Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

[tonyp]

When Sydney Metro between Chatswood & Sydenham opens later this year, an interesting travel time comparison I noticed...

Central to Sydenham
Sydney Metro - 7 mins - 1 stop (Waterloo)
T4 - 7 mins - 1 stop (Redfern)
T3 - 10-12 mins - 3 stops (Redfern, Erskinevillle, St Peters)

Essentially, for commuters travelling between Central & Sydenham, no improvement to travel times... (in terms of quickest journey time)

Of course, with the current T3 vs T4 situation, this doesnt account for which train turns up first, or walking distance to platforms

Food for thought...

The route via Waterloo is a little longer, which cancels out the advantage of the metro's higher average speed and shorter dwell.

[Fleet Lists]

And once the Metro extends to Bankstown the T4 will slow down as it will stop at Erskinevulle and St Peters in place of the T3.

[Bus 400]

Whilst short-lived, at least those at Sydenham will be guaranteed a seat in peak hour. Which will definitely be a first.

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[boxythingy]

The route via Waterloo is a little longer, which cancels out the advantage of the metro's higher average speed and shorter dwell.

Hence the arguments for a USYD/Zetland alignment.

And once the Metro extends to Bankstown the T4 will slow down as it will stop at Erskinevulle and St Peters in place of the T3.

They really need to address the issue of 1/2 hour frequencies at Arncliffe, Banksia, Carlton and Allawah. These are inner city suburbs. Where are the buses that can offer an alternate viable mode?

[Swift]

They really need to address the issue of 1/2 hour frequencies at Arncliffe, Banksia, Carlton and Allawah. These are inner city suburbs. Where are the buses that can offer an alternate viable mode?

In London 25 years ago I got so used to 1 to 2 minutes that I got dismayed when the board read 5 minutes to go before the next train then had to remind myself Sydney.
We will be lucky to wait twice as long or even three times. 30 minutes in the city ring is ludicrocity.
B b but Sydney is s s still the b b best place on earth. Pig's bum!

[tonyp]

Hence the arguments for a USYD/Zetland alignment.
...........
They really need to address the issue of 1/2 hour frequencies at Arncliffe, Banksia, Carlton and Allawah. These are inner city suburbs. Where are the buses that can offer an alternate viable mode?

Sydney University has Redfern less than 1 km away. They could hardly want for a better station than that within walking distance.

Those intermediate stations like Arncliffe etc really suffer from Sydney's two-tier suburban system. There's a lot of discussion about how we can speed up/ improve the frequency of major routes that often semi-express. No discussion about the forgotten, bypassed intermediate stations where passengers either have a crawling journey, or have to change along the route to get somewhere faster - and whatever gain there is usually lost in the transfer time.

This is where the metro has it in spades over the suburban system - not only faster than the semi-expresses, but the convenience of all stops too. It also assists activation of these secondary precincts, rather than leaving them in a backwater with poorer transport options. This in turn encourages better spread of housing, commercial and employment opportunities.

[tonyp]

In London 25 years ago I got so used to 1 to 2 minutes that I got dismayed when the board read 5 minutes to go before the next train then had to remind myself Sydney.
We will be lucky to wait twice as long or even three times. 30 minutes in the city ring is ludicrocity.
B b but Sydney is s s still the b b best place on earth. Pig's bum!

I've waited 15 minutes for tube trains right near the centre of London!

[Swift]

I'm sure that happens, but not on my watch it didn't.

[Scott4570]

Just for reference purposes, in respect to those intermediate Stations mentioned above, currently:-

Arncliffe and Banksia have - in Off-Peak: 2 services an hour, at Peak times: 6 services an hour, at Weekends: 2 services an hour.
Carlton and Allawah have - in Off-Peak: 4 services an hour, at Peak times: 6 services an hour, at Weekends: 2 services an hour.

This could change with the introduction of the Metro to Sydenham and again when the New Intercity Fleet commences on the South Coast, plus with the New Signalling arrangements.

[Linto63]

They really need to address the issue of 1/2 hour frequencies at Arncliffe, Banksia, Carlton and Allawah.

