Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Would a gold Opal daily cap raise be a nightmare for whatever party it happens under
Won't be happening
Passenger 57
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

boxythingy wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:40 pm What's even clearer is that there are very noticeable "peak weekdays" and "off-peak weekdays".

The vast majority of employers seem to think theoretical super spreaders won't happen on Monday morning peak hours, and everyone's social distancing by WFH on Fridays :roll:
Seems a logical extension for what was always POETS (P*** Off Early Tomorrow's Saturday) day.
By extending the morning peak hour by 1 hour, it's impossible to stagger start times, because if some were to delay travel until after 10:00AM, they'd be arriving into work by lunch time :roll: :roll:
Don't forget that up until that time the morning peak from Intercity stations ran from 6-8am in contrast to the 7-9 peak for Sydney metro.

As for the Herald article if Business NSW want more fare free days or a free fare zone they can pay for it themselves since they'll be the ones to benefit. Does having to pay for travel in the city result in people spending less money? Seems a doubtful proposition but some sort of combined venue city transport pass might be worth considering. I don't think saving money is the main reason most people avoid going to the office its just an added bonus. Many people would be entitled to free travel on Friday anyway.

It's not such a bad thing if less people come into the city unless you have a business that depends on that. Poor landlords. People will still find ways to spend their money.

Otherwise, I'm all in favour of matching the peak time definitions to the actual demand. I'd like the charging to depend on the actual flow in that direction and have station surcharging if overcrowding in particular stations also needs to be reduced. I think an peak shoulder period with a smaller off-peak discount would make sense as well.
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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Passenger 57 wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:26 pm
Otherwise, I'm all in favour of matching the peak time definitions to the actual demand. I'd like the charging to depend on the actual flow in that direction and have station surcharging if overcrowding in particular stations also needs to be reduced. I think an peak shoulder period with a smaller off-peak discount would make sense as well.
I've often thought that it was iniquitous that someone catching a train from, say, Penrith at at 9.50 could pay peak fare, but someone getting the same train from , say, Blacktown at 10.05 paid off peak. Perhaps peak fare should be based on theoretical arrival times of the fastest services on each line at Central.
This could eliminate the inequity of travelling in the contra-peak direction in a near empty train.
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Passenger 57
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

One difficulty is that there can be high demand in some route segments that are contra-flows to the main city morning inbound/afternoon outbound flows. Ideally you want a simple policy.
Last edited by Passenger 57 on Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
moa999
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »

Fairness unfortunately often gets lost against the KISS principle.

Compare Sydney's bus fare table to Singapore's.

https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/dam/ltag ... -table.pdf

Singapore is obviously fairer as it only costs a few extra cents if you fall either side of a cutoff, but simple it is not.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Interesting that Opal fares haven’t featured on either major parties election campaign.

Thus, I would suspect the $50 weekly cap (as in price) won’t last much longer regardless of who wins next weeks election
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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

moa999 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:25 pm Fairness unfortunately often gets lost against the KISS principle.

Compare Sydney's bus fare table to Singapore's.

https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/dam/ltag ... -table.pdf

Singapore is obviously fairer as it only costs a few extra cents if you fall either side of a cutoff, but simple it is not.
When I last visited Singapore about 10 years ago, fares were calculated on section/stage basis. But bus stops were well spaced, so just about each stop represented a section point.
I wonder if these new distance based fares are route km's or spacial distances. Singapore has quite a few meandering routes like Sydney where there can large variations in the two distance methods.
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Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Interesting that Opal fares haven’t featured on either major parties election campaign.
Liberals committing to drop the weekly cap from $50 to $40.

Perrottet's re-eclection promises to cut Opal travel cap
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

boronia wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:12 am I've often thought that it was iniquitous that someone catching a train from, say, Penrith at at 9.50 could pay peak fare, but someone getting the same train from , say, Blacktown at 10.05 paid off peak. Perhaps peak fare should be based on theoretical arrival times of the fastest services on each line at Central.
This could eliminate the inequity of travelling in the contra-peak direction in a near empty train.
Back when magstripe tickets were the go for trains, the ticket machines from memory at suburban stations (and country ones) were set to tick over to off-peak fares earlier than the normal 9am by several minutes to account for this (for intercity stations there used to be a table that showed what trains counted as peak given the gaps between services).

