WS Airport Metro

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Transtopic
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:09 pm
Transtopic wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:39 pm Thanks for that. Have you noticed any information about the progress of the actual construction of the airport stations and tunnels (not including Bradfield)?

I note the different platform lengths for the 2 lines at the Terminal and Business Park stations.
The TBMs are already underground. The station boxes for underground stations are being excavated. Here's Bradfield a month or so ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mlaZfMkQq8
I've seen that video of the Bradfield station box excavation and an update since. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this is only for the St Marys metro link.

You will recall that when the plans for the station designs were originally released, they didn't show the locations of the Metro West or SWRL station boxes which would be included as part of the design for those projects to be undertaken later. I was wondering whether a similar situation will apply in the case of the WSA station boxes, with only the St Marys link station box and rail alignment being constructed initially. That's certainly the case with the Business Park station. There's nothing that I've seen which suggests that any part of the future Metro West or SWRL alignments and stations are included in the current contracts. The TBMs are for the St Marys metro link.

If that is the case and in view of the Labor government's refusal to prepare business cases for the Metro West and Bankstown to Glenfield extensions, then it leaves open the option of extending the SWRL as part of the existing network to the WSA Terminal and Business Park stations. Of course, they could change their mind or be only a one or two term government. Time will tell.
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

Sydney Metro Connect app is now live!

Hello,

Sydney Metro has launched Sydney Metro Connect – a new way to stay informed.

Download the Sydney Metro Connect app onto your device to keep updated about current work and project milestones on Sydney Metro – Western Sydney Airport.

The app has many features, including an interactive map, construction alerts for your area and latest news.
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You can download Sydney Metro Connect on the App Store or get it on Google Play.
Download app from the App Store or Google Play

For more information, contact your local place manager on 1800 717 703.

Kind regards

The Project Communications Team
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Linto63
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

So much for a seamless journey to Western Sydney Airport.

Why Sydney will end up with three incompatible metro train lines (Sydney Morning Herald)
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boronia
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by boronia »

Is the limitation to 4 carriage trains wise in view of the suggested extension of the line south to Macarthur/Campbelltown.?
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

The Herald is slowly catching up in its "scoops". That news is about five years old and isn't news because metro systems typically have separated lines and even different rolling stock on each line. The whole point is to not get into the mess that integrated systems like our suburban system get into when something goes wrong on one line and becomes contagious. Don't see the point of the article other than the Herald's usual denigration of anything innovative or new.

This is a cross suburban line and isn't likely to have the patronage that the other two metro lines will have, for some time. Nevertheless, the station boxes are excavated for more than 8 cars length and no doubt expansion could happen in the future if needed. Even four cars provides plenty of capacity, considering that trains can run at 2 minute headways if required. That's about 22,500 passengers per hour per direction. That's close to the capacity of the present peak suburban service on the lower North Shore line, which has a capacity of 24,000 pphpd.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by alleve »

tonyp wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:50 am The Herald is slowly catching up in its "scoops". That news is about five years old and isn't news because metro systems typically have separated lines and even different rolling stock on each line.
Slow news day, they need something to get people riled up over
Linto63
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

So nothing has been learnt from having light rail systems that are not compatible or the folly of different rail gauges. Building a new line that is not compatible with an adjoining near new line is very tin pot.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:16 am So nothing has been learnt from having light rail systems that are not compatible or the folly of different rail gauges. Building a new line that is not compatible with an adjoining near new line is very tin pot.
Perfectly normal in metro systems around the world when lines are not co-running. The Paris tramways are separated lines, sometimes with different vehicles. There's no hard and fast "rule" about this. Each system is tailored to its city. The Sydney metro lines are never going to be blended. We've learnt that painful lesson on the suburban system.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

Yes it is quite normal where lines operate totally independently, with each having its own stock that only ever operates that line, but through routes don't just get split in two when the mode type is the same. Would be a bit like if the South West Rail Link had been electrified to a different voltage to the rest of the Sydney Trains network forcing a change at Glenfield.

Not as if 25 kv AC is new technology that has only appeared in the last decade, Brisbane electrified with it in the 1970s, so the decision should have been made to go one way or the other throughout.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:00 pm Yes it is quite normal where lines operate totally independently, with each having its own stock that only ever operates that line, but through routes don't just get split in two when the mode type is the same. Would be a bit like if the South West Rail Link had been electrified to a different voltage to the rest of the Sydney Trains network forcing a change at Glenfield.

