Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:40 pm
Transtopic wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:08 am I'm still waiting to hear about other legacy rail networks or lines being successfully converted to driverless metro operation.
Quickly off the top of my head, there's Paris RER A which was converted to GoA2 in 1989 and there's some further technology upgrade supposed to be coming this decade. Indeed, the Sydney suburban journey times are not far behind those of RER A, which suggests that automation/resignalling won't achieve a lot on that front, only frequency. Sydney metro journey times are way quicker than those of both our suburbans and RER A.
The Paris RER A with GoA2, which is what is being rolled out in Sydney, is not driverless. That's GoA4, which is the level of automation for Sydney Metro. The contracts awarded by the State government to Siemens for the GoA2 upgrade to the existing network clearly states that frequencies will be increased to 24tph on the busiest lines, with provision to operate at 30tph to recover from disruptive incidents. It also states that journey times will be reduced because of the closer headways which can be safely operated with the digital signalling and ATO upgrade. How can you say that the journey times for Sydney Metro will be way quicker than an upgraded Sydney Trains network? You have no evidence for that. I suspect that the journey time difference between the upgraded existing network and metro will be minimal. Remember that the new metro line through the CBD will take pressure off the existing CBD stations, reducing congestion and dwell times, as it would if the new cross harbour link had been an extension of the existing network.

Care to nominate any other legacy rail systems that are being converted to driverless metro (GoA4)?
moa999
Posts: 2923
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by moa999 »


Transtopic wrote: at a similar frequency of 15tph for both modes in an all stations stopping pattern, a DD service would provide 13,500 seats per hour and peak line capacity of 21,000pph. A SD metro would provide 7,560 seats per hour and peak line capacity of 16,800pph. That exposes the lie that SD metro has greater carrying capacity, as well as seating capacity, at a level of frequency appropriate for the demand.
And in more pointless comparisons, do you realise that when run at the same frequency that a double decker bus has more capacity than a single decker bus.

Ignoring any signalling upgrades the Metro can run at high frequencies due to lower dwell times with three doors and no interior stairs and choke points.

And this Metro line won't share the city circle with two other railway lines which introduces further frequency impediments.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Why does no one else in the world use DD as their main underground train system? Sydney knows best? Hahahahaha that's a good one!
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:14 am
And in more pointless comparisons, do you realise that when run at the same frequency that a double decker bus has more capacity than a single decker bus.

Ignoring any signalling upgrades the Metro can run at high frequencies due to lower dwell times with three doors and no interior stairs and choke points.

And this Metro line won't share the city circle with two other railway lines which introduces further frequency impediments.
Yes, this - functionality.

The double deck trains can fit probably 2,000 people. I'm sure I've ridden at least one like this during the Olympic Games. You jam them in like sardines at one end, don't stop anywhere along the way and slowly disgorge them at the other end of the trip. I would think that Transport has chosen that capacity figure of 1,200 as being the level at which double decks can function with a tolerable level of passenger exchange during the trip, without extending dwell times. The 1,200 figure, iirc, represents about 2.5 ppsm. We've all been in double deck trains and seen how poor is their internal functionality with crowds.

It's ridiculous to rate a metro train at 3 ppsm. They're fully capable of rapid passenger exchange with big loads at 4 ppsm and would even cope at 6 ppsm. The CSELR trams in Sydney, with their ideal standard of one double leaf door every 5 linear metres, are rated at 6 ppsm. Metro trains around the world are typically outfitted with four doors per car to meet a standard of at least 6 ppsm, so with three doors in ours, 4 ppsm is certainly easy meat.

On that side-note bus reference, I wouldn't necessarily go as far to say that a double deck bus has more capacity than a single deck bus. It has more seating capacity, but, like a double deck train, its internal functionality is up the creek. A vastly more functional articulated bus has the same capacity, as does, nearly, a 12 metre single deck in Europe (rated at up to 100 passengers), but with three or four doors to maximise its functionality. Our 12 metre single deckers in NSW are throttled by door issues and union and axle-load constraints. The analogies with the double deck vs single deck train are alike though.

