Possible future light rail routes

[Linto63]

Continuing from here

Redeveloping Waverley Depot would close off the sometimes-studied proposal to build light rail to Bondi Beach, a subject that has never been closed off, considering the capacity issues between Bondi Junction and Bondi Beach, now and into the future.

Much some might like to thing it is a serious option, light rail to Bondi Beach won't happen, Regardless of which corridor it were to be routed down (Bondi Road or Old Old South Head Road) it would require the removal of all parking to become a 24/7 clearway. Even a circular route using both would require one lane to become parking free. If this were down that would solve the problem on its own. So convert parking spaces into bus lanes for at worst a couple of hundred thousand vs build a light rail line for a couple of hundred million. No brainer really.

[alleve]

The only future light rail route that makes sense to me would be an L3 extension to Maroubra or preferably around Long Bay

[boronia]

I doubt an extension would make economic sense unless that section was opened up to higher density occupation. The Kensington area is currently the focus for new medium/high rise.

Maroubra Junction and Little/Long Bays are in the scope of a future metro.

[Transtopic]

Reinstate Parramatta Council's original proposal for a light rail route from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood, which is more direct and faster than the route via Carlingford, where it has now come to a dead-end, with no prospect of it continuing to Epping to allow interchange to the metro.

After TfNSW took over the planning for the PLR, one of its core proposals was to build a line from Parramatta to Macquarie Park, but that has now been derailed by truncating the line at Carlingford. The route via Eastwood was completely ignored, even though the government already owns most of the route via Kissing Point Rd and the reserved Eastwood County Rd corridor. It's in reverse to the original Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link, where the line from Chatswood was truncated at Epping.

The common factor in both of these misjudgments was to fully utilise the Carlingford Line corridor, even though it is too indirect compared with the route via Eastwood, which is a much larger retail/commercial centre than either Epping or Carlingford. How Epping could ever be considered a Strategic Centre is a joke. All it's got is the metro and not much else.

Just by way of example, in spite of all the recent residential developments in Epping, it has just one remaining bank (Bendigo Bank), while Eastwood has 6 banks, including all of the majors plus St George and Bendigo Banks, which is a reflection of the relative business activity in the centres. Although I probably won't be around, I would hope that the proposed longer term metro link from Parramatta to Epping will not repeat the same mistakes of the past and also consider the more direct route via Eastwood. It still has the same connectivity with the Northern Line and Metro Northwest at Macquarie University, as would a light rail route via Eastwood. The greater trip generators will be Parramatta and Macquarie Park and hence why they should be directly connected by both light rail and future metro.

Parramatta Council's original light rail proposal followed the existing route from Westmead to Dundas on the Carlingford Line and branching off to Kissing Point Rd to Macquarie Centre via the Eastwood County Rd reservation. In view of the fact that PLR Stage 2 will now branch from the Carlingford route at Camellia, it would no longer be feasible for a line to Macquarie Park to branch at Dundas. Instead, it could branch from Church St on the current line at North Parramatta, turning into Victoria Rd and continuing to Kissing Point Rd and following the originally proposed route to Macquarie Park (University) via Eastwood.

[Stu]

Possible extension of CSELR from Kingsford. Reference material from the past 10 years.

TfNSW Future Transport. South East Sydney Transport Strategy. Published August 2020.
https://www.future.transport.nsw.gov.au ... rategy.pdf
Page 27 refers to an extension fromm Kingsford to Maroubra.
Page 34 refers to prioritising Metro extension in the Eastern Suburbs over an extension of Light Rail


Daily Telegraph. 2/11/2017.
New train to Malabar part of plan to provide for 1/3 more people in south east by 2036
A TRAIN to Malabar via Maroubra, an extension of the light rail and poor rapid bus routes will help move 1/3 more people in Sydney’s southeast by 2036.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... e34bd07469


Sydney Morning Herald. 21/4/2014. (pay wall)

Randwick Council proposes $68m changes to light rail project.

Randwick City Council has put forward a $68 million funding package in its bid to force significant changes to the state government's tram
line from Circular Quay to the eastern suburbs.

The proposal, which would be rolled out over the next five years, includes more than $40 million towards parking to offset the loss of spots
caused by the line to be built out to Randwick and Kingsford.

Councillors will consider the draft light rail support plan when they meet later this month. But the council used the announcement to highlight
the even longer list of measures it is trying to press in its discussions with Transport for NSW.