I recall Hurstville being my local station then and the queue just before 8:50am which was the time it ticked over - and even the ticket office attendant kept checking while people waited for off-peak tickets to be sold from 8:50am.
What didn't help was that back then there was an intercity train to Sydney Terminal (express) that arrived at 8:51am, but the next train after was a limited stops [and 6 cars!] train to Bondi Junction at 9:03am, so there was always a mad rush of people buying off peak tickets and wanting to get that express.

Mind you, Adelaide applies peak fares all day on a Saturday for some reason which I've never understood - hopefully we don't go down that same path.
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boxythingy
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:10 pm
Jurassic_Joke wrote: Interesting that Opal fares haven’t featured on either major parties election campaign.
Liberals committing to drop the weekly cap from $50 to $40.

Perrottet's re-eclection promises to cut Opal travel cap
for just for 1 out of 5 years
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I stand corrected then.

Are we sure it’s only for one year? Doesn’t seem too worthwhile then.

As for the Libs re-election chances it might not be enough to save them at marginal seats in Sydney’s west as unlike 2019, nowadays post pandemic, many people WFH 2 or 3 days a week. They’re already saving cash
Passenger 57
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

boronia wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:25 pm I wonder if these new distance based fares are route km's or spacial distances.
Route distance apparently. Try the fare calculator if you know your way around Singapore. I thought rail fares were based on the distance of the route with the quickest travel time but that appears to have either changed or I was mistaken in the first place.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

boxythingy wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 10:41 pm for just for 1 out of 5 years
Crikey what a joke, speaks nothing more of than an election promise dribble just to score potential votes, however I know this will end one of two ways;

Either it does happen but get's scrapped sooner than you think, some wish washy excuse of how it is now costing the state millions & they'll need to increase the cap again.... or

The classic election move. Liberals win & completely absolutely do nothing about it as it was only an election promise, thanks for voting us back in & enjoy your still $50 opal cap.

I on the other hand don't know what ALP's major policies are including anything to do with Public Transport & being Mr "outside of Sydney" here I doubt myself as is many other people here in my region is too much on any politicians radar anyway to benefit from anything which doesn't leave myself with ideas nor confidence who to vote for.
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Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Is anybody else finding the Opal card system on buses simply appalling? Historically I haven't bothered making claims for the odd error here and there. But it is now getting to plague proportions. I have had to make 6 claims already this month for being overcharged. Whether it is Cubic or the operators who are responsible, I'm not sure, but clearly it is not being maintained very well. One bus today had only 1 out of 6 readers operating, effectively turning an artic into a front door only bus.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 6:31 pm Is anybody else finding the Opal card system on buses simply appalling? Historically I haven't bothered making claims for the odd error here and there. But it is now getting to plague proportions. I have had to make 6 claims already this month for being overcharged. Whether it is Cubic or the operators who are responsible, I'm not sure, but clearly it is not being maintained very well. One bus today had only 1 out of 6 readers operating, effectively turning an artic into a front door only bus.
When transit officers do checks on interline buses in Liverpool I’ve noticed that one officer gets on looks at the status of the readers if the activity light is orange and the screen says ready then the officer gets one of his or her colleague to assists him or her with doing a valid card check
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

The reliability of some of the readers and possibly driver consoles hasn't exactly been stellar of late.
Every so often I see people struggle when tapping on/off with a mobile device (and occasionally even the plastic bank debit/credit card) - I guess the hardware was able to do it with a software upgrade at the time, but doesn't mean it's going to do it well?

Seem to recall the odd whisper about Transport for NSW looking at a hardware upgrade (already!) of the readers, which wouldn't go down too well in some sectors if that is actually the case (though if it means more reliable/faster tap on/off actions might be worth it, given how often I see a bus being held up while somebody struggles with their phone).

It's one reason I haven't used my Opal+ digital card recently (that, and it works out more expensive for the trips I'm taking at the moment).
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

pgt wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:37 pm Seem to recall the odd whisper about Transport for NSW looking at a hardware upgrade (already!) of the readers, which wouldn't go down too well in some sectors if that is actually the case (though if it means more reliable/faster tap on/off actions might be worth it, given how often I see a bus being held up while somebody struggles with their phone).
Does TfNSW organise and pay for the upgrades associated with new technology being rolled out, or is the arrangement different?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by flitter »

pgt wrote: Transport for NSW looking at a hardware upgrade (already!)
Given that the last paper tickets we’re withdrawn in 2016 it would seem that replacing 10 and more year old hardware wouldn’t be unreasonable I would’ve thought.


