Other Body Builders Discussion / Observations

[tonyp]

I did a bit of research on the new Scania C250EB Bustech VST-E for Adelaide - it's been hailed as the first battery-electric bus for Adelaide. What about the Bustech ZDi? From what I know, there were two demonstrator ZDi units operating in Adelaide for some time.

The Scania Product brochure claims that its vehicles can operate "in temperatures from -35°C to +40°, for all conditions up to 16% slopes, without compromising vehicle speed". I don't think Adelaide ever reaches 40+ temperatures, but if the C250EB is ordered by operators in NSW, QLD or the NT, this would undoubtedly cause some issues.

Unusually, the brochure also claims this for the electric motor:

"Battery capacity: 254 kWh or 330 kWh, Lithium-Ion (NMC)
8 or 10 battery packs placed 4 in rear and 4 or 6 on the roof"

The brochure does not seem to suggest that there are any full-low floor options for the C250EB chassis. Additionally, its range of 280km, even with the additional batteries, seems quite measly compared to the Element, which has almost double the range with 6 378kW battery packs.

And the final issue I have with the C250EB is that it has a service life of 'up to 10 years, depending on operating conditions'. That doesn't exactly seem very optimistic. Although the Element also comes with a 10 year warranty, the 'up to' concerns me. I'm a great fan of Scania diesel products in general, however this electric bus seems like it's designed to be replaced. Even if the C250EB gets Panel 3 approved in NSW, the only reason I can see any operators purchasing it would be brand loyalty.

I'm sorry I can't upload my chassis photos, I don't have the editing tools to reduce them to fit the file size acceptable here. I can assure you that it's a fully low floor chassis. It's not an option, that's standard, like the N series.

Typically, European buses are built for a life of about 12-15 years. The Element is built for a 25 year life in line with our local expectations. Electric buses in general should have a longer life though as they're not subjected to the mechanical stresses of a diesel bus. In the end, for a battery bus, lifespan is going to be determined by the economics of replacing the expensive battery packs relative to the physical condition of the bus. So the points in the life of the bus at which retirement is likely to be considered are at about 16 and 24 years.

European operators generally prioritise passenger capacity, so they're not great fans of battery buses that are so heavy that they have to reduce the passenger capacity. Instead they tend to have a smaller number of batteries and use a pantograph to top up charge at termini while in service. I think all the customers for this Scania so far are in Europe, so it's possibly Euro specified and not much adapted to the Australian market.

It's true that there were two "Mark 1" ZDi's in Adelaide. I gather they weren't very successful.

[Merc1107]

It's true that there were two "Mark 1" ZDi's in Adelaide. I gather they weren't very successful.

I don't believe they've ever spent any substantial amount of time on the road - all I've heard is "there were problems", without much indication what those problems were.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

Does Adelaide Metro have something to hide? I found a video of a Bustech ZDi operating in Adelaide, in service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkq_YSqvAWE

Clearly this bus did spend some time on the roads, therefore it would be incorrect to state that the C250EB is the first battery electric bus to operate in Adelaide. 1788 is listed in the Torrens Transit disposal list as a Bustech ZDi with a body dating from 2017, however its fleet number has now been given to a Foton FTH12. However, 1788 is the only ZDi I can find in the fleetlists for Adelaide; perhaps the other one was disposed of before it entered service.

I can't exactly see why the media would be so keen to gloss over the ZDi; even if it was unsuccessful, its body date would make it the oldest battery-electric bus in Australia, which sounds like something Adelaide should be proud about. I looked through the comments and apparently it "died completely after only a few weeks". The ZDis in Newcastle, however, seem to be faring much better, and they have the nicest sounds and best build quality of any electric bus I've seen so far.

[ScaniaGrenda]

Does Adelaide Metro have something to hide? I found a video of a Bustech ZDi operating in Adelaide, in service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkq_YSqvAWE

I can't exactly see why the media would be so keen to gloss over the ZDi; even if it was unsuccessful, its body date would make it the oldest battery-electric bus in Australia, which sounds like something Adelaide should be proud about. I looked through the comments and apparently it "died completely after only a few weeks". The ZDis in Newcastle, however, seem to be faring much better, and they have the nicest sounds and best build quality of any electric bus I've seen so far.