It wants the line extended to Maroubra Junction, power lines along Anzac Parade placed underground, and council input into naming the stations.
Liberal mayor Scott Nash said the light rail would bring benefits ''but with the benefits also come many challenges and inevitable disruption
to residents and businesses''.

A multi-storey car park near the Kingsford interchange is the largest investment in the council's funding package. It would allocate $30.5 million
to buy land to build the parking station near the nine-ways roundabout.

This, along with changes to on-street parking costed at $10.5 million, would partly compensate for hundreds of spaces expected to be lost to
make way for the new line. The government project is due to be completed in February 2019; preparatory works are under way.

The council proposes to build new public plazas around the Kingsford and Randwick interchanges, at a cost of $9.5 million. Further funds would
be spent on drainage works, traffic-calming measures and cycle connections.

"I want everyone in Randwick city to know that the council is well aware of their concerns and that we are working hard on developing the
right solutions,'' Cr Nash said. ''Although this is a state government project, not a council project, we're working with all stakeholders to get the
best outcome we can for our city.''

The council wants the government to move the Randwick interchange from High Cross Park to High Street and to move the light rail stabling
facility from its proposed Doncaster Avenue location.

A Transport for NSW spokesman said it welcomed the council's investment and described the extension of the line as ''a longer-term possibility
to be explored after services to Kingsford and Randwick have commenced''.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ran ... 36ywr.html

Sydney's Light Rail Future. Published December 2012. (TfNSW Long Term Master Plan)
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/ ... future.pdf
Page 20 refers to an an extension fromm Kingsford to Maroubra an possibly Malabar via Anzac Pde.


TfNSW Long Term Master Plan. Published December 2012.
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/ ... -final.pdf
Page 41. Figure 2.1 Customer research areas of satisfaction by mode.
Row 2. Light Rail.
Column 4. What will increase patronage.
1. More frequent services
2. Extended network
3. Reliable arrival time
4. Electronic ticketing across modes

[Stu]

Edited

Two more article about the possible extension of CSELR.

(TfNSW) NSW Long Term Transport Masterplan. December 2012.
Page 157.
The four stages of Sydney’s light rail future.
4. Longer term investigations.
• Investigating potential extensions to the line such as to Malabar, Walsh Bay and Barangaroo North.

Meriton Properties. Little Bay Cove Transport Assessment. Published 24/6/2019.
(Meriton / ARUP / Randwick Council)
https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/__data/ ... ssment.pdf

Page 3 & 4.

Given the complexities of this transport mode and the availability of transport corridors such as Anzac Parade, a high frequency bus service is
much more cost effective.

The tram corridor remains in place - a car park at Maroubra and grass/trees from Maroubra towards Little Bay.

[Linto63]

The tram corridor remains in place - a car park at Maroubra and grass/trees from Maroubra towards Little Bay.

The section of former tramway reservation south of Juniors Kingsford is in the process of being converted to a bike lane. Not irreversible, but does indicate that extension of the light rail isn't on the immediate agenda.

[Jurassic_Joke]

Each to their own, but my personal take would be there won’t ever be an extension of CSELR, or at least for a very long time. L2 extension to Coogee would be logistically difficult with the roads available. As for L3, well, it’s already planned to be served by a future Metro.

If Labor get in in March, and this time they’re in with an actual chance, well, they’ve pretty much always hated CSELR. And even if they didn’t, say L3 got extended southwards they’d have to somehow procure a locally made tram that would be APS compatible; Alstom doesn’t make the Citadis anywhere in Australia and you can forget more of them coming from France because remember according to Labor, foreign made stuff = doesn’t work.

The best you could realistically hope for is the Liberals getting returned to government and then a possible feasibility study of a possible L3 extension and then they’d tack on a top-up order of some more Citadis’ to fill the extra trams needed - I don’t see them taking trams from the “spares” pool.

As for a new project from scratch; well, considering the poison and delays that CSELR and PLR have attracted during their respective construction phases, I personally doubt the Liberals are in any hurry to start anything new.

[Stu]

The tram corridor remains in place - a car park at Maroubra and grass/trees from Maroubra towards Little Bay.

The section of former tramway reservation south of Juniors Kingsford is in the process of being converted to a bike lane. Not irreversible, but does indicate that extension of the light rail isn't on the immediate agenda.

Thanks for the update. I haven't been out that way for almost 7 years.

[Stu]

City Light Rail Loop.
(Sydney Light Rail Hickson Road Options Report – Final Draft, report by Hyder Consulting 2007)
I don't have the PDF or a link to the document on a webpage.

