West Metro project along the Victoria Rd corridor to the CBD. At that stage, there was no direct connection to the ECRL and separate platforms were proposed at Epping on the western side of Beecroft Rd, with underground pedestrian connections to the existing station on the eastern side, and provision for future extension to Ryde and Victoria Rd to the CBD. It was clearly a metro proposal and not intended to be part of the CityRail network.

When Kristina Keneally toppled Nathan Rees as Premier in December 2009, the previous metro strategy, which included the disastrous Central to Rozelle Metro, was abandoned and later in 2010 the government reinstated the NWRL in its policy as an extension of the heavy rail network. As I mentioned in my previous post, they also committed to reassess the initial proposal to branch the NWRL from the Northern Line between Cheltenham and Beecroft, which they had abandoned earlier, and which would have avoided the steep alignment between Epping and Cherrybrook under Devlin's Creek.

Upon coming to power, the new LNP government, with Gladys Berejiklian as Transport Minister, adopted the previous planning approval for the western section of the North West Metro concept under Labor and subsequently applied for planning approval to modify the previous metro approval to reinstate the line as an extension of the CityRail network, which was a requirement of the Director-General of Planning, as well as connecting directly with the ECRL at Epping; extending the line to Tallawong with a new station and stabling yard and other modifications to the alignment and station locations. It was clearly intended to be integrated with the CityRail network, or that was what the general public was led to believe.

If the Director-General of Planning required justification for modifying the original approval for the metro concept to heavy rail, then why should it not be the case for the opposite, particularly as it involved converting the ECRL to metro and impacted on services for the residual CityRail network? This should have required further community consultation. Your interpretation of events is misplaced.

You are also still ignoring the misinformation which was foisted on the public about the relative merits of the metro system compared with the existing CityRail DD network to paint it in a better light, without reference to the improved performance of the latter on a new upgraded line, not to mention the benefits with compatible operation on the broader rail network.
Last edited by Transtopic on Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:38 am
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:10 am So the idea for the metro wasn't thought up because of Julia Gillard not wanting to give the then newly elected NSW liberal government any federal money to help out to build the NWRL. Didn't federal labor proposed the Parramatta-Chatswood rail link as a 2010 election promise
The development of metro lines/network had a gestation period of about a decade under the previous Labor government, from the first proposals in 2001 (Christie) to the "Anzac Line" and subsequent proposals in the late 2000s. The concept was well-entrenched in NSW transport planning thinking by the time the Coalition won the 2011 election. The Parramatta-Epping rail link funding by the Feds was criticised for not being in Infrastructure Australia's priority list and the funding agreement with the Feds was set up in early 2011 as one of Keneally's desperate late bids to save the election. By that time, planning for the NW rail line by the NSW Labor government was already underway, with the following Coalition government simply adopting the EIS already in preparation much as is. Their major tweak, iirc, was to add a station at Tallawong at the entrance to the depot site. Planning for an extension to Schofields would have delayed the process for at least a year so, in lieu, provision was made on the ground to extend the line in future.
Christie's 2001 metro proposals were long term plans for a separate network after potential upgrades and extensions to the existing heavy rail network had been completed. There were no plans to convert existing lines to metro and certainly no plans to extend metro lines to the outer fringes of the metropolitan area such as the North West or South West. As I mentioned in my previous post, Labor had abandoned the metro concept prior to the 2011 election, committing to build the NWRL as an extension of the existing CityRail network as originally proposed if they won the election (all a bit too late though).

The proposed funding for the Parramatta to Epping Rail Link by the Federal Government was a last minute attempt by the Gillard Labor Government to retain the seat of Parramatta in the 2010 Federal election, although it wasn't even on Infrastructure Australia's Priority List (then independent I might add). In the leadup to the 2011 State election, an agreement was reached with the Keneally Labor Government to fund $2.1b for the project shared 80/20.

After winning the State election, the new LNP Government applied to have the funding reallocated to the NWRL, as an extension of the existing network, but its application was refused by Infrastructure Australia because of an inadequate submission which was incomplete and lacked any robust analysis. Shortly after that, it mysteriously morphed into the metro concept we now have, without any further consultation. I'm usually not one to embrace conspiracy theories, but sometimes I wonder if this was a deliberate ploy to justify changing to the metro. Make of that what you will.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:05 am
Linto63 wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:43 am Re the DD vs Metro argument, as stated it has been done to death. Suffice to say the North West line would have been successful regardless of which mode eventuated. As to which political party is better at delivering, those who are died in the wool supporters one way or the other will always over-egg the achievements of their party and gloss over the failings. A more objective view shows both sides have delivered projects well and badly.
The NW line would have been successful as a DD line, but would have hit a capacity ceiling much earlier, which in turn constrains the urban development opportunities and housing availability across that sector. Housing availability is somewhat of an issue in NSW, as is providing jobs within the sector.
How so and is it ever likely that Metro Northwest would reach its capacity of 20tph (it's not 30tph), which an equivalent DD service would also be capable of, with double the number of seats and more comfort, which doesn't seem to register with most? In the interim period before the line was extended into the CBD, an upgraded DD service could easily match the metro's current 15tph in the peak, with up to 8tph continuing on the North Shore Line to the CBD with the upgraded signalling and the balance terminating at Chatswood requiring interchange as the metro currently does.