One of the proposals was for a 4tph all stops service (except Wolli Creek) from Hurstville to either the City Circle or Central that would have used the western pair of tracks. This would have allowed the eastern pair of track to have become an express line for services from Wollongong, Waterfall and Cronulla and would have eliminated the Wolli Creek crossing bottleneck.

It now appears that the western pair of tracks will become the express line with South Coast services to use these and terminate at Central in lieu of Bondi Junction, presumably with some Cronulla and Waterfall services cutting in at Wolli Creek. I gather that platforms 3 and 4 (the eastern pair) at Hurstville will primarily be used by terminating services with through services to use platforms 1 and 2, currently it is a bit of a mixture.

Sydney University has Redfern less than 1 km away. They could hardly want for a better station than that within walking distance.

Seriously? If I went for a job that was advertised as being close to a railway station, but required eight kilometres of walking a week, I would dispute that fact. Obviously Sydney Uni is a large campus, many opting for the train to Central, bus up Broadway option.

[Aurora]

I’m sure most of the students can walk for ten minutes each way, not the significant impost some make believe it is and I’ve done the walk many times.

Try walking 30+ mins per way, then maybe we can talk.

[tonyp]

Seriously? If I went for a job that was advertised as being close to a railway station, but required eight kilometres of walking a week, I would dispute that fact. Obviously Sydney Uni is a large campus, many opting for the train to Central, bus up Broadway option.

The walk-up catchment of a railway station is commonly accepted as being about 1 km, or about 15-20 minutes walk. Most of SU campus is within that distance from Redfern, a good chunk of it being within about 700 metres, similar to Macquarie. Whoever is beyond that can go to Parramatta Rd and catch a bus if they wish. At UNSW, before public transport services were provided to the upper campus, we had walks up to 900 metres. I've done all these walks at all those campuses, they're no big deal. SU has actually created pathways towards Redfern. When you're young, it's an important activity to do between sitting a desk at college and sitting at a desk at home. A university and college clientele is different from a business, shopping or entertainment one.

The other thing is that Redfern serves many lines. A metro diverted through SU would be only one line.

[Transtopic]

Just for reference purposes, in respect to those intermediate Stations mentioned above, currently:-

Arncliffe and Banksia have - in Off-Peak: 2 services an hour, at Peak times: 6 services an hour, at Weekends: 2 services an hour.
Carlton and Allawah have - in Off-Peak: 4 services an hour, at Peak times: 6 services an hour, at Weekends: 2 services an hour.

This could change with the introduction of the Metro to Sydenham and again when the New Intercity Fleet commences on the South Coast, plus with the New Signalling arrangements.

It's a little unclear at the moment whether any uplift in service frequencies will happen immediately with the 2024 timetable or when all T8 services are transferred to the Airport Line, St Peters and Erskineville to T4 to Bondi Junction and SCO Intercity to Sydney Terminal. My guess is that it will be when the transfers are completed.

Ultimately in the peak, with the current signalling, the Airport Line will increase from 10 to 18 tph; T2 from 14 to 18 tph; T4 from 15 to 20 tph and SCO from 3 to 4 tph. I can't see why they couldn't introduce consistent stopping patterns, instead of skip/stop patterns, when the time saving is hardly worth it except for longer distance semi-express services. There may have been some justification to spread the load up until now, but with the increase in frequencies and ultimately faster journey times with the digital upgrades, that should no longer be an issue, just like the metro.

In the case of T4, there will be an increase from 6 to 8 tph from Hurstville to Bondi Junction; 6 to 8 tph from Cronulla to Bondi Junction and 3 to 4 tph from Waterfall to Bondi Junction. Off-peak service frequencies haven't yet been released. My suggested pattern in the peak is for an all stations service from Hurstville to Bondi Junction and for an express service ex Cronulla and Waterfall between Hurstville and Wolli Creek then merging with the Hurstville services to Bondi Junction in an all stations pattern at 20 tph, which would include St Peters and Erskineville. It's simple - just two consistent patterns combining into one. SCO Intercity would run in tandem with the Cronulla/Waterfall express services between Hurstville and Wolli Creek Junction in a single pattern, before continuing direct to Sydney Terminal. The only fly in the ointment is if the Minns government insists on reinstating Kogarah and/or Rockdale on the T4 semi-express services, which I think would be a mistake, unless SCO services also stopped there to maintain a consistent pattern.

