Parramatta light rail

[alleve]

100% right on the first two sentences. You completely lost me on the third.

Social justice warriors are activists who want to impose their radical socialist beliefs on others by force even if they know the majority don't want it or will benefit. A deep opposition to democratic principles. This is a classic case of imposition of a name to appease a minority over the majority at the expense of amenity.

I know what SJWs are, although socialism isn't necessarily related to them. You lost me because I don't agree. I see a political party thinking that wheeling out a few Indigenous names for their infrastructure projects is enough to convince the public that they care about Indigenous issues and win some votes. SJWs, wokeness, or any other buzzword of the day doesn't have anything to do with it.

Between the Parramatta Light Rail, Pitt St station and Ferry McFerryface the LNP has somehow gotten naming things wrong three times now, one would think they'd learn and just call things by the name they've always had. Even their less controversial choices are poor - why on Earth would you name Pitt St station after Pitt St, a several km long street with numerous other stations along it? Park St or Bathurst St would both be better choices because they aren't North-South, and narrow down the location of the station far better than a street that runs the entire length of the CBD.

[Swift]

Like naming a subway station Broadway.
What you call buzzwords are terms for very concerning movrments that are gaining inordinate traction thanks to permeating corporations and other institutions in a fast insidious manner like a virus and I see this as a symptom . Even the LNP has been influenced and dragged to the left on some issues which they never would have before.
It's telling how powerful it has been when naming of stations has been dragged into this despite being obviously illogical.

[grog]

Do we really need to have this conversation over and over? It’s boring. The stop names will become locality names over time and you will get over it.

So, how ‘bout that new light rail vehicle?

Is this the only one that is arriving for now - as a pre-election stunt - or are they going to have to start finding places to keep all of these vehicles as they arrive ahead of the stabling and maintenance facility being available?

[matthewg]

Is this the only one that is arriving for now - as a pre-election stunt - or are they going to have to start finding places to keep all of these vehicles as they arrive ahead of the stabling and maintenance facility being available?

The transport company organised a 'secret secure storage' site 12 months ago when it became apparent the depot was massively delayed due to the toxic waste remediation required at the site. The first car was supposed to arrive around this time 12 months ago.

I assume this one was 'delivered' purely as a PR stunt, and it's probably already been reloaded onto the transporter trailer and removed to 'secure storage'. After Canberra's first CAF was vandalised in the partially completed depot, I think on the first night it spent there, I assume they are being very positively paranoid over this one.

I would be interested to know just how much TfNSW shelled out for this PR exercise. The transport/handling costs alone could have got as high as 6 figures.

[boronia]

It could be like the Varios when they were removed from service. Taken to a "secret location" for storage, but soon discovered.

As the same transport company is likely to be involved in this operation, perhaps some surveillance of Castlereagh Rd North Penrith might be in order?

[Linto63]

Varios weren't dumped in a secret location, just somewhere big enough to accommodate them and not overly expensive.

[grog]

So watching the press conference where they talked about the local content requirement for PLR2… do we seriously expect them to be able to select any supplier other than CAF?

You also wouldn’t really be able to have 2 separate operators for the different stages, but I did just pick up that the operating contract ends in 2032. Perhaps PLR2 opens around that time with a new bidding process for the whole thing? Or the fact that the contract will rebid within a few years of PLR2 opening reduces the leverage that the current operator has in negotiations.

https://www.tenders.nsw.gov.au/?event=p ... AFECB687B3

[tonyp]

So watching the press conference where they talked about the local content requirement for PLR2… do we seriously expect them to be able to select any supplier other than CAF?