For your first point I'd say they'd want to jump on the bandwagon of promoting it because it is "Australian made" or rather built here in Australia.

As for the ZDI's in Newcastle, build quality is about what you'd expect from Bustech. I'm going to be a TonyP on this but compared to the Adelaide Metro Prototype, Newcastle's ZDI's are not flat floor, have a high-step gangway and they've annoyingly reintroduced that step at the rear exit unlike Volgren and Custom who have no problem with achieving this what so ever.

I said it in here the other week, If Bustech is wanting to achieve flat-floors the current body design of the Bustech range is holding it back, with some past photographic media I was able to find of the South Australia ZDI somewhere, even with it's flat-floor the window line still raises up towards the rear as if the chassis was was Low Entry so I see why to the dismay of many the Newcastle (And Clark Queensland) examples ditched the flat floor for the standard Low Entry chassis.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

What's wrong with a step by the centre door? It should be no more dangerous than the interior steps. I've been on several crowded services served by the VST, and standees tend to spread out more evenly than on other low-entry bodies. The only people who might be endangered by this would be the elderly (who would probably use the front door anyway) and people who are too absorbed in their mobile phones. The doors have handles for a reason; and the step isn't very large either.

A sloping interior floor means smaller interior steps, so if you fall down the stairs you won't be as badly injured. An issue many low-entry buses have, especially the Custom CB60 Evo II (with its higher floor) are that the interior steps are quite steep. Falling down those stairs is something no one would ever run the risk of, which explains why in most traditional low-entry buses, most standing passengers avoid moving up to the rear.

The smaller interior steps are also easier for those with limited mobility to use, allowing them to sit even at the rear. This is something not even full low-floor vehicles can boast about, as the seats at the rear of low-floor buses are still mounted on raised platforms.

Not to mention, unlike some other bus bodies (ahem, the Optimus) which use plastic ducting secured with loose bolts, the VST has powder coated steel ducting which does not rattle as much.

[Merc1107]

Not to mention, unlike some other bus bodies (ahem, the Optimus) which use plastic ducting secured with loose bolts, the VST has powder coated steel ducting which does not rattle as much.

Actually it's just press-studs holding the ducts together - push in, they snap into place. The ducting appears to slide onto tracks.

In Darwin buses originally delivered to Buslink (including Optimi) have powder-coated ductwork, whereas the former DBS examples are just plastic ducts. It helps, but a stronger, more rigid area just transmits the vibrations into something else... The CB80s up there were so much more pleasant in that respect.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

The CB80s are quite nice vehicles - not only do they look stylish, but they are also mostly rattle free. However, the hatches above the doors aren't often fastened properly which can lead to some rattling. I was also onboard Busways 3120 ST not too long ago (the last diesel delivered for State Transit), and despite being just over 3 years old there was some noticeable rattling coming from the engine bay - issues normally isolated to the Volvo B7RLE.

In Darwin buses originally delivered to Buslink (including Optimi) have powder-coated ductwork, whereas the former DBS examples are just plastic ducts. It helps, but a stronger, more rigid area just transmits the vibrations into something else...

Where else did the vibrations end up? The Custom Endeavour also has powder coated ducting, and have very few vibrations, even when passing over bumps.

[Merc1107]

Where else did the vibrations end up?

The ceiling panelling. I wouldn't have thought it could rattle, but I guess that was a stupid assumption given the glaring issues everywhere else on those bodies

[tonyp]

What's wrong with a step by the centre door? It should be no more dangerous than the interior steps. I've been on several crowded services served by the VST, and standees tend to spread out more evenly than on other low-entry bodies. The only people who might be endangered by this would be the elderly (who would probably use the front door anyway) and people who are too absorbed in their mobile phones. The doors have handles for a reason; and the step isn't very large either.

A sloping interior floor means smaller interior steps, so if you fall down the stairs you won't be as badly injured. An issue many low-entry buses have, especially the Custom CB60 Evo II (with its higher floor) are that the interior steps are quite steep. Falling down those stairs is something no one would ever run the risk of, which explains why in most traditional low-entry buses, most standing passengers avoid moving up to the rear.