Swift raises a valid point. Double deck trains are simply not used anywhere on rapid transit type commuter services. The double deckers you see in Europe and North America are typically used on services to the outer commuting belt and beyond - far more analogous to our interurban services. Sydney is the only city in the world stupid enough to try such a thing and it was done because the Labor government that was in power 1941-1965 wouldn't invest in suburban infrastructure that would enable the trains to perform better and instead chose double deckers as a cheap solution to providing more capacity without having to increase the service level. It got us by for 30 or so years because patronage remained stagnant for all that time. As soon as major growth set in after 2000, it became a crisis. It was actually the previous state Labor government that started thinking about metro as the solution to this and I give them credit for that, even though they fumbled the beginnings.
Last edited by tonyp on Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Fleet Lists »

The double deckers were not introduced until the sixties - nothing to do with the 1941 - 1945 period.
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:37 am The double deckers were not introduced until the sixties - nothing to do with the 1941 - 1945 period.
Read me again - I wrote 1941-1965. Don't worry, I misread things as my eyes dim!
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

For all this talk that the reason Sydney went down the double deck path was solely down to NSW having a Labor government, it was only the 120 Tulloch trailers that were ordered by that administration. The contract to develop the prototype double decker power cars was awarded by the Askin government in 1966, as was the one for the first production examples in 1970, with further orders placed before the government changed in 1976.

Sydney, like most other cities, suffered as revenues collapsed in the post World War II era and governments naturally sought cost efficiencies to balance the books. While investment was an easy target, it didn't entirely dry up, quadruplication of the Western line from Lidcombe to Granville and Westmead to Seven Hills was conducted in the 1950s, as was electrification of the line west of Blacktown.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

Most of that postwar investment in rail infrastructure was down to moving coal, not passenger transport, the significant exception being completing the city circle. For all the good things he achieved, I think Milton Morris didn't question hard enough the issues of trams and double deck trains vis a vis infrastructure and capacity. He accepted the Transport Dept's zeitgeist of the times, but at least tackled the biggest passenger infrastructure issue, the ESR.

Interestingly, the wisdom of the time was that the single deck standard suburban sets could carry 1,500 passengers and that the double deck sets could carry 2,000. In retrospect, that didn't work out. The single deckers would have been clinging onto functionality by their fingertips with only two doors per car. The double deckers certainly wouldn't work at all at that level. The problems didn't really become obvious until patronage accelerated upwards after 2000. There were 30 years of getting by OK till then.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

moa999 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:14 am Ignoring any signalling upgrades the Metro can run at high frequencies due to lower dwell times with three doors and no interior stairs and choke points.

And this Metro line won't share the city circle with two other railway lines which introduces further frequency impediments.
And you're ignoring the whole point of my argument, that a more valid comparison is with the digital signalling and ATO upgrade to the existing network, rather than comparisons with operations as they currently exist.

In the context of the Bankstown Line metro, it is proposed to operate at 15tph and not 30tph, which I seriously doubt would ever be warranted for the level of demand in the future. Comparing like with like, upgrading the existing network could also comfortably operate @ 15tph and dwell times wouldn't be an issue. As I have pointed out in my earlier post, an upgraded DD Bankstown Line all stations service would outperform the metro, with close to double the number of seats, which many metro protagonists choose to ignore, and a higher peak load capacity. The argument that the metro can run more services to match the seating capacity of an adequate DD service is false economy, which would require more metro trains than are necessary to cater for the total demand, i.e. with less seats and greater standing capacity. As I mentioned previously, the City Circle will also be upgraded with an additional 10tph.


Anyway, it's probably academic now, but it remains to be seen how Bankstown Line commuters will respond to the new metro service. There's still a way to go on the strategy of converting existing lines.

There were other options for extension of the cross harbour metro and the Bankstown Line as one of the least patronised lines wasn't one of them. It was a case of finding somewhere to go, without any forethought in the planning for extending Metro Northwest to the CBD and beyond.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

Swift wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:06 am Why does no one else in the world use DD as their main underground train system? Sydney knows best? Hahahahaha that's a good one!
The Paris RER does, as does the Berlin S-Bahn, where tunnel profiles permit it. They are commuter railways and not metros, which are separate systems. In most legacy systems with underground networks, the tunnel profiles are not large enough to allow for DD operation.

Sydney was fortunate enough that Bradfield designed a generous loading gauge for the City Underground tunnels, although I doubt if he had envisioned DD trains in the future. It has never had a metro system per se and is a hybrid system based on Bradfield's extensive investigation of overseas rail systems in the world's major cities at the time.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:31 am Swift raises a valid point. Double deck trains are simply not used anywhere on rapid transit type commuter services. The double deckers you see in Europe and North America are typically used on services to the outer commuting belt and beyond - far more analogous to our interurban services. Sydney is the only city in the world stupid enough to try such a thing and it was done because the Labor government that was in power 1941-1965 wouldn't invest in suburban infrastructure that would enable the trains to perform better and instead chose double deckers as a cheap solution to providing more capacity without having to increase the service level. It got us by for 30 or so years because patronage remained stagnant for all that time. As soon as major growth set in after 2000, it became a crisis. It was actually the previous state Labor government that started thinking about metro as the solution to this and I give them credit for that, even though they fumbled the beginnings.
As I mentioned in my previous post, Sydney's suburban rail network is a commuter railway, serving both inner city and outer suburban regions. It is not a typical rapid transit system and neither is the current and planned so called metro lines, which are essentially commuter railways, masquerading as rapid transit systems. It is disingenuous to classify the Sydney suburban DD system as 'interurban', which is a separate entity serving adjoining regional areas outside the Sydney metropolitan area.

