WS Airport Metro

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

Merc1107 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:10 am
tonyp wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:33 am There will be little demand for travel between the two airports as they will both offer parallel national and international services.
Some years ago while organising a trip to the US, I found it was cheaper to travel via Japan than to fly direct from Australia. With at least one airline, a transfer in Tokyo was actually scheduled (by the airline itself, not some shady travel agent!) to involve going through Customs and making your own way between Narita and Haneda airports. Researching this online, I discovered this is quite a common occurrence for people transiting in Tokyo; although I didn't pursue the option. In hindsight, I wish I'd done it.

Whether the demand for transiting in Sydney is ever great enough for airlines to suggest such an arrangement, I don't know, but the example certainly goes to show it happens overseas (unsure if it is an isolated scenario - e.g. is the same done in Moscow or London?).
I don't think there have been any announcements from airlines as to what services they will operate from WSA.

When I travelled to Tokyo in the 1980-90s, NRT was purely international and HND was almost entirely domestic. Transfer between them involved either a direct shuttle bus or up to three rail sectors.

Some "experts" are predicting that WSA will be predominately domestic in the initial stages.
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Linto63
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

WSA may attract the odd budget international airline, but Mascot will remain the focal point for the big players. Jetstar, Qantas and Virgin will probably all fly services to most capital city destinations when WSA opens, but Mascot will have more, being preferred by the better off financially who live in the eastern half of the city and fly more.

WSA will be of more appeal to freight operators with its close proximity to freeways and warehouses.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

We can take note of doubters' comments when we revisit this page in ten years' time. Same with metro sceptics.
Linto63
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

Unless there is a huge demand from international tourists to hit the pokies at Panthers or the Rooty Hill RSL of which I am unaware, inbound passengers are not coming to Sydney to visit the Western suburbs. Hence the majors will stick to Mascot. Bit like London, while Luton and Stansted have become hubs for budget airlines like EasyJet and Ryanair, the big internationals continue to focus on Heathrow.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

While I agree that an airport closer to the city centre is more attractive to most tourists, ultimately price matters, as does the curfew.

Melbourne has a bunch of international flights departing after 10pm. Similar timings would work for Sydney West.

The airlines can invest the savings from better aircraft utilisation by making the fares slightly cheaper to attract pax.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

International traffic is only 1/3 of KSA's business. WSA will also attract all flights of any type outside KSA's curfew.
flitter
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by flitter »

I think we can expect Asian LCCs to jump in, Air Asia X, Scoot, Jetstar, anyone who can depart at 3am.

For a comparison look at Gatwick in the UK where the overnight traffic (to arrive first thing in the morning at destinations 4-7 hours away) is a good chunk of the volume.


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Linto63
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

Must confess I did overlook the curfew issue. Agree Asian low cost carries are likely users.
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

It will be great for passengers arriving at 2-3 AM to find few or no trains running.

I read a while back that some of the middle east airlines would take advantage of the no-curfew to enable better connections at their home ports.
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:21 pm It will be great for passengers arriving at 2-3 AM to find few or no trains running.

I read a while back that some of the middle east airlines would take advantage of the no-curfew to enable better connections at their home ports.
I would think that there would be some restructuring of services to support the airport. We'll have to wait and see if the metro will be 24 hours to meet nightride at St Marys, or else the proposed express buses will link with nightride buses at St Marys and Liverpool, or any other options.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:42 pm
boronia wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:21 pm It will be great for passengers arriving at 2-3 AM to find few or no trains running.

I read a while back that some of the middle east airlines would take advantage of the no-curfew to enable better connections at their home ports.
I would think that there would be some restructuring of services to support the airport. We'll have to wait and see if the metro will be 24 hours to meet nightride at St Marys, or else the proposed express buses will link with nightride buses at St Marys and Liverpool, or any other options.
Putting airport passengers on NightRide sounds horrific. There's barely any space on those buses as it is, the idea of putting people with baggage on those buses for a several hour trip into the city with all the other drunks and druggies on those buses is nightmare material - best way to scare travellers away from Sydney for good.

Hopefully if they want to cater to the late/early flight crowd, they decide to run the WSA metro and at least the NWRL all night long. That way people can travel between the airport, Epping, MQ, Chatswood, the City. Even if it's just 2tph, minimal staff, terminating at Sydenham - it would still be so much better than forcing people to crowd onto NightRide buses, plus it allows the buses running the N92 to be moved onto other NightRide services to up frequency.

Of course, I think the whole network should at least try to run 24/7 but if we're going to start somewhere, it's probably easiest to start with the metro.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by flitter »

Yeah I think it’s unlikely anyone flying in at 1am will want to get in public transport anyways - I certainly wouldn’t!

I expect that taxis and private transfer buses will take the slack like they used to at KS years back until the overnight volume gets high enough for a better solution.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

alleve wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:16 pm Putting airport passengers on NightRide sounds horrific. There's barely any space on those buses as it is, the idea of putting people with baggage on those buses for a several hour trip into the city with all the other drunks and druggies on those buses is nightmare material - best way to scare travellers away from Sydney for good.
So maybe they won't go for that option. We don't know what the decisions are yet. I have used nightride services commuting from airports in other cities, but if you think the Sydney clientele isn't up to scratch, yes, by all means look for another option. Unfortunately the St Marys-Tallawong link won't be available for some time yet. Maybe they'll run 24 hour trains on the Western Line.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:24 pm Unfortunately the St Marys-Tallawong link won't be available for some time yet. Maybe they'll run 24 hour trains on the Western Line.
Nobody will be using the WSA Metro for some time so it doesn't really matter, demand will not be there for a while. Presumably by the time that enough people are using the metro to warrant catering for them, the St Marys - Tallawong link will have been built already.

That being said, 24/7 service on the T1 (at least the Penrith bound half) as well as every other major line in Sydney (T2, T4, T8, T9) has the necessary demand already, NightRide is such a poor substitution for a rail service it's unbelievable.
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

There will be people working at WSA from day 1, as well near other stations on the line, who would benefit from the metro and its catchment area around St Marys. Probably a lot of locals going out there just for a look?
If WSA gets the same exemptions from local bus service operations as KSA, there may be a proliferation of door-to-door shuttles. As it is over 40 km between the two terminals, or WSA to CBD, there would be no restrictions on private direct shuttles.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by alleve »

boronia wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:14 pm There will be people working at WSA from day 1, as well near other stations on the line, who would benefit from the metro and its catchment area around St Marys. Probably a lot of locals going out there just for a look?
If WSA gets the same exemptions from local bus service operations as KSA, there may be a proliferation of door-to-door shuttles. As it is over 40 km between the two terminals, or WSA to CBD, there would be no restrictions on private direct shuttles.
Sure but the business park won't exist from day one, nor will all the traffic be there. The point I'm trying to make is that the demand for 24/7 service won't be there for quite some time.

Good point about the shuttles
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Qantas announces opening service plans.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ey-airport
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:50 pm Qantas announces opening service plans.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ey-airport
Closely followed by a dispute over landing & terminal access fees, no doubt :mrgreen:
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

Sydney Airport tunnelling under way

https://www.railexpress.com.au/sydney-a ... under-way/
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