Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
RK215
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Post by RK215 »

mrobsessed wrote:I now work with a bloke who was absorbed by the MTT (Perth)from Emu buses in about 1958. He mentioned the Royal Tigers, and when I brought this up, he remembered them fondly, saying that the air assistance was disconnected because they were so light, drivers would "flick" them from one gear to the other, like flat changing a pneumo, eating synchros for breakfast. After that, apparently they were quite heavy.
From that I would infer that they air assistance mechanism itself was quite effective, and that the reason for its deactivation was not because of any intrinsic difficulty, but because it was easily misused/abused.

I have recently acquired a September 1954 specification for the export Leyland-MCW Olympic, which was an integral bus that used Leyland Royal Tiger running units. The air-assisted gearchange is listed as a standard feature. From this one can deduce that Leyland retained the air assisted gearchange right through to the end of Royal Tiger and Olympic (first series) production. This also suggests that Leyland did not see it as having any intrinsic problems.

September 1954 was when the Worldmaster was announced. Final Royal Tiger production overlapped initial Worldmaster production, extending into early 1955 as far as I know. By this some, some Royal Tigers were being fitted with Pneumocyclic gearboxes, although I don’t think that it was ever a listed option, nor was a separate model number suffix used for it. The Olympic Series II, based upon Worldmaster running units, was announced early in 1955 as far as I know.

Cheers,
RK215
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

As something of a postscript to this thread, apparently both Leyland and AEC kept very quite about the fitment of AEC air-operated preselector gearboxes to the Sydney and Auckland Royal Tigers (and the Sydney Titans and Tigers).

Issue No. 37 (Autumn 2007) of the Leyland Society Magazine “Leyland Torque” has a letter to the editor from noted British bus subject author Alan Townsin, in which he notes that he was unaware of, and quite surprised to learn about these variants. Given that Alan Townsin is probably the most engineering-oriented of the UK bus writers of the last three decades or so, that would explain why these AEC preselector-fitted Leylands were overlooked in the British literature, including in both editions of Doug Jack’s tome “The Leyland Bus”.

Also it seems, the availability of the air-assisted synchromesh gearbox on the export Royal Tiger was similarly unknown in the UK. Whether it was an option on the domestic Royal Tiger (PSU1 series) I do not know, as I have not yet been able to track down a specification or sales brochure for these, although I now have three editions covering the export models. Still, most domestic Royal Tigers would have been vacuum-braked (or perhaps vacuum underbraked would be a better term here), which choice would have excluded the air-assisted gearchange option.

So, one might say that the surviving Sydney and Auckland preselector-fitted Royal Tigers have obscurity as well as rarity value. And maybe the same is true for any synchromesh Royal Tigers that have survived and which still retain the air-assisted gearchange mechanism.

Regarding the handbrake lever placement, the original Royal Tiger chassis lacked the driver’s side chassis short outboard runner that was used on later models, starting with the Tiger Cub, and which served as a handbrake lever mounting point. Rather the handbrake lever was mounted inside the chassis rail, and so inside of the driver. The modification was the addition of an outboard runner, with the handbrake lever mounted inside of that – i.e. to the driver’s outside – and connected to the linkage by an underslung cross-shaft.

Cheers,
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system improver
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by system improver »

I sat down one day and tried to read this thread from whoa to go but, although very interesting, it made my head hurt. What would make the information so much easier to understand, especially for those who aren't mechanics or engineers but have observed these things over the years, is a few pictures or links to pictures. Having said that, I do marvel at the way RK215 can construct sentences. I wish I was as literate.
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by wes »

system improver wrote:I sat down one day and tried to read this thread from whoa to go but, although very interesting, it made my head hurt. What would make the information so much easier to understand, especially for those who aren't mechanics or engineers but have observed these things over the years, is a few pictures or links to pictures. Having said that, I do marvel at the way RK215 can construct sentences. I wish I was as literate.
.I totally agree with system improver...
Mr Obsessed i also remember all the old rutty's stuff and would love to see photos of all the old girls
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jac
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by jac »

Have found this thread invaluable for enhancing my knowledge of Royal Tigers and correcting a few wrong ideas.
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RK215
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

Firstly, thanks for the feedback and kind words from system improver, wes and jac. This thread has certainly meandered at lot, and has covered several related but distinct topics. So probably it could do with being rewritten in several chapters for clarity, and to connect the diverse information that has arrived from many sources. In daydreaming mode, it’s a tempting, but fleeting thought to try it, but then reality appears to remind me that I am seriously behind on a couple of such endeavours on other subjects, which need to be finished first. Definitely it would be much enhanced by diagrams and photographs; unfortunately those to which I have access are not in the public domain.

Secondly, I have since been able to track down some information on the UK domestic version of the Royal Tiger, the PSU1, which was dimensionally similar to the OPSU3 export version. For the domestic version, vacuum brakes were standard and air brakes were optional. And where the latter were fitted, the air-assisted gearshift was also optional. As far as I know, only a minority of UK Royal Tiger operators chose the air brake option, and I would hazard a guess that very few of those also asked for the air-assisted gearshift. Many UK operators seem to have been quite careful in regard to “extras” or “improvements” over basic specifications. Anyway, the air-assisted gearshift was probably rare enough that its existence was unknown to many in the UK industry, hence its complete lack of mention in the literature.

I still haven’t found any details of the air-assisted gearshift mechanism itself. Quite likely the Royal Tiger was the subject of UK trade press (“Commercial Motor”, “Bus & Coach”, etc.) articles during 1950, and possibly these had a description of the mechanism. However, such publications are now exceedingly hard to find.