You're always quick to blame previous Labor governments for introducing double-deckers, but in hindsight it was the right decision at the time. Later LNP governments, including the current government, have followed suit. The alternative was to increase the train lengths which would have required the lengthening of most station platforms on the network, which apart from the cost, would have been impracticable on the City Underground. It's a strategy being followed by other suburban commuter railways, as distinct from interurban, where their loading gauges permit it.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:15 pm For all this talk that the reason Sydney went down the double deck path was solely down to NSW having a Labor government, it was only the 120 Tulloch trailers that were ordered by that administration. The contract to develop the prototype double decker power cars was awarded by the Askin government in 1966, as was the one for the first production examples in 1970, with further orders placed before the government changed in 1976.

Sydney, like most other cities, suffered as revenues collapsed in the post World War II era and governments naturally sought cost efficiencies to balance the books. While investment was an easy target, it didn't entirely dry up, quadruplication of the Western line from Lidcombe to Granville and Westmead to Seven Hills was conducted in the 1950s, as was electrification of the line west of Blacktown.
Exactly!
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

My issue is still about the wisdom of converting existing lines to metro in mixed traffic environments, with the compromises that have to be made, as distinct from new greenfield metro lines. There also appears to be little regard to how it impacts on the efficiency of the residual rail network, which is further exemplified by the proposal to convert and extend the South West Rail Link to metro from Glenfield to Bradfield.

Still waiting to hear tonyp about other legacy commuter rail systems converting to driverless metro (GoA4). Even London's Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) will run in mixed traffic conditions on its outer branches under manual control, with GoA2 automation through the London City central core.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Transtopic wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:38 pm The alternative was to increase the train lengths which would have required the lengthening of most station platforms on the network, which apart from the cost, would have been impracticable on the City Underground.
Have cars signified as not underground so people know to get on the cars that will fit at the underground platforms.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Merc1107
Posts: 2243
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Favourite Vehicle: MAN 18.310, MB O405NH, L94
Location: A Coastal City

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Merc1107 »

Transtopic wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:28 pm
moa999 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:14 am Ignoring any signalling upgrades the Metro can run at high frequencies due to lower dwell times with three doors and no interior stairs and choke points.

And this Metro line won't share the city circle with two other railway lines which introduces further frequency impediments.
In the context of the Bankstown Line metro, it is proposed to operate at 15tph and not 30tph, which I seriously doubt would ever be warranted for the level of demand in the future. Comparing like with like, upgrading the existing network could also comfortably operate @ 15tph and dwell times wouldn't be an issue. As I have pointed out in my earlier post, an upgraded DD Bankstown Line all stations service would outperform the metro, with close to double the number of seats, which many metro protagonists choose to ignore, and a higher peak load capacity. The argument that the metro can run more services to match the seating capacity of an adequate DD service is false economy, which would require more metro trains than are necessary to cater for the total demand, i.e. with less seats and greater standing capacity. As I mentioned previously, the City Circle will also be upgraded with an additional 10tph.
Is the 15tph figure actually an all-stations scenario or a "best case" with services expressing through parts of the network?

The argument here seems to be getting hung up on seats, where it is pure carrying capacity that is the concern. Who is going to let several trains pass so they can sit for a while versus taking whichever shows up first? This is evidenced by passengers often choosing to stand over taking a seat next to someone (which is also quite common on buses.