I can't see how a DD service would inhibit development opportunities. You're clutching at straws.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:55 pm
Glen wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:25 pm When a Down Shore arrives just as a Down Metro is about to driverless its way out of the station ............ well you can probably guess the rest.
At least you'll have a metro train every few minutes. Not like when I lived north of Hornsby and the Down Northern line trains were timetabled to just miss the connecting train from the Shore northwards and you had to wait 25 minutes for the next train!
What relevance does that have? Metro Northwest has a train every 4 minutes, potentially every 3 minutes, and the North Shore Line from Chatswood to the CBD every 3 minutes and potentially every 2 and a half minutes, not that it's ever likely to be needed when the metro is extended into the CBD.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by stupid_girl »

Glen wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:25 pm I for one won't miss interchanging at Chatswood.

When an Up Metro arrives just as an Up Shore is about to depart, the Guard will usually hold the train.

When a Down Shore arrives just as a Down Metro is about to driverless its way out of the station ............ well you can probably guess the rest.
I would rather have a tight timetable throughout the line rather than a slack timetable that allows holding the train.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/wee ... 5c2l8.html

‘Weekends are a lot busier’: Sydney’s first metro line bucks COVID trend

Commuters have flocked back to Sydney’s first driverless metro railway faster than other suburban rail lines since the pandemic led to a plunge in patronage across the rail network.

New figures also show stations on the Metro Northwest between Rouse Hill and Chatswood have climbed in the rankings against stations on other parts of the metropolitan rail network since the line opened in May 2019.

There were also more weekend trips by people using the 36-kilometre metro link to get to and from shopping areas in Sydney’s north-west.

In contrast, the existing double-decker train network is a long way from fully recovering from a slump in patronage during the worst of the pandemic. Town Hall station – still the city’s busiest – was down 46 per cent to about 54,400 people a day in October compared with three years earlier.

At Central Station, about 52,460 people a day passed through the ticket gates in October, down from almost 96,000 passengers in the same month in 2019. The average daily numbers reflect passengers who tap on and off at ticket gates using Opal cards and mobile devices.

Metro Northwest, the first of a four-stage metro network in Sydney costing $63 billion, avoided disruptions from a protracted dispute between the state government and rail unions last year which dogged the rest of the rail network.

Average daily passenger numbers at Tallawong station – at the northern end of the new line – rose 6 per cent to 2588 in October, from three years earlier, while other Metro Northwest stations fell 10 to 24 per cent.

More than 3400 passengers a day passed through gates at Castle Hill, making it the busiest new station on the line, and taking it from 65th to 48th place in the rankings over the past three years. That puts it in the same league as Campbelltown and Seven Hills train stations.

Maria Pirie, who works at Cosmo Coffee cafe near Castle Hill station, said the area had become busier since the metro line opened more than three years ago. “On the weekends it is a lot busier because people catch the metro here to visit. Some come from Rouse Hill,” said Pirie, a Castle Hill resident for the past 16 years. “Metro is really, really handy – it is fast.”

Tallawong station climbed in the rankings to 59th last year, from 108th in 2019, while Rouse Hill rose to 77th from 121st and Castle Hill to 48th from 65th.

Blends and Brothers barber Virushan Pradheepan agreed the metro line was encouraging more people to travel to Castle Hill. “It is a good thing – travelling around is so much quicker,” he said.

Sydney transport expert Mathew Hounsell said patronage on the $7.3 billion Metro Northwest would be boosted when the main section of the Metro City and Southwest line from Chatswood to North Sydney, the CBD and beyond opened next year.

“We always knew the line to Chatswood wouldn’t be enough. Once you get to North Sydney and the CBD that is when [the metro network] really becomes the game changer,” he said.

However, Hounsell said greater urban density to fully realise the benefits of the Metro Northwest rail corridor had yet to follow suit, due in part to council resistance and land banking.

Developer lobby group Urban Taskforce said some developments had emerged in areas near the metro stations, but more apartment buildings were needed in parts of the north-west dominated by detached homes.

“These metro lines are very expensive ... and shouldn’t just be a benefit for those lucky enough who live around them. You have to leverage that benefit by increasing housing, employment, height and density,” Urban Taskforce chief executive Tom Forrest said.