Cheers,
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Dave Wilson
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by Dave Wilson »

I should add that the prototype Sydney Royal Tiger is running again - it has had a replacement engine and radiator fitted. A prime subject for restoration, unfortunately the body is very poor to chronic and being non standard, fittings (interior trims etc) are problematical and impossible to source. Having said that,I'm fairly sure that the remains of the air assisted gear change are extant.I'll have to try and photograph this feature one day.

Attached is a new photograph (although blurred) of the bus at Kingsgrove Depot about 1952
Image
RK215
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

Dave Wilson wrote:Having said that,I'm fairly sure that the remains of the air assisted gear change are extant.I'll have to try and photograph this feature one day.
Thanks Dave; that would be useful. As best I can determine, the air-assistance unit was bolted on to the back of the selector housing, which was on the right hand side of the gearbox. My guess is that it comprised a double-sided air piston and a couple of reaction valves, one for each of the fore-and-aft directions. The Leyland four-speed gearbox of the time had synchromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th, with 1st being sliding mesh. So one can wonder whether or not the air assistance action was inhibited for 1st gear (and reverse for that matter). I don’t think that any Royal Tigers were fitted with the later (from circa 1955) four-speed gearbox, which had synchromesh on 3rd and 4th only, albeit that 1st (as well as 2nd) was constant mesh. Deactivation of the air assistance could have involved simply disconnecting the air lines to it, or perhaps its complete removal.

My guess is that Leyland had the assistance unit made for it by one of the air equipment suppliers, such as Clayton Dewandre or Westinghouse. Its offtake was probably sufficient to justify a bespoke design, in contrast to Daimler, who evidently had to use standard brake system components when it wanted to offer pneumatic versions of its CD650 and Freeline models. Royal Tiger production topped 6000 over about five years. I would guess that 80% were export models, and so very likely fitted with the air assisted gearshift, except for a few at the tail end that had Pneumocyclic gearboxes, and of course the 50 each for Auckland and Sydney with AEC air-operated preslector gearboxes.

Apparently the magazine “Truck & Bus Transportation” published a road test of the Royal Tiger in its July, 1951 issue. I haven’t been able to track down a copy, but I think that there may be a good chance that the air-assisted gearshift was commented upon, and perhaps functionally described therein.

Cheers,
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

An item briefly noted earlier in this thread was that the Sydney Worldmasters must have been “special” models insofar as they had a non-standard, 17’6” wheelbase, but that this seems to have escaped mention in the literature, although the non-standard nature of the Leopard fleet is well-recorded. Recently I had a careful look through the excellent Greg Travers book, “From City to Suburb… a fifty year journey”. There is no direct mention of the Worldmaster wheelbase, but there is indirect confirmation. In respect of the Atlantean fleet, it is noted that they were the first buses since the war years to have a wheelbase other than 17’6”.

Leyland would surely have known about the Sydney standard wheelbase requirement, and just as surely would have had Sydney in its sights as a significant potential customer for the Worldmaster model. Quite possibly the design process for the Worldmaster made provision for a 17’6” wheelbase model, even though such was not going to be part of the standard offering. Considering that the Worldmaster was announced in September 1954, and the first Sydney order - for 125 - was placed in April 1955, on the basis of a tender that had closed in January, 1955, at least the Sydney version must have been on the drawing board very early on.

Given that the Worldmaster – or Royal Tiger Mk II, Worldmaster to use its full original name - was intended to capitalize on the success of the Royal Tiger, one assumes that Leyland carefully assessed the market needs in determining what wheelbase/overall length combinations to offer, which were wheelbases of 16’3”, 18’0” and 20.0” for nominal overall lengths of 30, 34 and 36 ft respectively. In practice, the 18’0” wheelbase ERT1 model was often fitted with 35 ft bodies, and I think that the Adelaide CRT2 fleet had 37’6” bodies. Anyway, the combinations did differ from those that had been offered for the Royal Tiger, which were wheelbases of 15’7”, 17’6” and 20’4” for nominal overall lengths of 30, 32 and 35 ft respectively, although the 17’6” wheelbase OPSU1 was usually associated with 33 ft bodies.

The chassis length of the standard ERT1 was 33’3”, so some shortening would have been needed to accommodate 33 ft overall bodies, whether in terms of wheelbase or otherwise. As best I can determine, all standard Worldmaster variants had the same engine and transmission positioning relative to the rear axle, as well as the same front overhang. Accordingly, it would have been relatively straightforward to accommodate any wheelbase between 16’3” and 20’0” without major design effort being required, just by varying the chassis length between the front axle and the engine. I do not know that it was done this way for the Sydney Worldmasters, but it seems reasonably likely.

Perhaps, then, Leyland simply viewed the 17’6” wheelbase Worldmaster variant as being in the nature of an “unlisted option” for the ERT1, available from the start, and something that required neither a change of designation, such as a different primary number or different suffix number, nor a “special” suffix as had been used with the Sydney OPS2 and OPSU1 fleets, and the final batch of OPD2s.

I don’t know the origins of Sydney’s 17’6” wheelbase standard, but it certainly aligned well with what many of the UK builders were doing from the 1940s through to the 1960s. The Leyland Titan OPD2 and Tiger OPS2 models both had 17’6” wheelbases, as did the export version of the AEC Regent III. It was one of several choices for the AEC Regal III, and it was also an option for the Leyland Royal Tiger, as noted above, and for the AEC Regal IV. Had Sydney been interested in the Daimler Freeline or Guy Arab UF, both of these had a 17’6” wheelbase option.