It is also a bit hard to assert a 2 door decker will still out-perform a 3 dood SD.
There's no reason you have to have a standee-biased configuration. Perth, for instance, has used a variety of configurations: a mixed 2x2/perimeter affair, all-permiter seating, and on the 3 door sets about to be introduced, 2 abreast one side, perimeter seating on the other. Are they as big as Sydney, hell no. However I do note other big cities like London and New York have spent many years experimenting to find the optimal seating arrangement.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Merc1107 wrote: Who is going to let several trains pass so they can sit for a while versus taking whichever shows up first?
I for one will let a full and standing train go by if I reckon there is a reasonable chance that the following service is less crowded, doubt I am alone. For some time is everything, others will place more emphasis on comfort.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

By comfort I mean not being pressed against other people whilst standing or being jammed against the window by big people.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

Swift wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:38 am
Transtopic wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:38 pm The alternative was to increase the train lengths which would have required the lengthening of most station platforms on the network, which apart from the cost, would have been impracticable on the City Underground.
Have cars signified as not underground so people know to get on the cars that will fit at the underground platforms.
No, that's not a practical alternative. Pretty meaningless now though after all these years.
Transtopic
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:10 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

Merc1107 wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:21 am
Transtopic wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:28 pm
In the context of the Bankstown Line metro, it is proposed to operate at 15tph and not 30tph, which I seriously doubt would ever be warranted for the level of demand in the future. Comparing like with like, upgrading the existing network could also comfortably operate @ 15tph and dwell times wouldn't be an issue. As I have pointed out in my earlier post, an upgraded DD Bankstown Line all stations service would outperform the metro, with close to double the number of seats, which many metro protagonists choose to ignore, and a higher peak load capacity. The argument that the metro can run more services to match the seating capacity of an adequate DD service is false economy, which would require more metro trains than are necessary to cater for the total demand, i.e. with less seats and greater standing capacity. As I mentioned previously, the City Circle will also be upgraded with an additional 10tph.
Is the 15tph figure actually an all-stations scenario or a "best case" with services expressing through parts of the network?

The argument here seems to be getting hung up on seats, where it is pure carrying capacity that is the concern. Who is going to let several trains pass so they can sit for a while versus taking whichever shows up first? This is evidenced by passengers often choosing to stand over taking a seat next to someone (which is also quite common on buses.

It is also a bit hard to assert a 2 door decker will still out-perform a 3 dood SD.
There's no reason you have to have a standee-biased configuration. Perth, for instance, has used a variety of configurations: a mixed 2x2/perimeter affair, all-permiter seating, and on the 3 door sets about to be introduced, 2 abreast one side, perimeter seating on the other. Are they as big as Sydney, hell no. However I do note other big cities like London and New York have spent many years experimenting to find the optimal seating arrangement.
The 15tph figure I have quoted is for an all stations service by both modes. I'm comparing like with like. That's all that is ever likely to be needed on the Bankstown Line. Running up to 30tph would be overkill, unless the metro line through the CBD is branched, which BTW was the original intention. Contrary to the views of some, including the government, seats are an important consideration, which is by and large overlooked for longer journeys. Previous studies carried out by Railcorp found that 20 minutes was about the limit that commuters would tolerate for standing.

The fact remains that @ 15tph, a 2 door DD does outperform a 3 door SD, as I mentioned previously. The only benefit that SD might have is faster journey times, but by how much is still to be confirmed. It's pointless comparing journey times with the current DD operations, rather than the enhanced performance with the digital signalling upgrades. Using the Douglas Economics relative carrying capacities, even comparing DD @ 24tph with SD @ 30tph, DD would have a seating capacity of 21,600ph and peak load capacity of 33,600ph. SD would have seating capacity of 15,120ph and peak load capacity the same at 33,600ph. The government has been falsely comparing a moderately loaded DD train with a crush loaded SD metro.
moa999
Posts: 2923
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by moa999 »


Transtopic wrote: The 15tph figure I have quoted is for an all stations service by both modes. I'm comparing like with like..
But it's a pointless comparison and an obvious result.

It's like saying there would be more capacity for Qantas flying and A380 15x daily between SYD and MEL than a 737 15x.

But they fly the 737s for some very analogous reasons.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote:
Swift wrote: Have cars signified as not underground so people know to get on the cars that will fit at the underground platforms.
No, that's not a practical alternative. Pretty meaningless now though after all these years.
Does happen on some systems, e.g. the Northern and Circle lines on the London Underground, but in the case of the former not at key city stations, and the latter are walk through trains, something that wasn't available when Sydney went double deck in the 1960s.
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

The north western section of this metro system was a on again off again underground double deck line witch was constantly being changed between Chatswood-Parramatta via Epping and the north west rail link that became stage 1 of the metro
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

How long will the trip be from Tallawong to Bankstown?
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:14 pm How long will the trip be from Tallawong to Bankstown?
It would be around 90 minutes to 2 hours minimum for a full end to end trip
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:44 pm
Swift wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:14 pm How long will the trip be from Tallawong to Bankstown?
It would be around 90 minutes to 2 hours minimum for a full end to end trip
No offence CB but huh?
Do you mean maximum of 2 hours. I doubt it will be scheduled for that long but over an hour I won't be surprised.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”