New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Randomness »

Union post if useful. Something about a new deed for the NIF but needing to agree to a wage cap if they want the modifications. https://www.facebook.com/RTBUNSW/posts/ ... ZJRy3gPHml
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

Randomness wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:16 am Union post if useful. Something about a new deed for the NIF but needing to agree to a wage cap if they want the modifications. https://www.facebook.com/RTBUNSW/posts/ ... ZJRy3gPHml
There's nothing new about the government agreeing to signing off on a deed for the NIF modifications, conditional upon also incorporating a settlement on wage negotiations. The union wants these issues to be considered separately, which I don't think is unreasonable. This appears to have been the sticking point up until now.

It's interesting to note that the new deed put forward by the government on the matter of the NIF modifications is different to the one previously agreed upon in June. What are they playing at? The simple answer is that they are not genuinely interested in resolving this dispute and want to string it out for as long as they can in the leadup to next March's election to deflect blame onto the union and gain a political advantage. They don't want to be seen to be caving in to the union's demands. They're a bunch of imbeciles and don't give a stuff about inconvenience to the public when this matter could be easily resolved. In spite of criticism of Elliott, he is at least trying to put this matter to rest, but is being stymied by his factional opponents.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

Yeah I'm surprised how much my feeling toward Dave has rotated since he took on transit. I found him a bit abrasive as Cop minister but since he took over from Andrew, he seems to have a level head for a Liberal transport minister.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Years late, NSW’s new trains to finally start carrying passengers

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/yea ... 5c4f2.html
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by matthewg »

Swift wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:57 pm Yeah I'm surprised how much my feeling toward Dave has rotated since he took on transit. I found him a bit abrasive as Cop minister but since he took over from Andrew, he seems to have a level head for a Liberal transport minister.
He's also already been knifed in the back by the party, leaving at the next election, so he's freer to act without worrying about his future, he already doesn't have one. A few more knives in the back won't make any difference to this career at this point.

It wouldn't put it past the senior party management to have planned it that way - the guy they have already planned an exit for takes the hit for 'backing down to the unions'. He takes the hit for the team and the party keeps its hard-line stance.

Personally, I think all this does is strengthen the business case for more automation. The union will lose when more and more trains become ZERO crew trains. If they had accepted one-person trains, that could have put full automation back years as it simply wouldn't be worth it just to get rid of one person. Now heavy rail automation gets rid of TWO people. Tilts the sums to more automation.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Aurora »

You are right there, automation would save nearly twice the money by replacing two-crewed trains as opposed to just one if that scenario had been allowed to occur, therefore balancing the cost recovery more toward its favour in the future.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by eddy »

There are a few people who take their bikes on intercity trains and if they took out more seats perhaps the guards could be gainfully employed assisting many more electric bikes, mobility scooters and strollers so they can be used to their destination.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

Aurora wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:42 am You are right there, automation would save nearly twice the money by replacing two-crewed trains as opposed to just one if that scenario had been allowed to occur, therefore balancing the cost recovery more toward its favour in the future.
It has been estimated overseas that operators are saving as much as 50% in operating costs by fully automating, since crew costs are usually the largest single item in operating costs. That's a comparison with driver-only trains, which are the most common form of non-automated commuter train operation nowadays. Imagine the same comparison with our two-crew trains.
eddy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:05 pm There are a few people who take their bikes on intercity trains and if they took out more seats perhaps the guards could be gainfully employed assisting many more electric bikes, mobility scooters and strollers so they can be used to their destination.
The NIFs already have the poorest proportion of at-level seating of any double deck train in NSW to date and much of it is flip-up seating, which means it could also be taken by somebody with a pram, wheelchair or bike. There is a significant section of the population with so-called "hidden disabilities" who need at-level seating because they have difficulty with stairs, as publicised on the recent International Day of People with Disability. To reduce even further the amount of at-level seating in the NIFs would be most undesirable. They're a poorly designed train and the vestibules and end compartments are going to be an ongoing battlefield full of people pitted against wheelchairs, prams, bikes and luggage - which will also make passenger exchange through the vestibules difficult, as we regularly see on the Airport trains. It's a relative of the same issue with buses. Bare minimum compliance is not adequate and you end up with a dysfunctional vehicle and customers not properly provided for.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