A corollary question is – did any other Australian operators receive Sydney specification Worldmasters with 17’6” wheelbase? Or were other ERT1 users content with the standard, 18’0” wheelbase version?

As with the Worldmaster case, in the early 1960s Leyland may well have anticipated the need for a 17’6” wheelbase version of the Royal Tiger Cub and/or Leopard PSU3 to suit Sydney and perhaps other operators. Here, though, there was an unknown, namely how soon – if at all - would the major operators of “heavyweights” – Worldmasters and Regals – switch to “medium weight” models. As it turned out, Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth stayed with heavyweight models during the first half of the 1960s, overall favouring the Regal VI, Sydney wasn’t buying in that period, whilst Brisbane alone moved to the Reliance 590 and the Leopard PSU3 “special” with 17’6” wheelbase for 33 ft overall length.

An apparently unanswered question is did Sydney prototype no. 3520 conform to the 17’6” standard wheelbase? It has been described as having a “stock” Leopard PSU3/2RT chassis; if that were the case, then it would have had an 18’6” wheelbase. But at least one very reputable source indicates that it had a Royal Tiger Cub RTC1/1 chassis, in which case, if standard, it would have had an 18’0” wheelbase. I wonder too, whether back in 1964 Leyland would have offered air suspension variants as “stock”, or whether they would have been special order models.

On the other hand, there seems little doubt that companion prototype no. 3521 did have a 17’6” wheelbase, as AEC had offered that option on the Reliance since circa 1957. But was it a Reliance? It is referred to as a “3U2RA” model, which would have made it a Regal VI. AEC’s “U” series designation was shared by the Reliance and Regal VI. The U was the original Regal VI, the 2U was the Reliance 590, the 3U was the Regal VI with air suspension (as used in Melbourne), the 4U was the Reliance 590 with air suspension (as used in Brisbane), the 5U was the Regal VI with AH691 engine, the 6U was the Reliance 691 (later 760), the 7U was, notionally at least, and air suspension Regal VI 691, and the 8U was a Reliance 691 with air or coil suspension. So, 3521 seems to have an identity question as well. Could it have been an AH590-engined Regal VI, 17’6” wheelbase version? But then an AH590-engined Regal VI would hardly have been a “stock” model.

As something of a sidebar issue, the terms “heavyweight”, medium weight” etc., are frequently used as classification terms for the British underfloor-engined models. I have never come across any “hard” definitions of these terms, but the builders’ gvw numbers tell their own story. Here is a selection of numbers readily to hand:

Leyland Worldmaster 13¼ tons, optionally 15 tons
Leyland Tiger Cub 9 tons (bus), 9½ tons (coach)
Leyland Leopard L 11 tons
Leyland Royal Tiger Cub 13 tons
Leyland Leopard PSU3 11¼ tons, optionally 13 tons
Leyland Panther 12 tons, optionally 16 tons

AEC Regal IV (late version) 15½ tons
AEC Reliance MU, 2MU 9½ tons (domestic), 11½ tons (export)
AEC Reliance HMU, 2HMU 11½ tons
AEC Regal VI 15¾ tons
AEC Reliance 505 Domestic 9½ tons (30 ft), 12 tons (36 ft & 11 m), 11¼ tons (10 m)
AEC Reliance 505 Export 11 tons (30 & 33 ft), 12 tons (36 ft)
AEC Reliance 691 Domestic 12½ tons (36 ft)
AEC Reliance 691 Export 13 tons (33 & 36 ft)


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Doc68
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Post by Doc68 »

mrobsessed wrote:At Rutty's, 2520 (36) was not for the faint-hearted. They had RTC1s they had with the same driveline, but 36 was a real challenge. There wasn't much synchro left when it retired. It was a "roll your cigarette" job between 1st and 2nd, and if you missed it, start all over again. Like all of Rutty's stuff, it recieved a high speed diff.
Like all Rutty's manual Leylands 2520 had the 1st 2nd constant mesh 3rd 4th worn synchro in her (prob changed when the synchro box buggered up :lol: technical term sorry)
I remember a school run I used to do round a bend then up a hill 3rd back to second she'd slip the gate (no warning no feel) to let you touch reverse :evil: lose momentum only save was straight back to first all the way to the top of the hill :roll:

mrobsessed wrote:A mate, who used to drive 2520, would get it to the right revs on a hill and was able to snap it through. If he even got it a bit wrong (which he seldom did) it was suicide for man and bus.
Anyone I know ???
mrobsessed wrote:I think you're right, 2520s handbrake was on the left.
Yes it was, and if you sat with your foot down on the clutch it wasn't long before it was pushing you up the seat


And the AEC synchro box was a pig of a thing I still have a scar on my left thumb from being on top of gearknob and trying to get reverse when the clearance between lifted stick (& knob) & money tray or machine bracket was insufficient room for a thumb as well as gearknob (lucky was in yard & no members of the travelling public could hear me say oh bother & gracious me that smarts) Pig of a box typical I spose all synchro boxes are pigs but AEC worst of all preselect or mono AEC any day
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RK215
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

As something of a postscript to this old thread, intermittently I have looked for information on the gearbox air assistance unit used on the Leyland Royal Tiger with the original Leyland 4-speed synchromesh gearbox (synchromesh 2, 3 and 4; sliding mesh 1st).

Whilst I have found nothing definitive, circumstantial evidence suggests that it was, not too surprisingly, a Clayton Dewandre unit.