In the off-peak, I suggest 6 tph all stations from Hurstville to Bondi Junction; 6 tph semi-express Cronulla to Bondi Junction and maintaining an all day 4 tph semi-express Waterfall to Bondi Junction service. That would bring the off-peak all stations service for T4 between Wolli Creek and Bondi Junction to 16 tph, which would be more than competitive with an alternative metro service, not that it's ever likely to happen. The digital signalling and ATO upgrades will increase the frequencies in the peak even further to 24 tph and with reduced journey times.

[stupid_girl]

This latest update confirms that T8 services via Sydenham will continue to service St Peters and Erskineville in a staged process before they are permanently transferred to the T4 and Illawarra Line, although in the absence of T3, it will temporarily become an all day service to both stations when it previously alternated between them in the peak. That also confirms the ultimate operating pattern proposed after the Bankstown Line conversion with all T8 services operating via the Airport Line and St Peters and Erskineville transferred to T4 in an all stations pattern on the Illawarra Main from Wolli Creek to Bondi Junction. SCO Intercity services will ultimately be transferred to the Illawarra Local (Western track pair) from Hurstville to Sydney Terminal via the new Erskineville crossovers and Illawarra Dive instead of to Bondi Junction, which will free up more paths for T4 (15 to 2O tph). This is with the current signalling regime and will be further increased to 24 tph with the digital signalling upgrade.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... e-services

I think the trackwork timetable this week is a good indication on what to expect.
Liverpool starters are re-routed via Regents Park.
St Peters and Erskineville are served by Campbelltown starters in peak and Sydenham starters in off-peak.

[Transtopic]

This latest update confirms that T8 services via Sydenham will continue to service St Peters and Erskineville in a staged process before they are permanently transferred to the T4 and Illawarra Line, although in the absence of T3, it will temporarily become an all day service to both stations when it previously alternated between them in the peak. That also confirms the ultimate operating pattern proposed after the Bankstown Line conversion with all T8 services operating via the Airport Line and St Peters and Erskineville transferred to T4 in an all stations pattern on the Illawarra Main from Wolli Creek to Bondi Junction. SCO Intercity services will ultimately be transferred to the Illawarra Local (Western track pair) from Hurstville to Sydney Terminal via the new Erskineville crossovers and Illawarra Dive instead of to Bondi Junction, which will free up more paths for T4 (15 to 2O tph). This is with the current signalling regime and will be further increased to 24 tph with the digital signalling upgrade.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... e-services

I think the trackwork timetable this week is a good indication on what to expect.
Liverpool starters are re-routed via Regents Park.
St Peters and Erskineville are served by Campbelltown starters in peak and Sydenham starters in off-peak.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that there will be Sydenham starters in the off-peak. My interpretation is that some T8 Macarthur/Campbelltown services will also service St Peters and Erskineville via Sydenham on the Local in the off-peak in the interim until they all run via the Airport Line and St Peters and Erskineville are permanently transferred to the T4 line to Bondi Junction on the Main.

[stupid_girl]

I think the trackwork timetable this week is a good indication on what to expect.
Liverpool starters are re-routed via Regents Park.
St Peters and Erskineville are served by Campbelltown starters in peak and Sydenham starters in off-peak.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that there will be Sydenham starters in the off-peak. My interpretation is that some T8 Macarthur/Campbelltown services will also service St Peters and Erskineville via Sydenham on the Local in the off-peak in the interim until they all run via the Airport Line and St Peters and Erskineville are permanently transferred to the T4 line to Bondi Junction on the Main.

There are only 4tph Macarthur starters in the off-peak. I don't see any possibility bypassing the Airport.

If the trackwork timetable this week doesn't mess up, it's reasonable to stick to it in the upcoming timetable rewrite.