matthewg wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:11 am

Personally, I think all this does is strengthen the business case for more automation. The union will lose when more and more trains become ZERO crew trains. If they had accepted one-person trains, that could have put full automation back years as it simply wouldn't be worth it just to get rid of one person. Now heavy rail automation gets rid of TWO people. Tilts the sums to more automation.
Especially since it's already in operation with trains that work much better. It will be seen as part and parcel of a modern system. The commies have shot themselves in the the foot with their refusal to show flexibility.
This same inflexible undynamic attitude is preventing all door boarding on buses despite 21st century innovations like dash mounted door monitors and modern interlocks.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 1:51 pm Especially since it's already in operation with trains that work much better. It will be seen as part and parcel of a modern system. The commies have shot themselves in the the foot with their refusal to show flexibility.
This same inflexible undynamic attitude is preventing all door boarding on buses despite 21st century innovations like dash mounted door monitors and modern interlocks.
There would be a stupendous amount of investment required for automation of the suburban system, let alone the interurban system. The best we can hope for on the legacy system is driver-only trains, which every other railway system, with a few exceptions, has nowadays. That in itself, requires a bit of work - or a lot of work on the interurban system.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by eddy »

eddy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:05 pm There are a few people who take their bikes on intercity trains and if they took out more seats perhaps the guards could be gainfully employed assisting many more electric bikes, mobility scooters and strollers so they can be used to their destination.
It may even be possible to build a single deck carriage coupled to the DD train suitable for intercity work that the guard can use for electric bikes, strollers, mobility scooters and much luggage.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:07 pm There would be a stupendous amount of investment required for automation of the suburban system, let alone the interurban system. The best we can hope for on the legacy system is driver-only trains, which every other railway system, with a few exceptions, has nowadays. That in itself, requires a bit of work - or a lot of work on the interurban system.
If you mean driver-only with GoA2, then I agree. This is what is being proposed for Sydney's Suburban and Intercity electrified network and is being trialled on T4. It's wishful thinking to suggest that the existing legacy network could be converted to driverless operation (GoA4). As mentioned in the attached article, there are still many challenges in introducing a fully automated driverless system to GoA4 standard on mainline legacy systems where there are mixed traffic uses. Thameslink and the new Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) in London are good examples of where there can be seamless automation (GoA2) with existing manually operated lines with common compatibility. The article also states that while there may be an aspiration to reach driverless GoA4 on legacy networks, it may not always be feasible, which I would expect to be the case in Sydney, where you have multiple lines running side by side.

https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/au ... main-line/
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: It has been estimated overseas that operators are saving as much as 50% in operating costs by fully automating, since crew costs are usually the largest single item in operating costs. That's a comparison with driver-only trains, which are the most common form of non-automated commuter train operation nowadays. Imagine the same comparison with our two-crew trains.
In the context of the operator of this fleet of trains, NSW TrainLink's 2,100 employees only account for 25-30% of its cost base.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by eddy »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:57 am
tonyp wrote: It has been estimated overseas that operators are saving as much as 50% in operating costs by fully automating, since crew costs are usually the largest single item in operating costs. That's a comparison with driver-only trains, which are the most common form of non-automated commuter train operation nowadays. Imagine the same comparison with our two-crew trains.
In the context of the operator of this fleet of trains, NSW TrainLink's 2,100 employees only account for 25-30% of its cost base.
The future of intercity trains in my opinion will be fast metro like Tony says and the DD will have a single deck carriage with a guard assisting people on and off with electric bikes etc. around Sydney.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the fleet that will be operating intercity services for the next 30-40 years has already been delivered.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by eddy »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:54 am Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the fleet that will be operating intercity services for the next 30-40 years has already been delivered.
Yes mate I was thinking it would take NSW that long to build it in long straight tunnels.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Fleet Lists »

If we want to further discuss such futuristic trains for the intercity lines, please do it in a separate thread and keep this one for the ones which are currently being introduced.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Fleet Lists »

A new thread has been raised for the futuristic one at viewtopic.php?t=92796
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:57 am
tonyp wrote: It has been estimated overseas that operators are saving as much as 50% in operating costs by fully automating, since crew costs are usually the largest single item in operating costs. That's a comparison with driver-only trains, which are the most common form of non-automated commuter train operation nowadays. Imagine the same comparison with our two-crew trains.
In the context of the operator of this fleet of trains, NSW TrainLink's 2,100 employees only account for 25-30% of its cost base.
Does that include all employees, including station staff, or only drivers and guards?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:54 am Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the fleet that will be operating intercity services for the next 30-40 years has already been delivered.
I agree. The NIF will be in 10-car train sets in the peak and it's fanciful for eddy to suggest that you add or even substitute a DD carriage with a SD carriage in a 10-car set. It should be remembered that one of the reasons for the 10-car NIF sets, which are virtually longer Oscars, is that because of the 2+2 seating compared with the Oscar's 2+3, it was intended to equate the seating capacity with the V-set's 2+2 seating. The 10-car NIF is slightly longer than an 8-car V-set, nominally around 200m.