One (of two) pieces of evidence is the Clayton Dewandre entry in the 1952 Earl’s Court Commercial Motor Show catalogue. Amongst the exhibits listed is “sectioned model servo for air pressure assisted gear change”. I think that there is a good chance that this was the Royal Tiger unit, as very few other vehicles of the period were listed with air assisted gear change.

The other piece is a Clayton Dewandre catalogue, undated but which circumstantially is of 1960 vintage. Amongst the items described and pictured therein is a gear shift servo, for which the description is:

“The gear shift servo is designed to reduce the manual effort otherwise required and to increase the sensitivity of control for gear changing on underfloor and rear-engined vehicles where the gearbox position necessitates extensive rodding. The servo forms an extension of the gearbox with the actuating and operating shafts passing through the gearbox housing. When a gear is selected, air pressure is communicated to the appropriate side of the servo’s double-acting cylinder to augment the manual effort. Manual application is retained in the event of air pressure failure.“
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

Some more information on the Leyland Royal Tiger air-assisted synchromesh gear box may be found in the Commercial Motor magazine archives, at: http://archive.commercialmotor.com/.

This article on British transmissions generally includes a description of the Clayton Dewandre unit used by Leyland:

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/arti ... efficiency

And it is mentioned in this pair of articles covering the launch of the Royal Tiger chassis:

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/arti ... talunderfl

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/arti ... ed-chassis

Incidentally, the reference to vacuum assistance in the second article is, I think, an error.

Whilst the Leyland need for a gearbox air assistance unit disappeared in 1955 once the Royal Tiger was displaced by the Worldmaster, Clayton Dewandre continued its development work, as seen in these two items:

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/arti ... -servo-for

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/arti ... r-changing

Returning to the Royal Tiger itself, some of the late production examples were fitted with Pneumocyclic gearboxes, although as far as I know it was never a regular production option:

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/arti ... -mountains

Although not mentioned in that article, I imagine that most of the re-engineering needed to accommodate the remote-mounted Wilson gearbox had already been done for the Sydney and Auckland Royal Tiger variants.

Cheers,
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mrobsessed
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by mrobsessed »

Amazing really that a similar air assistance system is still on the Merc 0 500 coach chassis and many others that are not fully electronic now.

Thanks for bumping this thread up RK215.
lunchbox
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by lunchbox »

What a wealth of knowledge (above) !
At least one Sydney operator had a Royal Tiger with a manual box. Western Road Transport (out of Parramatta) had a driver of small stature. When he had to change gears he had to almost stand up in order to depress the clutch pedal. Steering required two hands.
Needless to say he was never able to turn the steering wheel and change gears at the same time !
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by ET74 »

Hi RK215
Just read a great history from you. As a newcomer to this group I keep finding info that still fascinates me and starts my senses recalling the past.
At least, an October 1961 Leopard brochure, covering the L and PSU3 models, refers to the spheroidal 600 engine, which was available with two settings, 125 hp at 1700 rev/min for bus applications, and 130 hp at 2200 rev/min for coach applications. As the PSU3 was announced around July/August 1961, this must have been a very early edition of the Leopard brochure covering it.
Leyland-MCW Olympic

Just a couple of recalls:-
Can you remember in 1964 when the m.v.Yamashiro Maru collided with the m.v.Magdeburg which sunk in the Thames estuary?
(This event is really worth a good search for members google it and enjoy it)
The Magdeburg was an East German ship and had on deck 42 Leyland-MCW Olympic buses bound for Cuba. Lord Stokes had done a deal to supply Cuba with a lot of buses and caused a big stir. Now there are even theories that the CIA was involved.

Whilst I was in England a few of my Aussie friends had asked me to look at some of these salvaged buses with the idea of buying one and driving it to Australia. Would be a great bus with rugged body very basic, no windows only steel bars and wooden slat seats and would take a bit of knocking around on a trip to downunder.

I was at that time a Service Engineer with Leyland Motors based in Chorley and was driving back from a visit to Black and White Motorway Coaches in Cheltenham. They had just taken delivery of a 3 new Leopards and complained they were slow, had no power and their earlier Leopards could rung rings around them
A simple test drive and timing to reach 60 MPH confirmed their complaint.

Their old Chief Engineer Arthur Gorton was real character, took one look at me and later rang the head of the Service Dept and told him to send a REAL engineer next time not a young inexperienced Aussie.

Back to the story I found that the only difference between the early and late Leopards was that the later engines were fitted with CAV DPA fuel pumps as against Simms inline pumps.

The service engineers had access to the research dept and engine testing dept and I found the engine dyno tests for both type of engines. Both were rated the same Horsepower at the max revs 2200 but the torque curves were very different. One was quite flat and the other peaked and then dropped off at the higher revs.

The later DPA pump engines had been limited to keep the same Horse Power figures at the max revs but lost its torque at the higher revs.

Then I took them to the Chief Service Engineer and he told me to talk to the Chief Engineer of Engines, which I did.
I felt a bit embarrassed when he took the research test results and pointed to the signature on the bottom and smiled and said they were his.

What I had found was bit of a blunder and on all subsequent engines and ones already in service the fuel settings on the DPA pump had to be modified.

This was a bit tricky to a do in the field as we had to measure the distance of rotation of a plate inside the pump hoping that no dirt entered the pump.

Back to Black and White Motorway Services and I changed the settings on all the pumps and resealed the pumps afterwards.

The owner in the meantime was still raving on about an Aussie youngster but I had let fly a few times back at him and as I was soon to be returning to Aus. I gave him a bit of a blast as I finished the last bus.