[matthewg]

No, the trains I catch every day (all stations from Hurstville) will have two more stops added and given the density of Esrkinville in particular, once this starts I will be lucky to be able to get onto a train at Redfern in the evenings. I suspect I will have to start walking to Erskinville instead and get on when all the Erko passengers get off.
So I have a slower more crowded service to look forward to when the 'metro' takes over the Bankstown line.
All the Opal changes significantly disadvantaged me - causing far greater than CPI effective fare increase each time. Now this. TfNSW must be out to get me in some fashion.
I guess they really really want me to switch to driving to work.

[Glen]

This weekend 20-21 January the Metro is running at a reduced frequency of every 25 minutes, during daylight hours only, due to trackwork and testing for the extension.

[Transtopic]

No, the trains I catch every day (all stations from Hurstville) will have two more stops added and given the density of Esrkinville in particular, once this starts I will be lucky to be able to get onto a train at Redfern in the evenings. I suspect I will have to start walking to Erskinville instead and get on when all the Erko passengers get off.
So I have a slower more crowded service to look forward to when the 'metro' takes over the Bankstown line.
All the Opal changes significantly disadvantaged me - causing far greater than CPI effective fare increase each time. Now this. TfNSW must be out to get me in some fashion.
I guess they really really want me to switch to driving to work.

Just to allay your fears Matthew, the current timetable in the morning peak has 6 tph servicing Erskineville and 7 tph for St Peters, which are a combination of T3 and T8 services alternating between them. When those stations are ultimately transferred to T4, there could potentially be up to 20 tph with the current signalling in an all stations pattern and 24 tph with the digital upgrades and similar in the evening peak. I don't think you have to worry.

It does highlight the complicated timetables which are presently a dog's breakfast and there is no reason why they couldn't be simplified to more consistent stopping patterns after the closedown of the Bankstown Line for conversion, even with the current signalling.

[alleve]

No, the trains I catch every day (all stations from Hurstville) will have two more stops added and given the density of Esrkinville in particular, once this starts I will be lucky to be able to get onto a train at Redfern in the evenings. I suspect I will have to start walking to Erskinville instead and get on when all the Erko passengers get off.
So I have a slower more crowded service to look forward to when the 'metro' takes over the Bankstown line.
All the Opal changes significantly disadvantaged me - causing far greater than CPI effective fare increase each time. Now this. TfNSW must be out to get me in some fashion.
I guess they really really want me to switch to driving to work.

The trains you catch will have more demand and more stops sure, but will also come more often. Hurstville all stops will come more often than every ten minutes when the signalling upgrades are over. So you won't be worse off

[Swift]

More trains is always good, unless they are four cars instead of eight, as often occurs on CCN services.
Signalling upgrades are always helpful as long as they don't keep retiring trains prematurely *cough achoo C sets*.

[matthewg]

The trains you catch will have more demand and more stops sure, but will also come more often. Hurstville all stops will come more often than every ten minutes when the signalling upgrades are over. So you won't be worse off

The ESR can already run trains at sub 2.5-minute intervals, I regularly see it at Redfen when there is a disruption. They don't table that frequency as there is no scope for error. One train at Town Hall with 'boarding difficulties' and the system clogs up for the rest of the peak hour.

Town Hall needs platform doors, although that requires trains to have a common door pattern and stop accurately. We have neither.

[Swift]

Someone needs to invent flexible platform doors that can open in multiple spots for legacy systems. Can't be that difficult.

[boronia]

I’ve seen images of gates that can be adjusted for minor differences in door spacings.
But might be problematic when dealing with differences in intercity and regional carriages.

[tonyp]

The ESR can already run trains at sub 2.5-minute intervals, I regularly see it at Redfen when there is a disruption. They don't table that frequency as there is no scope for error. One train at Town Hall with 'boarding difficulties' and the system clogs up for the rest of the peak hour.

Town Hall needs platform doors, although that requires trains to have a common door pattern and stop accurately. We have neither.

PSDs aren't going to solve the double decks' dwell time and internal passenger distribution issues. I mean what would you do? Shut the doors after 30 seconds and let the crowds who couldn't make it on board increasingly block up the platforms and up the stairs? And trains leave loaded with less than capacity. Then the complaints start pouring in.

PSDs are effective with single deck metro-type operations where the dwells are already quick with three or four doors per car and all you want to do is make the dwells more precise and safe.