The smaller interior steps are also easier for those with limited mobility to use, allowing them to sit even at the rear. This is something not even full low-floor vehicles can boast about, as the seats at the rear of low-floor buses are still mounted on raised platforms.

Not to mention, unlike some other bus bodies (ahem, the Optimus) which use plastic ducting secured with loose bolts, the VST has powder coated steel ducting which does not rattle as much.

It's a fundamental element of stair design that treads and risers must be of consistent dimensions, otherwise users can be thrown out by an unexpected variation in one of these dimensions. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any standard for vehicle stairs equivalent to the National Construction Code for buildings, so it's a bit of a free-for-all at the whim of the body builder, who also has to fit flooring around the lumps and bumps of different motor and other equipment shapes and sizes under the floor. It's also more serious in a vehicle than a building because the passenger is thrown around by movement and already has their hands full keeping stable, let alone worrying about unpredictable changes in flooring under their feet.

This is why a flat floor is really essential in a commuter vehicle where people are going to be standing and moving around. In a crowd, it can be also be difficult for people to see what is under their feet. It's simply bad practice to have stairs in an urban public transport vehicle and the Europeans recognised and acted on this some years ago. It's also not just safety, but the efficiency of movement and distribution inside and in and out of the vehicle. Bustech also has different size stair risers in the aisle and at the door. Even worse, on the ZDi, the doorway riser is tiny, which means that it's almost imperceptible, which makes it an even greater trip hazard.

Bustech's sloping floor may have reduced the number of steps inside the vehicle, but this has come at the cost of steps at one door, so no design progress is made at all.

The raised height of seats on plinths and wheel arches at the back of a flat floor bus is actually a benefit for people of less mobility (speaking as one myself), because you can actually get into the seat without having to squat down or have to pull yourself up to get out of the seat. You can simply get in and out of the seat at bum level, which is perfect. These are my favourite seats in a flat floor bus because you can walk right up to them and use them. In a low-entry bus with stairs in the aisle, if you have limited mobility you can't get to those seats because of the steps in the aisle.

In the 21st century, there are zero design excuses for stairs, either in the aisle or at the doors, in a single deck transit vehicle. Don't get me started on double deck trains or buses - though they're OK for long distance, limited stop, but not high turnover, stop-start city work.

[Lt. Commander Data]

The Scania Product brochure claims that its vehicles can operate "in temperatures from -35°C to +40°, for all conditions up to 16% slopes, without compromising vehicle speed". I don't think Adelaide ever reaches 40+ temperatures, but if the C250EB is ordered by operators in NSW, QLD or the NT, this would undoubtedly cause some issues.

Not sure where you get this idea - in summer Adelaide regularly has weeks at or above 40. While QLD/NT may feel “hotter” due to the high humidity, only Perth and sometimes Sydney trump Adelaide for high temperature.

The CB80s are quite nice vehicles - not only do they look stylish, but they are also mostly rattle free. However, the hatches above the doors aren't often fastened properly which can lead to some rattling.

With a statement like that, you have obviously never experienced an Adelaide CB80. Practically every panel in some will rattle, and I don’t think there is a single one of the ~300 strong fleet that could be described as “rattle free”.

Does Adelaide Metro have something to hide? I found a video of a Bustech ZDi operating in Adelaide, in service: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkq_YSqvAWE

Clearly this bus did spend some time on the roads, therefore it would be incorrect to state that the C250EB is the first battery electric bus to operate in Adelaide. 1788 is listed in the Torrens Transit disposal list as a Bustech ZDi with a body dating from 2017, however its fleet number has now been given to a Foton FTH12. However, 1788 is the only ZDi I can find in the fleetlists for Adelaide; perhaps the other one was disposed of before it entered service.

I can't exactly see why the media would be so keen to gloss over the ZDi; even if it was unsuccessful, its body date would make it the oldest battery-electric bus in Australia, which sounds like something Adelaide should be proud about. I looked through the comments and apparently it "died completely after only a few weeks". The ZDis in Newcastle, however, seem to be faring much better, and they have the nicest sounds and best build quality of any electric bus I've seen so far.

Would you advertise a bus that was retired before it ever properly entered service? I don’t know why, but I do know it would be political suicide to bring it to the attention of Joe Public. No matter which way you cut it, a failed battery electric bus trial is bad marketing - no matter if it was the first in the country.