You also wouldn’t really be able to have 2 separate operators for the different stages, but I did just pick up that the operating contract ends in 2032. Perhaps PLR2 opens around that time with a new bidding process for the whole thing? Or the fact that the contract will rebid within a few years of PLR2 opening reduces the leverage that the current operator has in negotiations.

https://www.tenders.nsw.gov.au/?event=p ... AFECB687B3

Thanks for the link. The question with local content is: do we seriously expect them to be able to select any supplier rather than Alstom? Alstom is the only tram manufacturing company with an assembly facility for trams in Australia and it's in Melbourne. The probity of tendering and requiring local, when you know there's only a single supplier on the local market, is, I would think, highly dubious. Beyond that, Alstom may not find it viable to assemble a mere half dozen trams of a different model to what they normally assemble, or, if they could be persuaded, they would apply an eye-watering premium to the price - as they do already with locally assembled Melbourne trams which are supplied in their hundreds, let alone half a dozen.

As for other manufacturers, none will sink cost into establishing an assembly facility in a faraway country for those six or so trams, without the likelihood of further orders. There just wouldn't be a return on the investment or, again, there'd be a premium on the price that would make the 100% added to the cost of some locally-assembled train orders lately look tame. There are going to be a few political red faces when they discover that their "local trams" dream is unrealisable, except at astonishing cost. I wouldn't put it past them (Labor in particular) to spend that astonishing cost just for the principle of it. Alternatively, Labor would say that trams are too expensive and Stage 2 will be buses. The Coalition would wear the cost or back down (whichever alternative they choose) as just another bad headline and ammo for Labor! And so it goes, the blundering juggernaut of NSW public transport rolls on ....

[Swift]

Forget where they're built, what about the all important spec? Hehe they learned yet and ordered swiveling bogies or have learned but ordered fixed anyway (most likely)?

[Randomness]

Someone asked about the cracking and one of the "experts" replied that the PLR trams are of the "3rd Generation" and they have "learned their lesson" by using aluminium instead of what's on the IWLR. I'm guessing aluminium is stronger, but stress is stress and so they'll probably be problems down the line anyways - it is CAF after all, producers of notoriously faulty products.

It does seem like once again TfNSW has been conned into thinking that a cheap solution is a permanent one. Won't be suprised if in 5 years time, they'll be speed restictions across the entire line. When will they realise...

[tonyp]

Someone asked about the cracking and one of the "experts" replied that the PLR trams are of the "3rd Generation" and they have "learned their lesson" by using aluminium instead of what's on the IWLR. I'm guessing aluminium is stronger, but stress is stress and so they'll probably be problems down the line anyways - it is CAF after all, producers of notoriously faulty products.

It does seem like once again TfNSW has been conned into thinking that a cheap solution is a permanent one. Won't be suprised if in 5 years time, they'll be speed restictions across the entire line. When will they realise...

Yes exactly, that's BS. The fundamental cause of the problem is still there and the structure of the tram is still under the same stresses and something will give eventually. If it's not the tram body or bogie, the track and wheels will be milled prematurely, thus maintenance costs will be higher.

The average ordinary citizen is probably more astute about buying a can than TfNSW is about buying public transport vehicles. Perhaps that's because they're not spending their own personal money. Now, if they stepped outside of their state bubble and spoke to Melbourne, we might actually make progress.

Edit: Just coming back to the aluminium reference. The reason aluminium is used for bodywork in trams (as also in buses etc) is to save weight (in this case, probably because of the batteries added to the roof), not for strength. Steel is stronger and aluminium welds can fail more easily. It sounds like somebody was simply regurgitating assurances from the manufacturer at that meeting.

[Swift]

I guess another IWLR fiasco won't be as damaging for PR out there.
They won't have the luxury of scabbing some LRVs off an adjoining line either.

[matthewg]

and they have "learned their lesson" by using aluminium instead of what's on the IWLR. I'm guessing aluminium is stronger, but stress is stress and so they'll probably be problems down the line anyways - it is CAF after all, producers of notoriously faulty products.

Aluminium is stronger than steel by weight, but not by volume, so to get the same strength as steel, everything needs to be larger. It also doesn't like cyclic loading and is far less forgiving than steels to that sort of thing. It's also much more difficult to weld well.

Changing to aluminium frames could come back to bite them if they didn't do their structural analysis right and hire properly trained welders.

CAF railcars supplied to the UK that have aluminium frames have had bogie yaw damper brackets fail, so I wouldn't be so sure CAF did their sums right.