Green Square Light Rail Loop.
Green Square-Central Light Rail.

* One of my previous posts stated that there is a pay wall for Sydney Morning Herald, this is incorrect, you only have to have a valid email in order to log in and view the entrire article for free.

URBIS.
GREEN SQUARE TOWN CENTRE: A CONTEMPORARY TOWN CENTRE FOR SUSTAINABLE SYDNEY
By Murray Donaldson. 12/8/2019.
https://urbis.com.au/insights-news/gree ... le-sydney/
Light Rail Link to Central Sydney: The City of Sydney have a place holder for the light rail corridor linking Central Sydney to Green Square Town Centre, terminating at the Library Plaza in front of the Mirvac development. This priority corridor for transport has the potential to improve travel times for journeys into Central Sydney and better connections to cross-regional services.


City of Sydney Council. Green Square and Waterloo Transport.
Action Plan – Danks Street Background Paper. November 2018.
Attchment 1.
https://meetings.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.a ... 20Date.pdf


Daily Telegraph. 2/11/2017.
New train to Malabar part of plan to provide for 1/3 more people in south east by 2036.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... e34bd07469



Sydney Morning Herald. 23/5/2017.
Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaster' even before apartments built.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gre ... wazy9.html


Daily Telegraph. 19/8/2016.
No light rail for Green Square as transport congestion hits peak.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... 9f7b43f9cf


Infrastructure Australia. 17/2/2016
Southern Sydney to CBD public transport enhancement
Assement of the submission by City of Sydney Council.
https://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov ... nhancement


Sydney Morning Herald. 16/2/2016.
Light rail link to Green Square among nation's top priorities'.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/lig ... mvbhf.html


Sydney Morning Herald. 28/7/2015.
Green Square needs light rail, Transport Minister says in break from past.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/gre ... im2x8.html


Sydney Morning Herald. 21/4/2014.
Randwick Council proposes $68m changes to light rail project.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/ran ... 36ywr.html


Sydney Morning Herald. 3/3/2011.
Some get cheaper travel, others miss out.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/som ... 1bey1.html
(Kristina Keneally said the cheaper rail fares to Green Square meant a light rail line " doesn't make a great deal of sense".)

* Ms Keneally was missing the point. Population growth was increasing and had been forecast to do so in previous years due to the construction of high rise and high density dwelling being built. Public transport had not kept ahead or even kept up with population growth in the area.


City of Sydney Council. 2008.
Submission to Infrastructure Australia.
Green Square Light Rail loop and City Light Rail Loop.
https://meetings.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.a ... hmenta.pdf


Sydney Morning Herald. 23/10/2008.
Light rail transit loop to link Green Square to city.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/light-r ... dszyf.html


Sydney Morning Herald. 2/3/2007.
Council's light rail proposal hits early roadblock.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/cou ... dpky3.html

[Passenger 57]

For those interested in such things Waverley Council commissioned a report delivered in 2013 by some mob called AECOM Australia which looked at 3 (more like 2½) alternatives for the Bondi Junction - Bondi Beach routes. They recommended the route via Bondi Road. They also considered: Old South Head Road, Birriga Road & Curlewis Street which some chap called Tony Prescott previously recommended in light of Bondi Road issues with some more detail and finesse including a tunnel from Bondi Junction surfacing at or near Bellevue Hill tunnel and a loop via Blair St at the Bondi terminus in "A Practical Scheme for Light Rail Extensions in Inner Sydney" back in 2008. The Waverley Council report also examined an interesting alternative where the trams bypass a section of Bondi Road to travel instead via Birrell St via Council and Watson St. While far from optimal for anyone wishing to travel to Bondi Road using Birrell St to the maximum extent possible this would be an efficient way of shuttling people between Bondi Beach and Bondi Junction on lower traffic streets. Resuming some land to access Illawong Ave and Fletcher St thereafter as well as bypass Bondi Road altogether at the Bondi Junction end would further enhance this.

[alleve]

Light rail to Green Sq, while nice, doesn't seem like something that would work too well. The roads are congested enough in that area. Within two years the area will be served by two rail lines (T8, metro) - would it not be more efficient to reconfigure bus routes to ferry people to the two heavy rail stations? Not sure if anything could be done to make the 370 run better

[Transtopic]

Another potential light rail project is from Circular Quay, perhaps connecting directly with the L2/L3 terminus, to Bondi Junction via Phillip St, Elizabeth St, Liverpool St and Oxford St. It would balance the L2/L3 line on the western edge of the CBD, as Sydney's tramway system once did. It's effectively back to the future, covering the central core of the CBD with a modern light rail system. I was once a frequent user of the original system.

