Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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Linto63
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by Linto63 »

Ballarat.?Geelong etc are to Melbourne what Gosford, Wollongong etc are to Sydney or the Sunshine Coast is to Brisbane, so all need to be included or excluded for s meaningful comparison.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by MAN 16.242 »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:08 am Ballarat.?Geelong etc are to Melbourne what Gosford, Wollongong etc are to Sydney or the Sunshine Coast is to Brisbane, so all need to be included or excluded for s meaningful comparison.
If adding all services within 150-170km from Melbourne then the figure goes from 2300 to about 2700
If including these sort of places then train wise I assume Tonyp also include V/Line train fleet?
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by Fleet Lists »

That is where it can get confusing. In NSW it is easily split between Interurban and regional trains but I dont think such a split is available in Victoria.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by tonyp »

MAN 16.242 wrote: If adding all services within 150-170km from Melbourne then the figure goes from 2300 to about 2700
If including these sort of places then train wise I assume Tonyp also include V/Line train fleet?
Yes, I haven't looked at the figure for the proportion of the V Line fleet allocated to these services, so any information would be appreciated.
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Linto63
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by Linto63 »

While not possible to put an exact percentage on it, those services within the MyKi zone, (up to 150km from Melbourne) account for the vast majority of V/Line's daily mileage all having at least hourly frequencies. Beyond these points services per day to Bairnsdale, Albury, Ararat, Echuca, Swan Hill and Warrnambool are in single digits. Finger in the air calculation would be 70 to 80% of V/Line's fleet would be accounted for by services within the Myki zone.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by 1whoknows »

There's no differential between metro and outer metro in terms of contracts or anything. Werribee area and Bacchus Marsh is the end of the west, the south includes the Mornington Peninsula routes, the east ends at Pakenham, the Dandenongs and Warburton/ Healesville with the daily service to Eildon as an oddity. The north is becoming a little fuzzy as it expands further and is almost merging into existing country services at Wallan and beyond Sunbury. Dysons Whittlesea run used to be a borderline country service done by a semi coach up to the early 90s but is now part of the urban bus network.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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Sydney has national parks to the north and south and the Blue Mountains to the west that provide definitive borders whereas Melbourne doesn't hence why it can continue expanding outwards, hence why it is on target to become Australia's largest city within the next 10 years.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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As this discussion has progressed, I've been amending my original post, up to today. It's obvious that, for trains and buses in the largest (greater) cities in particular, it's a mud map that gives an idea of proportional sizes rather than an accurate count. So figures tend to be rounded off or "+" added to indicate there are likely more, of which I'm certain there are (e.g. Logan City, Hornibrook and others in Brisbane). Trying to separate route buses from charter/school buses in many of those fleets is next to impossible. The smaller cities are less challenging. For my own purposes I find even these broad figures useful. I'm sure there would be detailed fleet statistics kept in individual agencies.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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tonyp wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:27 am Trying to separate route buses from charter/school buses in many of those fleets is next to impossible. The smaller cities are less challenging. For my own purposes I find even these broad figures useful. I'm sure there would be detailed fleet statistics kept in individual agencies.
Enthusiasts fond of keeping lists/records of fleets would probably have fairly accurate information on operators that interest them. Perhaps no one has ever contributed the breakdown of charter vs revenue service vehicles to the Bus Australia Fleetlists?
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by 1whoknows »

Thats not too hard to work out. In Melbourne, generally speaking for contracted route operators, if its a low floor its a route bus (except for those operators with rail fleets) and if its a coach its a school bus/ charter bus. Brisbane is much the same as is Darwin. In Adelaide the contracted operators would all count as route buses, same in Perth except for a small number of orange school buses with Path. Action/ TC in Canberra and Metro in Tas are all route and with Redline and Merseylink (both now Kinetic) you again look at the low floors plus ( I think) a couple of high floors still in the Devonport fleet as spares. Sydney is complicated by the fact that, despite all rumours to the contrary by a few twits, some high floors will remain in route service in several fleets during at least half of 2023. This is mainly due to Sydney lagging behind by several years in mandating low floors back in the second half of the 1990s. Even Hobart, which was behind the rest for so long, has overtaken our third world city.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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1whoknows wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:40 pm if its a low floor its a route bus (except for those operators with rail fleets) and if its a coach its a school bus/ charter bus. Brisbane is much the same as is Darwin.
I would contest that point on Darwin (although it is splitting hairs), as the fleet of MAN low-entry buses used by CDC (previously Buslink) are configured to maximise carrying capacity of wheelchairs, and are used for special needs services, rather than charter or route service.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by Linto63 »