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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

flitter wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:30 pm Given that the last paper tickets we’re withdrawn in 2016 it would seem that replacing 10 and more year old hardware wouldn’t be unreasonable I would’ve thought.
Given it they're powered on at least as much as the bus (if not 24/7 for buses out a lot, or those parked up to phone home), and the equipment would seem to be the bare-necessity to run whatever software is utilised, a replacement at this age would probably be appropriate.

The amount of extra data being transmitted to properly handle credit/debit payments on top of the existing and digitalised Opal methods would probably be in excess of what the software and equipment were supposed to deal with. Between that, the age and computing power (or lack thereof) of the equipment, it could go a long way to explaining worsening reliability.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by alleve »

I notice that the reliability of the opal readers depends on where you are, too. Even within Central station, some entrances are noticeably more reliable than others. I also tend to experience the most amount of Opal issues in region 9 as opposed to anywhere else. Might be related to how old the specific readers are?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:45 pm
The amount of extra data being transmitted to properly handle credit/debit payments on top of the existing and digitalised Opal methods would probably be in excess of what the software and equipment were supposed to deal with. Between that, the age and computing power (or lack thereof) of the equipment, it could go a long way to explaining worsening reliability.
Electronics are just as, if not more, problematic as mechanical things, despite no moving parts IE solid state. Yet we insist on integrating them into more of our manufactured goods. Maybe we need to draw on more technical know how from outer space 😉.
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matthewg
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

pgt wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:37 pm The reliability of some of the readers and possibly driver consoles hasn't exactly been stellar of late.
Every so often I see people struggle when tapping on/off with a mobile device (
That will be more crappy NFC implementations on phones built to a price point. Also it's not obvious on may phones where the sweet spot is for NFC comms.
On my own Android phone, I don't usually unlock it as low-value transactions don't need an unlock, but I think there is a counter on them and for every X transaction the device needs to be unlocked. But it's not clear to me what 'X' is until I get a card-invalid error and it works on retry after I unlock the phone. But that pause while I mess with the phone causes a queue stall at the barrier.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

matthewg wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 1:46 pm
pgt wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 9:37 pm The reliability of some of the readers and possibly driver consoles hasn't exactly been stellar of late.
Every so often I see people struggle when tapping on/off with a mobile device (
That will be more crappy NFC implementations on phones built to a price point. Also it's not obvious on may phones where the sweet spot is for NFC comms.
On my own Android phone, I don't usually unlock it as low-value transactions don't need an unlock, but I think there is a counter on them and for every X transaction the device needs to be unlocked. But it's not clear to me what 'X' is until I get a card-invalid error and it works on retry after I unlock the phone. But that pause while I mess with the phone causes a queue stall at the barrier.
I've seen it on cheap and flagship phones - I have a flagship Android device myself and at one stage it struggled when trying to use the Opal+ digital card [until I restarted the phone], both on a bus and at a light rail station in the city.
Have seen people with Apple devices struggle too at times, and even the plastic card fails to read at times which I saw this morning happen to a lady getting off the bus - reader eventually errored out the card read, and she was able to tap off a moment after.

So to me, it says the reader is in part to blame too (though unless a hardware defect/issue/limitation either could be fixed with a firmware upgrade).
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by flitter »

Transit mode on the readers has to be a must for the next gen, I used that in Washington DC last year and it was more responsive and easier to use. You could even buy the transit pass direct from a phone wallet and have it active immediately. Got around all of the EFTPOS based limitations of the system in Sydney.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

flitter wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 9:11 pm Transit mode on the readers has to be a must for the next gen, I used that in Washington DC last year and it was more responsive and easier to use. You could even buy the transit pass direct from a phone wallet and have it active immediately. Got around all of the EFTPOS based limitations of the system in Sydney.
That works with payment cards too - try it in New York or up in Brisbane.

Select your preferred Amex, Mastercard or Visa (including Opal+) - hold iPhone or Apple Watch near the reader and it'll automatically tap that card.
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