With the exception of Phillip St, a 4-lane road, it would be less disruptive during construction than the line down George St to Town Hall, as the rest of the route would be on a 6-lane road corridor until it reached the Bondi Junction Town Centre. Hyde Park is also on one side of Elizabeth and Liverpool Streets, which reduces the number of businesses which would be subject to disruption. It would allow interchange at Martin Place, St James, Town Hall and Museum with the metro and Sydney Trains' lines. It would help rejuvenate Oxford Street in particular through Darlinghurst and Paddington. There would also be the option of branching the line at Taylor Square along Flinders St, also 6 lanes, to the L2/L3 line on Anzac Pde as it once did. This would allow travel for L2/L3 commuters to Circular Quay via Central and George St or the more direct route via Taylor Square, Oxford St and Elizabeth St.

As already discussed, extending such a line down Bondi Rd to Bondi Beach is problematic because of the limited width of the 4-lane road corridor through the Bondi shopping strip. Probably better to extend the ESR to at least North Bondi or Rose Bay.

[Passenger 57]

Another potential light rail project is from Circular Quay, perhaps connecting directly with the L2/L3 terminus, to Bondi Junction via Phillip St, Elizabeth St, Liverpool St and Oxford St.

The Bondi Junction - Bondi Beach route that I referenced in Tony's 2008 paper was just a section of the City - Bondi Beach route he proposed back then. The paper contains various options for branching off other proposed and desired routes at that point in time. The paper also contains some other route proposals there for the South East, inner West and South which have been partially superseded by the less ambitious projects built after the paper was published.

Tony has published additional papers on implementation issues with the routes. You can find them on Tony's site

[tonyp]

The Bondi Junction - Bondi Beach route that I referenced in Tony's 2008 paper was just a section of the City - Bondi Beach route he proposed back then. The paper contains various options for branching off other proposed and desired routes at that point in time. The paper also contains some other route proposals there for the South East, inner West and South which have been partially superseded by the less ambitious projects built after the paper was published.

There was also another study besides the AECOM one into the BJ-Bondi Beach route.

Huge amount of water under the bridge since that Prescott rogue wrote those papers in conjunction with work being done at the time by UTS and Sydney City Council, first pitched at the tin-eared Labor government of the time, then, when it became obvious that that was a futile exercise, quickly switched to support and brief the Shadow Transport Minister at the time so that she could hit the ground running when she became Transport Minister in 2011. Most of the design of CSELR is based on that early work, the major change being that the new government decided to buy that block of units in Bourke St, Surry Hills to enable a fully-separated new alignment via Moore Park. A lot of planning for other lines around the traps was done at the same time, notably through South Sydney. It's all rather outdated now, though some of it still holds good.

Since then, of course, there has been a major implementation of light rail across sections of Sydney and Newcastle and new realities have emerged. One is that Elizabeth St is dedicated to buses, as it needs to be, and the opportunity for new tram paths through the CBD is thus very limited and, in some respects (the huge capacity and stop density of the George St line and the upcoming metro lines) unnecessary. So it's very unlikely that there will be any new tram lines through the CBD.

Secondly, it became obvious that TfNSW will never acquire the finessed ability of European jurisdictions to intimately thread lines through tight urban environments and run a crisp operation with good journey times. Their approach is more North American - inserting trundling train lines, with infrastructure bigger and more complex than Ben Hur, into streets, rather than treating it as a longer, but still relatively intimate, bus on rails which is what it should be.

Rather than expecting cultural change, it's easier to go with the flow and make the most of what they're really good at and that's metro. Extending L3 to Maroubra Jct to interchange with the SE metro is likely on the books. Extensions of L2 and L3 to Coogee and Maroubra Beaches are quite feasible but way beyond any present political horizon. For Bondi Beach there's more chance of the ESR being extended there if it was ever converted to metro. If not, probably not. The only scope for light rail on that corridor would be an isolated line extending from Waverley Depot, along Oxford St, then across to Birriga Rd (which was built as a six lane road specifically to carry trams), then running in a one-way loop along two of the local streets down on the flat to the beach.

Light rail is good where close coverage is required on the ground. Otherwise metro is the way to go and metro is what we are best at.

