Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Merc1107 wrote: Get off your high horse, this isn't a doctoral thesis, it's a discussion board.
Fact remains that Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable. Many an argument on this forum has been dismantled when it was revealed it was based on a flawed Wikipedia article.
User avatar
Lt. Commander Data
Posts: 2325
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:09 am
Favourite Vehicle: Scania L94UB
Location: Adelaide Hills

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Lt. Commander Data »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:38 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Get off your high horse, this isn't a doctoral thesis, it's a discussion board.
Fact remains that Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable. Many an argument on this forum has been dismantled when it was revealed it was based on a flawed Wikipedia article.
Perhaps in the early 2010s - these days wikipedia’s reliability had increased dramatically. https://amp.smh.com.au/national/evidenc ... 5bhl3.html

Although I don’t see how any of this pointless “he said, she said” discussion is “on topic”, as some participants seem to be so obsessed with :roll:
First person on 822, 865 (2016 re-route).
Last person on 164, 867, 868
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Can't wait for the Maroubra metro. The east and south is screaming for it. Moore Park needs to be included.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Lt. Commander Data wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:28 pm Although I don’t see how any of this pointless “he said, she said” discussion is “on topic”, as some participants seem to be so obsessed with :roll:
It's important to get basic facts beyond dispute in order to be able to build discussion on that sound base. There's a die-hard coterie of rail fans in NSW who don't accept the metro and will look for any argument against it, twisting facts in the process. More a case of he said vs facts than he said vs she said. It must be off-putting to people in other states, it's a Sydney thing and a needless argument at that. Both systems will be running alongside, interchange with and complement each other for decades ahead.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:04 pm
Lt. Commander Data wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:28 pm Although I don’t see how any of this pointless “he said, she said” discussion is “on topic”, as some participants seem to be so obsessed with :roll:
It's important to get basic facts beyond dispute in order to be able to build discussion on that sound base. There's a die-hard coterie of rail fans in NSW who don't accept the metro and will look for any argument against it, twisting facts in the process. More a case of he said vs facts than he said vs she said. It must be off-putting to people in other states, it's a Sydney thing and a needless argument at that. Both systems will be running alongside, interchange with and complement each other for decades ahead.
My final word. I'm not anti-metro, just disputing your claims about the extent of it's supposed superior capacity, without acknowledging the alternative scenario of upgrading the existing network with digital signalling and ATO at a fraction of the cost. I take exception to your claim that I'm a White Knight for the DD network, when in fact I try to take an objective approach to the relative merits of both systems. I'll leave it up to others based on factual information to pass judgement.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Let's face facts, there wouldn't be many or any females to debate this with.
Why is there an aversion to third rail power around here?
We still insist on catenary power with metro.
Rather like our almost religious aversion to nuclear power of any sort, like we don't have ample arid land to deal with the waste. Whoopsie, breaking the religious dogma against bringing up other subjects!!
.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Glen
Posts: 3365
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Glen »

Aurora wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:15 am One question not addressed on here is how is 24 tph is timetabled, do we go into half minutes, because that is the only way it can work, and even then, at least for the past two decades, departure starts 20-30 seconds prior to departure time, all things being equal. That is not wheels moving, but getting everything closed safely when there should be no more boarding.
I'd suggest operationally by half minutes, but for the public view probably intervals like 3 minutes, 3 minutes, 2 minutes, 3 minutes and so on.

Taking an extraordinary length of time to close the doors on a train (or even to open them) is a peculiar Sydney way of doing things that no new Minister or CEO has been able to change.

This practice crept in post-Waterall, as if it had something to do with the cause of that tragedy, and has since become entrenched as a way of achieving on time running, which is much easier when trains are allowed to depart early!
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:08 am My final word. I'm not anti-metro, just disputing your claims about the extent of it's supposed superior capacity, without acknowledging the alternative scenario of upgrading the existing network with digital signalling and ATO at a fraction of the cost. I take exception to your claim that I'm a White Knight for the DD network, when in fact I try to take an objective approach to the relative merits of both systems. I'll leave it up to others based on factual information to pass judgement.
Well there's no need to dispute them any longer, the facts are there. And I'm actually not disputing your statements that the suburban network can be upgraded and its performance improved - I've said that a number of times. The thing is that Rome wasn't built in a day. The metro network needs to be built up to a basic critical mass to take the stress off the suburban network and provide for future growth. Then, whatever state government is in power at the time can start upgrading the suburban system so that it performs better, in conjunction with expanding the metro network further. We have good professionals there who know what's needed and will advise the politicians accordingly. Even better, it's all being run under one roof nowadays with a holistic perspective, not the competing silos that were holding progress back in the past.
flitter
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:38 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by flitter »