He stormed off and one of his mechanics said Nobody would ever speak like that to the Guv'n. However at about 4 pm the Guv rang me at my hotel and asked if I was going back to Chorley and if I had had a shower yet.

I had had a shower as I had diesel all over me and smelt. I said yes and goodbye, but 10 mins later he knocked on my door and said he would like to buy me a drink.

As an Aussie should never say No to a free drink I went outside with him and he opened the door to his Rolls for me. I think it was his girlfriend driving and what a night it was. We started with a few drinks a local pub and then a meal.

By this time the Guv was talking me up and calling me his young Welsh named Aussie Friend who fixed his buses.
We then drove into Wales and did a long pup crawl even after closing time. At each closed Pub we went to the back door and it was opened and more drinking. The Guv was a great host and even tried to get me to sing me being of Welsh ancestry.

What a night to remember and the trip to Southend next day to view the Cuban Bus was a bit slow.

PS
I met up with the same Leyland Chief Engineer some years later and he remembered me.
Interesting that it was over some problems with black smoke belching out of Leyland Panther’s 680 Power Plus engines fitted with the same CAV DPA fuel pumps. The Police were issuing yellow stickers on these new Panthers and putting them off the road.

I had done some dyno tests on an engine at MTT Kensington St Workshops and showed a group of Leyland Exec’s when they were on a trip thru Australia. I think his words were something like "Not CAV Pumps again."

However that's another story for later and also you have mentioned the close coulpled gearbox on the Panthers and the radiators at the rear which also had serious problems.

I can add a quite few more mechanical knowledge points to many of the topics raised in this post if you would like.

Interesting also that I read in this post about how specs were put together for export and I can relate to this as I worked at AEC in 1963 and spent about 3 months in the export dept. under Allan Moon and later with the export dept. at Leyland’s in London. Quite an experience !!!

Cheers
First PSV I drove was from Mt Lawley to East Perth Carbarn 64 years ago was a WAGT E-class Bogie .

The last a Mercedes Benz O305 in 1976

In between have driven many types old and new.
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ET74
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by ET74 »

Hi RK215. and others

Found these images of the Cuban saga

http://www.flickr.com/photos/autobuses/ ... otostream/

Shows some of MCW workshop manufacturing the buses.
Hope you enjoy it I did

Cheers
First PSV I drove was from Mt Lawley to East Perth Carbarn 64 years ago was a WAGT E-class Bogie .

The last a Mercedes Benz O305 in 1976

In between have driven many types old and new.
Maladjusted
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by Maladjusted »

Interesting story about the MV Madgeburg, understandably the Yanks would have been antsey about Lord Stokes selling things to Cuba, however would they have gone to that length to stop delivery? Its possible, i suppose, they wouldn't have travelled very far to that point!
I'm sure i recall seeing the article in Truck & Bus Magazine. Do I remember correctly some of these came to Australia for parts?

Regarding the Royal Tiger, am sure Brisbane did receive the 17'6" chassis, will have to look at the Leyland drawings here to substantiate it.
The Worldmaster service manual also shows that air assist manual gearchange, though in Brisbane we only had the SCG.

Interesting to hear about the DPA leopard/Panther fuel problems. I remember resetting that ring in the pump too, however my experience was only on the test bench!

Just wish now I had taken the Leyland microfiche collection of all leyland buses build sheets Volvo had, it was a big folder and distributed to all the state bus dealers back when Volvo took over in late 80's.
I had a look through a couple of times back then and it was pretty interesting how many were built in batches and the variations for different bus companies. I remember some of the biggest purchases in what i was looking at were Ulsterbus.
Who bleedin thanked me? I was just doin my job
RK215
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

I was surprised to find that I could still log in here after a rather long absence. Anyway, as I am here, I may as well add some more to this old thread.

Re the Leyland Royal Tiger OPSU1 fitted with the AEC air-operated preselector gearbox, the conventional wisdom, as it were, is that the only batches so fitted were the 50 each for Sydney and Auckland. However, a while back I recently received information, including an old Leyland gearbox list that suggests that there may have been others.

This list showed the GB81, GB82 and GB90 designations used for Wilson gearboxes in the era at interest. The GB81 was described as an AEC unit, and appears to have been that fitted to the Sydney (and probably Auckland) Royal Tigers. GB82 was associated with LOPSU1, the left-hand drive chassis, and GB90 was shown as a special for Cuba. The last mentioned suggests that at least some of the large fleet of Cuban LOPSU1 Royal Tigers might have been fitted with Wilson gearboxes. And the existence of the GB82 entry suggests that there may have been other LOPSU1s so fitted. Of course, it is always possible that these covered variations mapped out but never built.

Also, the designation GB94 was used for the standard SCG RV16 Wilson gearbox, this being SCG’s initial version of the air-operated direct selection version. Evidently, Leyland made little use of this, moving very quickly to the RV28, which was its own-built, somewhat strengthened version.

I am guessing here, but the strengthening might have been required to handle the torque of the O.680 engine. It could be assumed that the internals of the RV16 were essentially the same as had been using for the preceding preselector version. It is known that they AEC preselector gearbox could handle the torque of the AEC 9.6 engine, but not that of the 11.3. When the latter was added as an option for the Regal IV, the use of the then-new Monocontrol gearbox was mandatory, whereas it was an option for the 9.6. One assumes that AEC’s Monocontrol had strengthening similar to that of the Leyland RV28. (The Regal IV struck me as a sad case anyway. Auckland had a handful (9.6/preselector), soon relegated to the relatively flat, slow-moving waterfront routes. It seemed to be a vehicle that would have been ideal for routes that were downhill both ways, with ambient temperatures not departing too much from about 10°C.)