Not as if 25 kv AC is new technology that has only appeared in the last decade, Brisbane electrified with it in the 1970s, so the decision should have been made to go one way or the other throughout.
As you know, the DC was kept on the first line because it incorporates two long sections of already electrified lines. It was probably a toss of the coin decision, but it's obviously not disadvantaging the operation being DC. The change at Schofields was always on the books from the original metro planning. The reason was not to change voltage or split contracts, but I think they were being conservative about having a single route running too far.

I'm not too sure about this myself. It will be about 70 km Schofields to Bankstown. If an extension to Liverpool from Bankstown was added, a bit under 80 km. Adding more than 50 km Schofields to Macarthur to that would take it to over 130 km. Though long, that's not unprecedented as the Perth north-south line is a single operation over 110 km, soon to be extended to over 120 km. Either way, it's water under the bridge now and the intention is to make interchange at Schofields as easy as possible.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:08 am Is the limitation to 4 carriage trains wise in view of the suggested extension of the line south to Macarthur/Campbelltown.?
I have raised this question previously about the WSA metro extension from Bradfield to Macarthur/Campbelltown.

Under previous planning for the extension of the SWRL from Leppington and after extensive community consultation, it was proposed to branch the line around Bringelly to St Marys in the north and Narellan in the south which could be extended further. The branch to Narellan would provide a direct rail link with the CBD via Glenfield using the existing 8 car DD trains, which would be needed for the growing patronage from the developing South West Growth Region. Pre-Covid patronage at Edmondson Park and Leppington bears testimony to that with the building of the huge carparks to cater for passengers driving from further within the growth centre as it develops. If the SWRL were to be extended, with one branch to Bradfield/Airport Terminal and the other to Narellan, with the option of a further extension, it would be a far better outcome for the broader rail network. A Y link could be constructed between the southern and northern branches to give access to Bradfield and the Airport stations.

The Sydney CBD will remain the dominant destination for rail passengers from all over Sydney, so why should the South West Region be any different? There will no doubt be more cross regional travel to centres like Bradfield, Parramatta, Rhodes, Macquarie Park etc, but Sydney will maintain its primacy. Only a fraction of passengers from the South West will travel by train to Bradfield and the airport, let alone further north, with the greater travel demand to the east. 3/4 car metro trains on the southern extension, with interchange required at Bradfield to reach the CBD, won't cut it. The WSA metro should terminate at Bradfield as currently proposed and the SWRL extended at part of the Sydney Trains' network to Narellan and ultimately Macarthur, with a short branch and Y link to Bradfield, the Airport Terminal and Business Park. There's no guarantee that the Metro West extension from Westmead will ever be built, with the new Labor government not appearing to support it.

In the North West, the greatest travel demand is to the east towards the CBD, which is why the existing Metro Northwest should be extended from Tallawong to Marsden Park and not just Schofields. They wouldn't be building the expensive CBD metro extension from Chatswood if it wasn't. This had been the original plan for the North West Rail Link. Marsden Park would then become the interchange station with the WSA metro extension from St Marys. This would enable Marsden Park passengers to have a direct trip towards the CBD without having to interchange at Schofields.

Unfortunately, this isn't ideal from a network perspective and is an example of the consequence of having incompatible systems which interconnect directly. It's too late now, but Metro Northwest should have been extended through to St Marys and Bradfield as a continuous line with full length trains.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

City of Sydney is proportionally diminishing over time as an employment centre as other centres grow. It accounts for only a minority of the Greater Sydney workforce. Parramatta is now the population centre of Sydney and the sheer size of the population of greater western Sydney (about 2.5 million), together with greater availability and lower cost of commercial space relentlessly pulls jobs and other activities westwards. Loader's figures are a few years old, but clearly indicate the trend which is only accelerating:

https://chartingtransport.com/2018/07/0 ... an-cities/

The metro grid focussed on western Sydney is an investment in this change. Radial lines focussed on the City of Sydney are already there and don't require further investment. It's important now to reduce car dependency in the west, connect the SW with the NW and connect all to Parramatta.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Further explanation from the Minister and Metro CEO Regan - after the 8 minute mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUev4LJDDLo

The optics of having Peter Regan at the Central opening and not somebody from Sydney Trains suggest a story. It seems that Haylen, having been fully briefed since being elected, is fully on board with the metro. Good that it's now clearly bipartisan.