Swift wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:14 am Let's face facts, there wouldn't be many or any females to debate this with.
Whoopsie, breaking the religious dogma against bringing up other subjects!!
.
If you'd like to bring up other subjects, start a new thread so we don't all get alerts about it and have to wade through re-litigating old discussions. Sorry - this is OT as well but you seem to be continuously seeking to divert the discussion from Metro progress. (I'm saying no more on this).
Randomness
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:17 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything with an Zf Ecomat
Location: Around the 920

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Randomness »

Swift wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:14 am Why is there an aversion to third rail power around here?
Why shouldn't there be? The original electrification of the Sydney Network was at 1500v. For compatability, they'd have continued this, even on new lines such as the ECRL. For ease of conversion, the metro would've also been built at 1500v.

There also aren't many benefits to third rail execpt fitting under bridges (which is why they are most commonly used or suggested).

Tradeoffs include:
- Resistive losses
> More substations needed as a result
- Lower power due to heat (systems being usually 750v vs our 1500v)
> Less motive power as a result
- Trackside safety (Electrocution)
- Speed restrictions (due to friction and heat)
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

That was a good answer. Now I am more educated.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Randomness
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:17 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything with an Zf Ecomat
Location: Around the 920

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Randomness »

https://www.9news.com.au/national/sydne ... lKE7W7fMZ4

Surprised about the lack of capacitors or batteries to keep the lights and air-con on. Potentially TfNSW cheaping out on stock again?
User avatar
boxythingy
Posts: 3891
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything not 'B-set' w/problms

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boxythingy »

It seems like these rail vehicles causing passengers to be stuck is still plaguing the system from 3 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJiGk6z ... PTCommuter

You would think that a fully-automated system would have been able to promptly evacuate people off a non-functioning train, obviously not.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by jpp42 »

Apparently one of the biggest complaints was the incessant loud recording playing every minute, advising there was a problem and it was being looked into. Hopefully that can be revised - there's no need to play something like that more than 2-3 times, people will get the point and then all you're doing is annoying your customers. What they want is actual, live information from a human operator. So much can be improved simply by communicating transparently - it's frustrating how transit agencies have to learn and re-learn this over and over again...
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

The following is an interesting perspective on the construction of the City & Southwest Metro, with particular reference to the Bankstown Line conversion. The video lasts 20 minutes and it's worth watching it through to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18ykG6N8dyg
User avatar
boxythingy
Posts: 3891
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything not 'B-set' w/problms

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boxythingy »

Up and coming youtuber (assuming wishing to further increase view and subscriber counts) alleges that he has sources from a credible insider that the heavy rail to metro conversion between presumably Bankstown to Sydenham will be cancelled.

Wouldn't that just result in Sydenham becoming an overcrowded station for failed interchanges between the T3 Bankstown and city/NW metro services should there be service disruptions?

Within the past two weeks there have been activities at Macquarie Fields which resulted in power being cut between Campbelltown to Glenfield, can you imagine them scrambling to buses being organised to shuttle people from Sydenham into the city when there are no standby fleets for when this happens in the South West?

There are slow, indirect and infrequent bus services linking Glenfield and Campbelltown, but there are no alternatives between Sydenham to the city.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

One problem of this will be that there are now no dedicated platforms where T3 trains from Bankstown can terminate. What is the usage of the local lines, esp the up line, during busier periods?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Fleet Lists »

boxythingy wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 pm Up and coming youtuber (assuming wishing to further increase view and subscriber counts) alleges that he has sources from a credible insider that the heavy rail to metro conversion between presumably Bankstown to Sydenham will be cancelled.
That red presumption is in itself something which makes this highly doubtful.

Let us wait and see what happens in the election - that could change things.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

boxythingy wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 pm Within the past two weeks there have been activities at Macquarie Fields which resulted in power being cut between Campbelltown to Glenfield, can you imagine them scrambling to buses being organised to shuttle people from Sydenham into the city when there are no standby fleets for when this happens in the South West?