One aspect of the Royal Tiger OPSU1/AEC preselector installation that I think has not previously been mentioned is that this variant had its engine mounted further forward than normal in order to accommodate that gearbox in island-mounted form.

I haven’t found a diagram that shows this altered layout. However, from the available diagrams of the standard Royal Tiger chassis with synchromesh transmission, one may deduce that for all wheelbase variants (OPSU3, OPSU1 and OPSU2), the engine was mounted such that its rear face was about 80 inches from the centreline of the rear axle.
Royal Tiger LOPSU1.png


Of those models, the long-wheelbase OPSU2 alone, late in its production run, was offered with the option of the then-new Pneumocyclic gearbox. In this case the engine was mounted further forward.
Royal Tiger OPSU2 Pneumocyclic.png


We may estimate that the rear face of the engine was placed about 102 inches ahead of the centreline of the rear axle, or 22 inches ahead of its normal position, to allow sufficient space for an island-mounted Pneumocyclic gearbox. The front of the gearbox was in the same position, relative to the rear axle, as the front of the manual gearbox on the standard model. There would appear to be some chance that the 22-inch number was derived from that of the preselector variant of the OPSU1, for which the work in accommodating the Wilson gearbox had already been done.

At least based upon very limited photographic evidence and remembered first-hand visual evidence from looking under an Auckland preselector Royal Tiger, having the engine 22 inches forward would seem to be about right. That would have put the rear face of the engine 108 inches behind the centreline of the front axle not much different to the short wheelbase OPSU3, where that distance was 107 inches.

It is difficult to know whether Leyland had planned it this way from the start, or whether the forward engine position with the Wilson gearbox was a post facto modification to meet customer requirements. However, in the late 1940s Leyland could have predicted that Sydney at least would be calling for the Wilson gearbox. It may also be noted that the Tiger Cub PSUC1, which was designed when the Pneumocyclic gearbox was in the planning stages, had different engine positions for the constant mesh and Pneumocyclic versions, with the engine further forward in the latter case.

As an aside, it may be noted that the Pneumocyclic was quite late in the Wilson gearbox sequence. SCG had developed the internally direct air-operated version of its epicyclic gearbox in the larger railway sizes during the second half of the 1930s. (New Zealand Railways was an early user.) But application of the same technique in the smallest size for road vehicle (and railcar) applications took quite a bit longer. Internal oil pressure operation had become available by the later 1940s, if not earlier. (The initial road vehicle version of this was the RV7, the gearbox that London Transport wanted but which AEC refused to build.) I have never seen an explanation as to why the air-operated version took so long to appear, but one possibility is that it took some design effort to get adequate band-holding pressure with the air cylinder size that could be fitted within the confines of the gearbox. Air leakage past the cylinder seals meant that the Pneumocyclic was harder on its fluid (in oxidation terms) than the preselector. That was likely one reason why Leyland developed its “Specification E” fluid (modified turbine oil).

Back to the Royal Tiger, this model was followed by the Royal Tiger Worldmaster, which had the island-mounted Pneumocyclic gearbox as standard. The same engine and gearbox positioning relative to the rear axle was adopted for all wheelbase variants, RT3 (16’3”), ERT1 (18’0”) and ERT2 (20’0”). Thus it would have been relatively easy for Leyland to provide the 17’6” wheelbase special version of the ERT1 for Sydney (and presumptively for Brisbane).

The uniformity of the engine and gearbox placement of Worldmaster was not replicated with the Leopard family, though.

The original Leopard L (16’2” wheelbase) of 1959 was more-or-less a Tiger Cub with the O.600 engine, and sprung for 11 tons gvw. My best estimate is that the rear face of the engine was about 81 inches ahead of the rear axle. Whilst that was sufficient for a close-coupled synchromesh gearbox, it would have been insufficient for an island-mounted Pneumocyclic gearbox. The Pneumocyclic was never offered as an option on the L, nor as far as I know was it ever a special fitting. At the time, Leyland appeared to prefer the island-mounting for the Pneumocyclic, except where close-coupling was unavoidable, as on the Lion PSR1.
Leopard L1.png



Next in the Leopard family was the Royal Tiger Cub RTC1 in 1960. This was essentially the L stretched to 18’0” wheelbase for a 33 ft nominal body, with 10-stud wheels and sprung for 13 tons gvw. It retained the same relatively short front overhang of the L. The engine appears to have been mounted in the same position relative to the front axle as on the L, so the “stretch” was all behind the engine. The chassis diagram shows the rear face of the engine to have been 102.6 inches ahead of the rear axle centreline, leaving enough room for the optional island-mounted Pneumocyclic gearbox.
Royal Tiger Cub LRTC1-1.png


Significant change came with the Leopard PSU3 in 1961, designed to meet the then-new British C&U regulations for 36 ft buses, but also destined to be a significant export model. The wheelbase went to 18’6” (about as long as would still meet the UK turning circle requirements) and the front overhang was extended quite a bit. Chassis changes included deletion of the slight hump over the rear axle, and moving the engine sideways slightly to put the crankshaft on the chassis centreline, and not slightly offset to the right as had been the case for the Tiger Cub, Leopard L and Royal Tiger Cub RTC1. The engine was about six inches further forward, relative to the front axle, than it had been on the L and RTC1. This meant that the rear face of the engine was something like 115 inches ahead of the rear axle, leaving more than enough room for an island-mounted Pneumocyclic gearbox. Design gvw remained at 13 tons, although UK domestic market models were sprung for 11¼ tons.
Leopard PSU3.png


The next step in 1964 was twofold, development of the 17’6” wheelbase version of PSU3 for Brisbane, and of the 16’2” wheelbase PSU4 as the replacement for the L. Originally the latter was described as a “short PSU3”, developed at the request of CIE (Ireland) who wanted a the Pneumocyclic gearbox and a short companion to its regular PSU3 fleet.