Edit: I have the impression that the WSA metro trains are going to have luggage racks and are possibly wider, that's why we won't have NW metro trains running through. Specifically designed for airport service.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: The optics of having Peter Regan at the Central opening and not somebody from Sydney Trains suggest a story.
It was a Sydney Metro project, so of course its CEO is going to appear in preference to Regan's Sydney Trains equivalent.
tonyp wrote: It seems that Haylen, having been fully briefed since being elected, is fully on board with the metro. Good that it's now clearly bipartisan.
Or alternatively now that Haylen is the minister whose name is going to appear on the opening plaque, the time for being negative about a project that will be completed on her watch has passed. No sign that Labor has moved from its election manifesto, only committing to fund business case studies for two lines vs the Liberals four.
tonyp wrote: I have the impression that the WSA metro trains are going to have luggage racks and are possibly wider, that's why we won't have NW metro trains running through. Specifically designed for airport service.
Trains will be 30 centimetres wider, although one has to wonder why the need, given that passengers will have to complete their journeys on narrower stock with relatively few leaving the network at St Marys or eventually Schofields.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:45 am City of Sydney is proportionally diminishing over time as an employment centre as other centres grow. It accounts for only a minority of the Greater Sydney workforce. Parramatta is now the population centre of Sydney and the sheer size of the population of greater western Sydney (about 2.5 million), together with greater availability and lower cost of commercial space relentlessly pulls jobs and other activities westwards. Loader's figures are a few years old, but clearly indicate the trend which is only accelerating:

https://chartingtransport.com/2018/07/0 ... an-cities/

The metro grid focussed on western Sydney is an investment in this change. Radial lines focussed on the City of Sydney are already there and don't require further investment. It's important now to reduce car dependency in the west, connect the SW with the NW and connect all to Parramatta.
Now let's put things into perspective. According to the Greater Cities Commission, Central Sydney including its immediate environs had a workforce of 500,000 pre-Covid. That doesn't include the significant number of people visiting tourist, educational, health, entertainment and cultural facilities. Greater Parramatta had a workforce of 80,000 and from other data, Macquarie Park/North Ryde had a similar number. Bradfield and the WSA precinct are yet to get off the ground. These will be the largest strategic centres.

It will take a long time, if ever, for the combined workforce of these strategic centres to come anywhere near Central Sydney's, which will remain the largest single concentration of employment in the metropolitan region for decades to come. There is a much larger diverse lower density workforce across the region, which will continue to rely on private car transport.

While the proportion of Central Sydney's workforce relative to the greater metropolitan area will diminish, it is predicted that it will also continue to grow, which will require additional rail capacity. Travel to Central Sydney on a typical weekday is 75% by public transport which is far greater than any other major employment centre by a wide margin, where the major transport mode is by car. On a city wide basis, it's the reverse with public transport usage at 25%, although it is expected that the share of public transport to the major centres with concentrated employment will grow as they develop.
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

City of Sydney is receiving enormous additional rail capacity courtesy of the metro project. Eastern Sydney as a whole is prolifically endowed with public transport. It's now western Sydney's turn for investment in public transport.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

It's also not like CoS is static in terms of office space, as buildings continually get replaced with taller versions and new areas like Barrangaroo and the Central precinct take shape
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:22 pm Trains will be 30 centimetres wider, although one has to wonder why the need, given that passengers will have to complete their journeys on narrower stock with relatively few leaving the network at St Marys or eventually Schofields.
There is inevitably some transfer involved in an airport journey because everybody is not coming from the same place. The important thing is that the transfer is comfortable for somebody with luggage. The quality of connections with the WSA line varies. At Schofields the interchange is with another metro line, so there's no issue there. Likewise the West Metro will eventually extend to WSA, so that will be a good link for somebody with luggage to Parranatta and Sydney. Single deck long distance regional trains will also provide comfortable connections with regions at Macarthur and (hopefully) St Marys. Even accessible buses should be OK for limited numbers of passengers, provided that the interface between metro stations and bus stops is fully accessible.

The fly in the ointment is going to be double deck trains, which are hopeless for somebody with luggage, as can be experienced daily at Sydney Airport. So the double deck connections at St Marys to Blue Mountains and Parramatta/Sydney are going to be wanting in quality. This will have to await relief by the West Metro being extended to WSA. Blue Mountains commuters will discover how poorly designed the NIFs are for large luggage. Hopefully the Leppington line won't be extended to WSA as a double deck line and repeat the mistakes of the Sydney Airport line.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:16 am City of Sydney is receiving enormous additional rail capacity courtesy of the metro project. Eastern Sydney as a whole is prolifically endowed with public transport. It's now western Sydney's turn for investment in public transport.
The point I was making was that Central Sydney will continue to grow, as will the diversification to other strategic centres, but it will remain the single largest concentration of employment and other attractions and the hub for the rail network. The metro will only have a marginal impact on the shortcomings of the existing network, which will still require further upgrading to enable it to operate efficiently and reliably.