There are slow, indirect and infrequent bus services linking Glenfield and Campbelltown, but there are no alternatives between Sydenham to the city.
The timetabliing and hour frequencies of most region 2 routes is a issue that could be it’s own thing
Stu
Posts: 4345
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Stu »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:13 pm
boxythingy wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 pm Up and coming youtuber (assuming wishing to further increase view and subscriber counts) alleges that he has sources from a credible insider that the heavy rail to metro conversion between presumably Bankstown to Sydenham will be cancelled.
That red presumption is in itself something which makes this highly doubtful.

Let us wait and see what happens in the election - that could change things.
I watched the video on YouTube. The insider is apparently male and suggests that the metro will be cancelled if Labor win the election at this years state election.
“My insider has a very bad gut feeling”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=18ykG6N8dyg
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Stu wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:50 pm
“My insider has a very bad gut feeling”
Sounds like he needs to see his GP asap.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

boxythingy wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:48 pm Up and coming youtuber (assuming wishing to further increase view and subscriber counts) alleges that he has sources from a credible insider that the heavy rail to metro conversion between presumably Bankstown to Sydenham will be cancelled.
In fairness to Sharath, he did qualify the suggestion that the Sydenham to Bankstown metro conversion could be cancelled, by noting that it was speculation on the part of his insider, but where there's smoke there's fire. There were a couple of comments on his youtube video from other alleged insiders working on the project who offered differing opinions, with one suggesting that there was no chance that it would be cancelled and the other saying that the word going around was that it would be cancelled. The speculation also noted that the possible cancellation could happen regardless of which party wins the forthcoming election. Neither major party is going to foreshadow this prior to the election. Who do you believe?

One thing that can't easily be dismissed though, is that there are obviously problems in converting a legacy surface rail line to driverless metro (GoA4), as distinct from a lesser grade of automation such as GoA2, which is proposed for the broader Sydney Trains' network and is far less disruptive during conversion. Remember, the original plan for conversion of the Bankstown Line to driverless metro was to straighten and level all the platforms, but this was found to be impractical because of the constricted rail corridor. Hence why expensive mechanical gap fillers have been proposed, which isn't ideal on a new metro line. Apparently, the stations are only being upgraded for 6 car trains with the remainder of platforms being left as is, which in itself is a mindboggling decision. How many more compromises have to be made and at what cost, which brings into question whether it was worth it in the first place, when there are other alternatives in upgrading the existing line at far less cost to provide an enhanced service?

As mentioned in the video, conversion of the Epping to Chatswood Line to metro was relatively seamless, as it was a new underground line with straight platforms and only required minor modifications. Dare I say it, conversion of the even later SWRL to metro if it stacks up, would be similarly seamless, but that doesn't take into account how such a conversion would impact on the broader rail network and any future extensions to link the CBD with the South West Growth Region.

A lot has been made of the benefit of conversion of the Bankstown Line to metro by removing it from the City Circle. This is a complete furphy IMO, as there are other alternatives. Why would you link one of the least patronised lines to a high capacity metro line? The overriding consideration seems to be the prospect of increased densification along the Bankstown Line, but that's by no means a certainty, with local opposition to that happening. If the Bankstown Line conversion is cancelled, then it doesn't preclude a future Sydney Trains' more direct extension from Bankstown to Liverpool. With the proposed upgrades to the Sydney Trains' network, the Bankstown Line could also be upgraded with a faster all stations service at a higher frequency equivalent to the metro.

In terms of what the options would be if the Bankstown Line conversion is cancelled, then that really warrants a whole new thread. We will just have to wait and see how this pans out after the election.
Last edited by Transtopic on Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Myrtone
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:29 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Myrtone »

How about GoA3 operation, which would allow having an attendant instead of a driver and a guard?
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

Stu wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:50 pm I watched the video on YouTube. The insider is apparently male and suggests that the metro will be cancelled if Labor win the election at this years state election.
“My insider has a very bad gut feeling”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=18ykG6N8dyg
Sorry, you've got that wrong. What he said was that there was a likelihood that it would be cancelled, regardless of who wins the election.
Merc1107
Posts: 2243
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Favourite Vehicle: MAN 18.310, MB O405NH, L94
Location: A Coastal City

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Merc1107 »

For those not versed on the intricacies of this project, especially how committed the government (any government) is - have they begun construction of this particular Metro, or are contracts signed and things about to happen? What sort of cost would the government incur by pulling out of something as big as this?
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”