[tonyp]

During this conversation, I wondered why nobody has mentioned Tindo. Or was that unsuccessful too?

https://www.bpswa.org/tindo.html

[busrider]

It hasn't been out for quite a while, and was bought new by the Adelaide City Council, not the state government/transport department. It was also built in NZ, so they don't get to claim locally sourced content on it either.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

Not sure where you get this idea - in summer Adelaide regularly has weeks at or above 40. While QLD/NT may feel “hotter” due to the high humidity, only Perth and sometimes Sydney trump Adelaide for high temperature.

I've never actually been to Adelaide, but I assumed that since it was on a similar line of longitude to Canberra that the climate would be the same. Obviously my assumption was misguided - I apologise for that.

Would you advertise a bus that was retired before it ever properly entered service? I don’t know why, but I do know it would be political suicide to bring it to the attention of Joe Public. No matter which way you cut it, a failed battery electric bus trial is bad marketing - no matter if it was the first in the country.

That is true. If the trial had been advertised back then, it would definitely have not been good for anyone involved - however Bustech may have used the (limited) data from the trial in improving the design of the ZDi.

Speaking of which, does anyone happen to know where the two ZDis are now? Apparently a third was also produced for export to Dubai, if it was anything like the Adelaide ZDis, it's probably sitting in a scrap heap by now.

[Lt. Commander Data]

Speaking of which, does anyone happen to know where the two ZDis are now? Apparently a third was also produced for export to Dubai, if it was anything like the Adelaide ZDis, it's probably sitting in a scrap heap by now.

I have seen a picture of them somewhere at the Bustech factory, stripped. So essentially they have been scrapped.

[tonyp]

There are two types of manufacturer. One that quietly develops and comprehensively tests a product, then runs the publicity with a launch. The other type has a long publicity blitz promising all sorts of wonderful results, then falls flat on its face with a defective product after launch. I've seen plenty of both over the years.

[ScaniaGrenda]

Body Builder "Express" in danger of potential closing if not approved for Panel 4

https://www.busnews.com.au/nsw-national ... r-closure/

[BAMBAM]

Body Builder "Express" in danger of potential closing if not approved for Panel 4

https://www.busnews.com.au/nsw-national ... r-closure/

Last time when Custom Coaches was on the potential of closing the Labor government did nothing and continued to buy Bustech's, which meant Customs went bust. Seems like Same Party, different government with different leaders and yet it looking likely it will follow the same path. From just a buff point of view, lets just hope they solve this issue before it's too late. Will be ironic if Express closes when before the Election Labor with Mr Mimms and Ms Hayden leading the charge was promoting more locally made transport with Buses, Trains and Ferry's to be made at least within the State or worst case Nationally.

[tonyp]

https://www.busnews.com.au/nsw-governme ... rer-delay/

[Randomness]

Typical to respond once it’s out in the media, but it’s a nice swift acknowledgement and resolution to the issue.

[ScaniaGrenda]

Another international brand closes up operations in Australia, EBusco

https://www.busnews.com.au/ebusco-annou ... perations/

Wonder what became of the demonstrator model that was touring the Bus Expo two years back.

[tonyp]

Another international brand closes up operations in Australia, EBusco

https://www.busnews.com.au/ebusco-annou ... perations/

Wonder what became of the demonstrator model that was touring the Bus Expo two years back.

Inevitable. A small manufacturer can't compete with Chinese prices, so joins them instead. The Ebusco 2.0 is manufactured in China already. Ditching RHD and concentrating on the European market is probably part of the restructure.

[ScaniaGrenda]

Doesn't really help either that Ebusco outside of certain European markets isn't really a well known brandname and would take a lot to build up a reputation here and compete with Scania & Volvo. After the 2022 Bus & Coach Expo it seemed everything in terms of development for them here really died down, no mentions of demonstrating with operators (regionally or urban) unless I missed it, marketing was... non-existent unless perhaps it was in the know industry or you went directly to their social media posts if you could find updates.

I know someone is bound to chime in and say "Well just because you think that way doesn't mean anything wasn't happening".

My answer is then, was there really progress to begin with especially if that demonstrator vanished after the expo?