[jpp42]

For Bondi Beach there's more chance of the ESR being extended there if it was ever converted to metro. If not, probably not. The only scope for light rail on that corridor would be an isolated line extending from Waverley Depot, along Oxford St, then across to Birriga Rd (which was built as a six lane road specifically to carry trams), then running in a one-way loop along two of the local streets down on the flat to the beach.

Light rail is good where close coverage is required on the ground. Otherwise metro is the way to go and metro is what we are best at.

Regarding Birriga Rd and other local corridors, is there ever any chance of overcoming NIMBY-ism in that area? My feeling is that locals like the fact that the beaches are a little hard to get to, and any effort to make it easier, especially if it requires years of inconvenience as the trams lines are rebuilt, would be roundly rejected.

[In Transit]

The biggest genuine local resistance is unlikely to be about making the beach more accessible (although this makes for nicely divisive and sensationalist media headlines), but about the likely pressure for seriously high density development that any light or heavy rail extension would bring. I just don’t see governments proceeding with any high capacity PT simply to address existing issues - it will remain focused on areas where development can and will occur. Unfortunately that neglects the opportunity for modal shift, but that doesn’t seem to excite governments despite all the rhetoric about climate crises etc. This is all about population growth and development opportunities on a large scale.

[Merc1107]

Unfortunately that neglects the opportunity for modal shift, but that doesn’t seem to excite governments despite all the rhetoric about climate crises etc. This is all about population growth and development opportunities on a large scale.

I fear with immigration returning (even to levels not seen for at least a few years), that there is little thought on how to accommodate this influx of people. Housing is obviously topical (albeit irrelevant here), but transport, especially mass transit options, seem to be taking a relative backseat beyond the efforts in some states to chase sprawl and votes. It's really quite unfortunate.

[tonyp]

The biggest genuine local resistance is unlikely to be about making the beach more accessible (although this makes for nicely divisive and sensationalist media headlines), but about the likely pressure for seriously high density development that any light or heavy rail extension would bring. I just don’t see governments proceeding with any high capacity PT simply to address existing issues - it will remain focused on areas where development can and will occur. Unfortunately that neglects the opportunity for modal shift, but that doesn’t seem to excite governments despite all the rhetoric about climate crises etc. This is all about population growth and development opportunities on a large scale.

Absolutely. As with other key corridors in the eastern part of Sydney (plus Victoria Rd) , it's a disaster that the previous tram service (which could carry 7,000 pphpd to and from Bondi) was ripped up, leaving us with a mode that struggles with capacity, yet the railed alternatives not feasible without a major development agenda that would present a political challenge that would have any government looking for easier options (like SE Sydney).

So where there isn't a major development agenda and thus justification for a railed mode, I guess the alternative of fighting the heavy vehicle regs to allow double artics on the route is a difficult one, despite Brisbane City Council lairing its double artic around the streets with some sort of a wink and a nod, probably with an understanding that it will settle into the busways and not escape again. Worth a further look imho.

I think Australia is going to need to address the double artic soon, because, with growing population and demand, Brisbane certainly won't be the last with a wish for it. Indeed, its appearance there is likely to stimulate interest elsewhere. Like a standard artic, as an electric it would either have to be a battery trolley or a less flexible opportunity charge bus like the Brisbane one where it tops up at termini and at stops along the way if necessary.

[boronia]

So where there isn't a major development agenda and thus justification for a railed mode, I guess the alternative of fighting the heavy vehicle regs to allow double artics on the route is a difficult one, despite Brisbane City Council lairing its double artic around the streets with some sort of a wink and a nod, probably with an understanding that it will settle into the busways and not escape again. Worth a further look imho.

All that is required is an expensive permit from the NHVR for a specific oversize/overweight vehicle, which will stipulate conditions relating to its use. Like 14.5 rigids, it can be restricted to defined routes. Council approvals are usually also required for use on local roads, but BCC would have that obstacle easily sorted.

[tonyp]

All that is required is an expensive permit from the NHVR for a specific oversize/overweight vehicle, which will stipulate conditions relating to its use. Like 14.5 rigids, it can be restricted to defined routes. Council approvals are usually also required for use on local roads, but BCC would have that obstacle easily sorted.

A specific vehicle or a specific model of vehicle being a small fleet on the same route/s?

[boronia]

It's been a while since I used the application, but I think you could put multiple vehicles of the same specifications on a single form.

[rogf24]

All buses over 12.5m need this approval.

[tonyp]

All buses over 12.5m need this approval.

Or vehicles over 18 metres in the case of artics.