[Swift]

That's the beauty of steel, is it's sheer strength for it's size. In certain applications, aluminium saves weight and is strong enough without needing to be much larger.

[lunchbox]

YALLAMUNDI
This station name was raised in discussion on this thread on 7/12/22. The Geographical Names Board has advised that it has a "policy" of "reawakening" aboriginal place names, and that Yallamundi is a result of that policy. I have requested an explanation as to how "Yallamundi" represents a "reawakening", particularly in regard to the word appearing in print.
240920

[tonyp]

YALLAMUNDI
This station name was raised in discussion on this thread on 7/12/22. The Geographical Names Board has advised that it has a "policy" of "reawakening" aboriginal place names, and that Yallamundi is a result of that policy. I have requested an explanation as to how "Yallamundi" represents a "reawakening", particularly in regard to the word appearing in print.
240920

New South Wales - proudly reawakening Aboriginal place names since 1788.

We have nothing to prove as we have a sterling record of using Aboriginal place names on an industrial scale for some 230 years. If some GNB staff are suffering "white guilt" that's their problem, don't inflict it on others.

Like most on the board here, I don't want to declare much of what I've done in my past life. It's obvious that I've worked on the subject of disability and accessibility during my working life. I was also the co-author of the first Aboriginal heritage planning guidelines for NSW. The Aboriginal bloke I worked with thought this token renaming of places was a joke and said to me it didn't matter because "they're all dead anyway". Not to say that we shouldn't do it, but there has to be a balance struck between that ideal and the pragmatics of wayfinding.

[Aurora]

Agreed, plenty of names around for centuries, albeit many anglicised, but nothing wrong with that in an English speaking nation.

[tonyp]

Agreed, plenty of names around for centuries, albeit many anglicised, but nothing wrong with that in an English speaking nation.

And even the transliterations of the words used today are not entirely accurate.

[lunchbox]

INTERCHANGE - Between the Carlingford and Carter Street branches....

The "Stage 2" documents suggest passengers walk between Rosehill Gardens, on the Carlingford branch, and Sandown Boulevard on the Carter St. branch, and label the transfer as "one minute". Travelling east to north would require walking (or wheelcharing for some) across 4 tracks.

An island platform immediately west of the track junction would enable simple, cross-platform interchange, for everybody.

Submissions on the Stage 2 EIS CLOSE THIS FRIDAY 16 DECEMBER 2022.
241004

[Swift]

GNB have been infiltrated too. Not only big virtue signaling companies anymore. God help us.

[Aurora]

INTERCHANGE - Between the Carlingford and Carter Street branches....

The "Stage 2" documents suggest passengers walk between Rosehill Gardens, on the Carlingford branch, and Sandown Boulevard on the Carter St. branch, and label the transfer as "one minute". Travelling east to north would require walking (or wheelcharing for some) across 4 tracks.

An island platform immediately west of the track junction would enable simple, cross-platform interchange, for everybody.

Submissions on the Stage 2 EIS CLOSE THIS FRIDAY 16 DECEMBER 2022.
241004

Isn’t Tramway Avenue (the previous stop) available?

[lunchbox]

^^^^^^^^^^Yes, but one loses travel time in both directions, and it's necessary to change platforms by crossing the tracks.

[boronia]

You might lose travel time by having to go the extra distance, but you could spend the same amount of time waiting for the connecting tram to arrive. I doubt there would be timetabled connections.

(Seems a bit like wanting to travel from Kingsford to Randwick by tram; you'd have to go to Moore Park to change. Yes, you wouldn't because there is a more direct bus service.)

[lunchbox]

^^^^^^^^that "same amount of time" is not alternative, it's cumulative....

[Glen]

INTERCHANGE - Between the Carlingford and Carter Street branches....

An island platform immediately west of the track junction would enable simple, cross-platform interchange, for everybody.

Submissions on the Stage 2 EIS CLOSE THIS FRIDAY 16 DECEMBER 2022.
241004

Is there space there between the junction and the beginning of the bridge over James Ruse Drive?