The PSU3’s 115 inch spacing between the rear face of the engine and the rear axle would have allowed the subtraction of one foot from the wheelbase behind the gearbox without running out of room for the latter’s island mounting. I imagine that this is what was done for the Brisbane 17’6” wheelbase chassis, although I do not know for sure. However, the 1966-67 Wellington PSU3s, also of 17’6” wheelbase were allegedly based upon the Brisbane chassis, and these did have island-mounted gearboxes. My recollection of looking underneath one way back when was that the tailshaft was quite short.

But there would not have been enough room to subtract 22 inches from the wheelbase behind the gearbox for the “short PSU3” (PSU4). Thus of necessity, that was fitted with a close-coupled Pneumocyclic gearbox. By then, Leyland was using the close-coupled type in the Panther and Panther Cub, so may have been less averse to it than previously. Assumed is that the engine position relative to the front axle stayed the same as for the standard PSU3.

That brings us to the Sydney PSU3 Leopard fleet. The first tranche of 232 had close-coupled gearboxes, described as being PSU4-style. The question is, was the engine moved backwards to meet the gearbox, was the gearbox moved forward to meet the engine, or were both moved to “meet in the middle” as it were. Applying Occam’s Razor suggests that the simplest solution was that the engine and gearbox were in the PSU4 position relative to the rear axle, and that the initial Sydney PSU3 was basically a PSU4 with the wheelbase extended by 1’4” ahead of the engine. The balance of the Sydney Fleet had the island-mounted gearbox as far as I know.

The Perth PSU3, with the standard 18’6” wheelbase, was known to have had its engine moved backwards relative to the standard position for better weight balance. Again application of Occam’s Razor suggests that the PSU4 engine/gearbox assembly was used, in its customary position relative to the rear axle. That would have made the chassis effectively a PSU4 with a 2’4” wheelbase extension ahead of the engine. But it might well have been otherwise.


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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by Herbert »

Fantastic read RK215. I rarely visit this forum any more due to lack of such expertise content.

I vividly recall my confusion as I stood on William St Sydney in January 1989 listening to one of their Leopards moving away from a stop. It simply didn't make the right noises, but was rather to my "Perth ears" a Worldmaster! Some years later I stood watching at a local pool as a variety of buses left. There were 4 Leopards: an ex-GreenLine/Plaxton, an ex-Hamersley Iron/HowardPorter unit, an ex-Sydney one, then finally an ex-Perth one. The latter was the only one that made proper Leopard noises! Much later I would watch & listen to many youtube videos and the only recordings I could ever find that came near to sounding like a Perth Leopard were Bristol RELLs, except for their annoying transmission whine.

So - like my belated circa 1995 discovery that my beloved Panther 384 was actually the norm, not the odd-ball (racing out of my office in the firm conviction that it was 384 coming up the street only to be confounded by the appearance of an ugly ex-Brisbane bus) and that it were the 126 Perth units with their Swift-like rear-mounted radiators & angle fan drive (aka "death rattle") that were the weirdos - I had to adjust the paradigm to admit that Perth's Leopards were weirdos too.

Alas I cannot offer the required evidence about the chassis layout of Perth's Leopards. Curiously they are recorded as PSU3A/2R, same as Sydney's I believe, whereas they were clearly different and perhaps unique.

I can only offer up these photos. The first to demonstrate how far back was the radiator filler. The second is the closest to an underside view I've got. Third is the ultimate unit, one of 10 new with airbag suspension & Voith 2sp torque-converters which were subsequently re-equipped with Allison autos. The grilles give an indication of the engine & gearbox placement - suggesting close-coupled?

Image

Image

Image

BTW, especially as we are no doubt on the cusp of a new totally different (and boring) era in bus chassis, I feel it is paramount that not just physical & visual preservation of the past is required: we need to record for posterity the wonderful world of diesel engine music (and the accompanying orchestra of gearboxes, diffs & hubs) because to the next generation+1 it will be as remote an experience as steam locomotives were to me. At this stage one Perth Leopard is at the bus museum but its ownership not settled, with the threat from one quarter that its body is too similar to already preserved Panthers & a Hino to warrant saving. Agh! But what about the unique Perth Leopard music? One of those cherished sounds of my childhood. At quite a young age I even invented a word to describe their delightful "chunky" sound when observed in full flight: I'd say that they were "tonking" along. They have a very definite place in a young `erbert's obsession with diesel engines & are also the first breed of bus I ever experienced brand spanking new.
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by Herbert »

Oh, an anecdote about Regal IVs: I never rode either in service, but apparently the preselects were favoured over the monocontrols. My school bought a monocontrol one on my 12th birthday. Despite being a fantastic new experience with all those new noises to memorise, it was quite evidently a slug compared to a Worldmaster.