1whoknows wrote: This is mainly due to Sydney lagging behind by several years in mandating low floors back in the second half of the 1990s.
The problem has been caused by more recent actions, namely the government mandating that no more diesel buses be ordered,meaning some operators haven't received any new buses for some years. But there are probably all of a couple of dozen non-compliant buses left, so not the greatest of problems.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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But what does that matter - I did not think that the question stated that only compliant buses were to be counted.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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If an incorrect statement is made, it should be corrected. Also a bit simplistic that all low floor buses can be deemed route service buses as some remain in service but are not used on route services. But fairly immaterial in the grand scheme.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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I've stayed away from capacity in this analysis because that's an entire other subject on its own. The train consists in various cities listed here vary in size from about 50 metres to 160 metres, the latter applying universally to the Sydney fleet and the HCMT in Melbourne. Thus there are considerable differences in carrying capacity per train. Ferries vary in size from small ships to small cats.

Although the dominant vehicle in the street public transport context is the ubiquitous 12.5 metre rigid bus, there is a growing trend towards higher capacity street transit vehicles as population and patronage grow and this can be seen in the additional figures for high capacity vehicles (or consists) included within each total below. Note the capacity overlap between trams and buses, as the high-capacity artic or double deck bus does basically the same job as a 15 metre rigid tram (or as a 24 metre tram in the case of the new Brisbane double-artic bus). The trend towards longer trams is a result of moving ahead of the greater capability that has emerged for buses in recent decades, so trams now aim for even greater capacity.

Trams

Melbourne 510 (126x30 metre, 204x24 metre, 180x15 metre)
Greater Sydney (including Newcastle) 48 (30x60 metre, 18x30 metre)
Adelaide 24 (24x30 metre)
Greater Brisbane (Gold Coast) 18 (18x45 metre)
Canberra 14 (14x30 metre)

Buses

Greater Sydney 5,500 (350 artics and double deck)
Greater Melbourne 2,700 (40 artics*)
Greater Brisbane 1,750+ (70 artics)
Perth 1,692 (137 artics)
Adelaide 1,034 (185 artics and double deck)
Canberra 460 (44 artics)
Hobart 167 (15 artics)
Darwin 79

(* The 180x15 metre trams can be added to this figure for total vehicles of this capacity)

Any corrections are welcome of course.
Last edited by tonyp on Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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Brisbane's artic fleet is somewhere between 60 and 70. The lists available online haven't been updated to reflect the addition of vehicles for the Blue CityGlider.

Darwin's lone artic was withdrawn by the time CDC took over operations in the middle of last year.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

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tonyp wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:31 am Buses

Greater Sydney 5,500 (350 artics and double deck)
Greater Melbourne 2,700 (40 artics*)
Greater Brisbane 1,750+ (50 artics)
Perth 1,692 (137 artics)
Adelaide 1,034 (150 artics and double deck)
Canberra 460 (44 artics)
Hobart 167 (15 artics)
Darwin 79 (1 artic)

(* The 223x15 metre trams can be added to this figure for total vehicles of this capacity)

Any corrections are welcome of course.
Adelaide has 185 artics/deckers by my count - plus 4 ex-Darwin ones which are only used for driver training at Torrens. Percentage wise I’d say Adelaide comfortably leads on artics in total - and number wise too :shock:

Many of Adelaide’s rigids are also 11.5-11.7m long, rather than 12.5m. Although little point splitting hairs over 4 seats :P
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:56 am Brisbane's artic fleet is somewhere between 60 and 70. The lists available online haven't been updated to reflect the addition of vehicles for the Blue CityGlider.

Darwin's lone artic was withdrawn by the time CDC took over operations in the middle of last year.
I have amended the list. So do I assume that Brisbane is getting 20 Cityglider artics? I've rounded the number to reflect that.
Lt. Commander Data wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:16 am Adelaide has 185 artics/deckers by my count - plus 4 ex-Darwin ones which are only used for driver training at Torrens. Percentage wise I’d say Adelaide comfortably leads on artics in total - and number wise too :shock:

Many of Adelaide’s rigids are also 11.5-11.7m long, rather than 12.5m. Although little point splitting hairs over 4 seats :P
Adelaide is definitely the highest percentage of artics (about 18%), but at about 250 buses, Sydney still has the numbers.

Yes, Perth CAT buses are also shorter, but I've turned a blind eye as it makes little difference to capacity.
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Re: Size of the Australian capital city public transport fleet

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:51 am So do I assume that Brisbane is getting 20 Cityglider artics? I've rounded the number to reflect that.
All are in service (have been since 2020 or 2021 I think), for a total of 70 artics across the whole fleet.
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