The NIF will undoubtedly be more comfortable than the Oscars with more space between seats, but it remains to be seen if the fixed seating will go down well with commuters. You would think that they would have learned a lesson from the debacle of the Tangaras with their fixed seating, but it seems that the Pommie influence still pervades in TfNSW. Although in saying that, the new CAF regional trains will have flip-over seating.

I sometimes wonder if an updated V-set, with longer carriages and more SD space, might have been a more viable option.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: ]Does that include all employees, including station staff, or only drivers and guards?
Presumably all employees. NSW TrainLink's 2022 annual report (page 76) states it had 2,180 employees. Although there is a degree of subcontracting to Sydney Trains, e.g. the latter operates all of the maintenance depots and is responsible for maintaining the infrastructure as far as Newcastle, Lithgow and Bomaderry, so whether these employees are included in NSW TrainLink or Sydney Trains headcounts is unknown.
Transtopic wrote: You would think that they would have learned a lesson from the debacle of the Tangaras with their fixed seating,
The point was raised when a mock up was shown to interested parties early in the program, but evidently TfNSW decided to stay the course. NSW is one of the very few jurisdictions that still purchase trains with reversible seating, every other Australian state has been purchasing fixed seating trains for decades.
Transtopic wrote: I sometimes wonder if an updated V-set, with longer carriages and more SD space, might have been a more viable option.
By having carriages the same length as the Millenium and Waratahs, it will allow for metro style platform gates to be installed in the future.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:44 pm
Transtopic wrote: ]Does that include all employees, including station staff, or only drivers and guards?
Presumably all employees. NSW TrainLink's 2022 annual report (page 76) states it had 2,180 employees. Although there is a degree of subcontracting to Sydney Trains, e.g. the latter operates all of the maintenance depots and is responsible for maintaining the infrastructure as far as Newcastle, Lithgow and Bomaderry, so whether these employees are included in NSW TrainLink or Sydney Trains headcounts is unknown.
Transtopic wrote: You would think that they would have learned a lesson from the debacle of the Tangaras with their fixed seating,
The point was raised when a mock up was shown to interested parties early in the program, but evidently TfNSW decided to stay the course. NSW is one of the very few jurisdictions that still purchase trains with reversible seating, every other Australian state has been purchasing fixed seating trains for decades.
Transtopic wrote: I sometimes wonder if an updated V-set, with longer carriages and more SD space, might have been a more viable option.
By having carriages the same length as the Millenium and Waratahs, it will allow for metro style platform gates to be installed in the future.
Thanks for that feedback.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by matthewg »

Transtopic wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:24 pm
The NIF will undoubtedly be more comfortable than the Oscars with more space between seats, but it remains to be seen if the fixed seating will go down well with commuters. You would think that they would have learned a lesson from the debacle of the Tangaras with their fixed seating, but it seems that the Pommie influence still pervades in TfNSW. Although in saying that, the new CAF regional trains will have flip-over seating.
Apparently user comments on their mockup were overwhelming for reversible seating, but they (TfNSW) really really wanted seats with tray backs and USB power, etc, and you can't have that with flip-back seats.

The train seat market is overwhelmingly for fixed seating, if you want reversible your options shrink significantly. Using reversible seats in the regional fleet is probably one of the many sticking points with CAF. They cost more, weigh more and their use affects the seat pitch and thus the ultimate capacity of the carriage.

A lot of design in PT vehicles is different by price, ease of cleaning and robustness. Comfort for the user is way down the list.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by grog »

The shift to WFH and the ability for city workers to get “work hours” in on the train while on long rides from outside of Sydney have probably vindicated TfNSW in prioritising tray tables and charging to be honest. They probably got lucky on that one.

No reason why a “hybrid” office/WFH worker couldn’t get on a train in Gosford at 8am and work for 90 minutes before getting to the office at 9:45am and being able to leave again at 3:30pm to continue working on the way home. As long as you can be sure of a seat that is!

Certainly makes the 1-2 days in the office more tolerable for those who abandoned Sydney during the pandemic. Whether that is a good thing or not (encouraging super long commutes for low fares for people who make good money) remains to be seen I guess?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

Reversible seating weighs more too. The higher the weight of the train, the higher the power consumption and the lower the performance. Passenger comfort is up against quite a weight of counter-arguments. The journey time argument is being ignored too. You can get away with fixed seating on a metropolitan service. Once you get out into the regions, you should be providing reversible seating.
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