Perth's MTT acquired 13 preselect Regal IVs & purchased only 10 new. In my research into MTT history, it is evident that their Chief Engineer had taken a dislike to the Regal IVs. Whilst I cannot find any such concern mentioned by other operators, including those like Sydney & Adelaide with their much larger purchases of 9823Es, Mr Strick alleges steering defects. The following extracts from the MTT Board Minutes are relevant:

26 Nov 1959
Mr A D C Strick, the Trust`s Maintenance Engineer, was admitted to the meeting and discussed with Trust members the unsatisfactory aspect of the AEC Regal chassis. It was resolved that until the manufacturers, through their agents Flower Davies & Johnson, satisfactorily overcame the defects, no further orders for AEC chassis should be made.

Aug 1960
The matter of ordering new chassis was discussed and Mr Strick was admitted to the meeting. Mr Strick pointed out that he would not recommend the purchase of further AEC chassis as the difficulties with regard to steering had not been overcome. It was resolved that twenty new Leyland Worldmaster chassis be purchased.

18 Jan 1961
In view of the Engineer`s recommendation to the effect that it would be advisable to defer orders for AEC chassis until such time as the latest modifications had been proved, it was resolved that Messrs West End Motors be invited to submit a price for twenty (20) Leyland Worldmaster chassis for delivery after June 1961 to the specifications to be supplied by the Trust`s Engineer.

9 Mar 1961
The Chairman advised that a price had now been received from West End Motors for the supply of 20 Leyland Worldmaster chassis. He tabled a further submission from the Chief Engineer advising that AEC had now overcome the disabilities which were in evidence when the matter was originally discussed under the minute of the meeting of 18 January 1961. After detailed consideration of the Chief Engineer`s submission it was resolved that the matter of ordering further chassis be left in abeyance until Mr Adams had had the opportunity to make enquiries on his arrival in England.

23 Mar 1961
The minute of 9 March was further considered. Mr Adams stated that if the order was to be delayed until his arrival in England, it would mean we would be considerably behind in our program. The Chief Engineer, Mr Strick, was admitted to the meeting and gave his reasons why in his opinion AEC chassis, with certain non-standard equipment suggested by him, would be quite satisfactory. After full discussion on the matter, it was resolved to immediately place an order for twenty (20) Leyland Worldmaster chassis and ten (10) AEC Mark VI chassis and a provisional order for a further ten (10) AEC Mark VI chassis, such provisional order to be delivered after 30 June 1962 provided the original order is satisfactory.

In view of these (unfounded?) misgivings, I wonder if it were no accident that the first RHD Regal VI chassis, U2RA001, came to Perth.
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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by RK215 »

Thanks, Herbert.

I suspect that many of the Leyland bus chassis that came to Australia and New Zealand, the more so with the larger orders for city fleets, were non-standard in one way or another.

The Brisbane and Perth Panthers had an 18’0’” wheelbase, which although probably the modal number across all Panther production, was nominally non-standard. The original was 18’6”, with 17’6” subsequently made available. The latter traded wheelbase for additional front overhang within the same 36 ft nominal overall length.

That said, determining what was standard and what were regular production options is not so easy. It is evident that the product brochures and specification sheets seldom covered all of the options. Those for the Panther that I have seen mention only the Pneumocyclic transmission. But the 1964 February “Bus and Coach” journal article covering the announcement of the Panther included the following paragraph:

“The standard transmission is intended to be the electro-pneumatic Pneumocyclic gearbox driving a spiral-bevel rear axle. A two-speed axle is also being offered. Alternative transmissions include the Spicer, Allison and Voith-Diwabus torque converters. Leyland will also consider fitting the ZF Hydromedia automatic gearbox.”

Sometimes, the suffix “Special”, or “Spl” was appended to Leyland’s model designations to indicate some kind of variation, but not reliably so.

The TB&T 1967 July item on the Perth Leopards noted that the engine and transmission would be unit-mounted to obtain better weight distribution. It also noted that 10 of the 50 would have a torque converter transmission. Close-coupling might have better suited the standard Voith transmission anyway.

Nonetheless, it would be most interesting to compare the chassis diagrams for:

1. Baseline PSU3 Pneumocyclic
2. Brisbane PSU3
3. Sydney early PSU3 (close-coupled)
4. Sydney later PSU3
5. Perth PSU3
6. Baseline PSU4 Pneumocyclic.

Although Leyland might not have planned it that way, effectively there was an element of modularity to the Leopard PSU3/PSU4 range. The use of pressed steel chassis longitudinals was perhaps a limiting factor along the modular vector; with welded chassis it was probably easier to make length and component positioning adjustments.

Leyland Australia also offered a 19’6” wheelbase version of the PSU3, for 37 ft bodies. Possibly in this case the extra foot was added ahead of the engine.

Regarding the Regal IV, I have heard that it had a steering problem – some form of kickback as I recall, attributed to the basic geometry. The Regal VI would have fixed that – it was more in the nature of a beefed-up Reliance than a derivative of the Regal IV.

Returning to chassis diagrams, here is a set for the three standard Worldmaster variations:

Worldmaster Comparison.png

It looks as if the Pneumocyclic gearbox was set as far rearwards as reasonably possible on all variants, this in order to accommodate the powertrain within the shortest, 16’3”, wheelbase. The use of an underslung worm drive probably helped, in that the shaft entry was further rearwards than would have been the case for a spiral bevel drive axle.


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Re: Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

Post by Guy_Arab »

if you require manual i have one
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Post by Doc68 »

RK215 wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:31 am
On the other hand the early edition, as used on the Royal Tiger OPSU1, was evidently troublesome at times, as evidenced by the comment made in respect of Sydney 2520. Does anyone know if this originally had the air-assistance unit?
Sorry to be a bit slow to react Yes 2520 did have the air assist fitted & was disconnected by the DGT
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