This will include the need for an adequate rail connection from the South West Growth Region to the CBD, which should be an extension of the existing SWRL from Leppington and diversion to the CBD via the more direct and faster East Hills Line after the upgrades. The greater travel demand will be to the east and not Bradfield and the WSA, just as it is from the North West Growth Region. A connection can also be made to WSA from the south-west. A 4 car metro train won't be enough to meet this demand, which would still require interchange to reach the CBD and other eastern destinations.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:16 pm There is inevitably some transfer involved in an airport journey because everybody is not coming from the same place. The important thing is that the transfer is comfortable for somebody with luggage. The quality of connections with the WSA line varies. At Schofields the interchange is with another metro line, so there's no issue there. Likewise the West Metro will eventually extend to WSA, so that will be a good link for somebody with luggage to Parranatta and Sydney. Single deck long distance regional trains will also provide comfortable connections with regions at Macarthur and (hopefully) St Marys. Even accessible buses should be OK for limited numbers of passengers, provided that the interface between metro stations and bus stops is fully accessible.

The fly in the ointment is going to be double deck trains, which are hopeless for somebody with luggage, as can be experienced daily at Sydney Airport. So the double deck connections at St Marys to Blue Mountains and Parramatta/Sydney are going to be wanting in quality. This will have to await relief by the West Metro being extended to WSA. Blue Mountains commuters will discover how poorly designed the NIFs are for large luggage. Hopefully the Leppington line won't be extended to WSA as a double deck line and repeat the mistakes of the Sydney Airport line.
There is no guarantee that Metro West will ever be extended to WSA and Bradfield, or the SWRL and its extension converted to metro, especially if Labor remains in power for a while. Even rail planners within the transport bureaucracy had questioned the cost/benefit of the Metro West extension.

If the SWRL is extended to WSA as part of the existing network, there's nothing to stop a dedicated and compatible SD Airport Express service being introduced via the East Hills Line to Sydney Terminal when the passenger demand warrants it.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

There will be little demand for travel between the two airports as they will both offer parallel national and international services. The need for links from WSA is to western Sydney destinations plus a link to City of Sydney via Parramatta.

A 4 car metro train will have a potential capacity of about 22,500 pphpd, almost as much as the present peak capacity on lower north shore and ESR.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:33 am There will be little demand for travel between the two airports as they will both offer parallel national and international services.
Some years ago while organising a trip to the US, I found it was cheaper to travel via Japan than to fly direct from Australia. With at least one airline, a transfer in Tokyo was actually scheduled (by the airline itself, not some shady travel agent!) to involve going through Customs and making your own way between Narita and Haneda airports. Researching this online, I discovered this is quite a common occurrence for people transiting in Tokyo; although I didn't pursue the option. In hindsight, I wish I'd done it.

Whether the demand for transiting in Sydney is ever great enough for airlines to suggest such an arrangement, I don't know, but the example certainly goes to show it happens overseas (unsure if it is an isolated scenario - e.g. is the same done in Moscow or London?).
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Geo101 »

It's probably/possibly time to read into how (the Melbourne) Avalon Airport has evolved over time, and I'm by no way saying that they are even remotely similar in long-term urban planning, but it is purely a matter now that things are in place, whether or not the beast will succeed.

I hope and wish the best for WSA, but I suspect that after the initial build and commissioning, it will be left to commercial and "market forces" to see if it ever "takes off" so to speak.

There have been many years of the vision, and a lot of funding (finally) arrived, but it is a wild bet to think that it's a sure bet?

Tomorrow at Avalon there are 6 arrivals and 5 departures.

https://avalonairport.com.au/flights/flight-schedule/

The first scheduled passenger flights out of the airport were operated by Hazelton Airlines, who commenced flights between Avalon Airport and Sydney in February 1995

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon_Airport

By my simplistic calculation, that's just under 3 decades of operation, and not a lot of turnover?
tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Unkike Avalon, which is in the middle of nowhere, there is a city the size of Brisbane or Perth surrounding WSA and another city a similar size surrounding KSA. For the western of these cities, KSA is very inconvenient compared to WSA, just as WSA won't be so convenient for people in the eastern city. There has been much interest from airlines in WSA.
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