Forrest, who was a senior RailCorp executive from 2008 until 2011, said the Metro Northwest had been remarkably successful from an operational perspective since it began services more than three years ago.

Transport Minister David Elliott, who is the MP for Baulkham Hills in Sydney’s north-west, said greater density along the rail corridor was “always going to be a consequence” of the metro line.

“As much as I want to make sure it’s limited so the character of the suburbs in north-western Sydney is not jeopardised, we do have to accept there will be some density around these stations,” he said.

Elliott said it had never been a condition that high-density housing was the price locals paid for a new rail line, but it was one way to help address a “broader housing crisis” in Sydney.

Sydney University urban planning professor Nicole Gurran said the government needed strategies to ensure affordable homes were built along rail corridors.

Otherwise, she said the benefits of better accessibility through improved transport pushed up house prices and rents, forcing people on lower incomes further out to the city’s fringe. “Density doesn’t translate to affordability, nor does making lower value areas more accessible. Overseas, when transformative projects like a new metro line are planned, you embed a housing affordability strategy from day one,” she said.

Although patronage is still at about three-quarters of pre-pandemic levels, Sydney Metro chief executive Peter Regan said the Northwest line had “very strong” growth at weekends, when people were using it to travel between centres.

“Once the city section [of the metro network] opens, we’ll see a lot more of that because there’s the speed, the frequency, the reliability,” he said.

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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Well derr, of course it's going to be popular. It's new and actually works. It's also much better for social distancing than the double deck rolling stock.
The article title gives the impression it has grown since pre pandemic levels when that's not the case. It has just been less affected.
tonyp wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:10 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/wee ... 5c2l8.html
Overseas, when transformative projects like a new metro line are planned, you embed a housing affordability strategy from day one,” she said.
Well that's because Sydney's never proactive, it insists on planning on the fly which is why it continues to be a more grotesque collection of villages as the years pass.
tonyp wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:10 pm
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/wee ... 5c2l8.html


Although patronage is still at about three-quarters of pre-pandemic levels, Sydney Metro chief executive Peter Regan said the Northwest line had “very strong” growth at weekends, when people were using it to travel between centres.


 
That's hardly surprising with the weekend traffic gridlock and now being a 21st century piece of commuter rail infrastructure that gets you from Epping to Castle hill at light speed. Try doing the same trip by the 19th century road network.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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1whoknows
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Location: Melbourne

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by 1whoknows »

Another reason heavy rail has not recovered will the protracted industrial disputation during 2022.
"Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out"
David Horowitz.
stupid_girl
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by stupid_girl »

I'm a bit surprised that Rouse Hill, being a town centre, only ranks in the middle among the metro stations.
Geo101
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Geo101 »

I know the formatting is not too good (BBCode newby), but here are the Monthly entry and exit taps for December 2022

Code: Select all

Station		Suburb			Entry	Exit
--------------------------------------------------------

Code: Select all

Tallawong	Rouse Hill		85670	79740

Code: Select all

Rouse Hill	Rouse Hill		68230	70160

Code: Select all

Kellyville	Kellyville		69030	65320

Code: Select all

Bella Vista	Bella Vista		48300	45570

Code: Select all

Norwest		Norwest			44690	43150

Code: Select all

Hills Showgnd	Castle Hill		56360	52280

Code: Select all

Castle Hill	Castle Hill		127030	129430

Code: Select all

Cherrybrook	Cherrybrook		68130	63420

Code: Select all

Epping		Epping		T9/CCN	240180	229850

Code: Select all

Macquarie Uni	Macquarie Park		198380	201120

Code: Select all

Macquarie Park	Macquarie Park		58340	58490

Code: Select all

North Ryde	North Ryde		51940	52330

Code: Select all

Chatswood	Chatswood	T19/CCN	555140	566950
--------------------------------------------------------

Code: Select all

Leppington	Leppington		53530	49810

Code: Select all

Edmondson Park	Edmondson Park		60520	56820
Source: https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/

I added in Leppington and Edmondson Park as a comparison, not sure if it's relevant or not.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

stupid_girl wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:10 pm I'm a bit surprised that Rouse Hill, being a town centre, only ranks in the middle among the metro stations.
It's a town centre for its local catchment whereas Castle Hill is more a regional town centre. I did think that Rouse Hill might do better with all the local bus networks focussing on it, but Tallawong is picking up patronage from a vastly bigger region with its P+R. (In case anybody hasn't noticed, people are also parking up nearby roads once the car parks are full). I suspect Rouse Hill will pick up when Box Hill development becomes critical mass. There's even a zoned strip for a busway between Box Hill and Rouse Hill, though the local streets suffice for now. My instinct is still that a mistake was made in not giving sufficient recognition to the development of Box Hill and the metro should have extended further out there, then turned towards Marsden Park/ St Marys via Riverstone.
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