Foldable bicycles on buses

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boxythingy
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Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by boxythingy »

Why is it that this particular bus operator, Busways has a slightly liberalised and common-sense approach about bikes on buses?
- It is a foldable bike, folded and stowed in the baggage or wheelchair area.

- The bus is a rail replacement service that is wheelchair accessible (low floor bus). Rail replacement services will accept customers with regular bicycles.
The overall TfNSW policy just says
Bicycles cannot be taken on buses because they are difficult to stow without inconveniencing or potentially endangering other passengers.

Surfboards can be taken on board, although the driver may refuse if the service is at capacity.
Don't prams or large luggage suitcases pose a danger if not stored properly? In fact the latter, don't even have dedicated marked spaces or wheel brakes.

I have also seen lads and eshays bring on board buses standard unfoldable bikes on ordinary bus services (not rail replacement services as per Busway's own exception.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Merc1107 »

My suspicion is it is a combination of that wonderful overbearing obsession, Workplace Health & Safety (which must be related in some way to stuff like public liability insurance), on top of ensuring the capacity of the bus is not unduly compromised. The latter of which being fairly critical when you're trying to replace a train service.

Most bicycles are far from compact, and even on a bus with a fully low floor, would surely unfairly capitalise on the small space available. Falling over a suitcase may not be fun, but falling on top of a bicycle (and getting a handle-bar, pedal or chain sprocket jabbed into you), it isn't the bicycle that would come out second best!

Frustrating though it may be, this particularly issue is one that highlights the need to plan one's journey. The number of people who wander about in a phone-induced fog yet still can't drag themselves away from TikBook, TwitFace, etc, for the short period of time needed to identify if their local train is running or not amazes me. As does the propensity for these same people to ask the advice of Rail Replacement staff, then promptly ignore it (only to complain about it later :roll: - been there, experienced that). Talk about squandering one of the most brilliant technological marvels of all time.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Linto63 »

Bicycles are a pain in the arse. If people be environmentally friendly warriors, fine, ride the bike end to end. They are becoming more of a problem on trains where self-centred owners chain them to the handrail in the vestibule, then bugger off upstairs leaving everyone to have to negotiate around it TfNSW's stance on buses is entirely correct.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by boxythingy »

then bugger off upstairs leaving everyone to have to negotiate around it
There are currently no restrictions nor specific guidance about how to position bikes, of any size on trains.

Ideally there should be guidance similar to how Prams are to be parked parallel and brakes applied on platform, or in accessible area at the front of buses.

I have always folded up the seating (where provided) in the vestibule area to place my bike as that is where prams (similar sized wheeled item) are placed so it's out of the way and not obstruction the area of movement near the doorways.

Unfortunately, passengers who are able to and where there is capacity in other parts of a rail carriage universally refuse to give room for passengers with bikes. It is also not guaranteed that these people would also give room for others with prams (not carts) and other bulkier items which may also result in buggering off upstairs and leaving others to negotiate [some movement around bikes].
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by tonyp »

I had the impression over the years that taking bikes on public transport was discouraged in peak periods, but tolerated in ferries, trains and trams off peak - a pragmatic stance.

In vehicle design terms, it is an issue of level floorspace and vehicles with stairs in them that break up the level floorspace present a problem for accommodating bikes, not necessarily for the ability to take the bike onboard in itself, but for the flow-on effects on other passengers with mobility issues who might have nowhere else to go due to the space taken up by the bike. If part of the floor/seat space is accessible only by stairs, that limits the amount of space available for other mobility-restricted passengers.

The issue is compounded by the fact that able-bodied passengers are allowed to sit or stand anywhere they like and quite regularly they prefer to stay on the at-level floor, thus reducing even further the space available to those who can't climb stairs.

There is of course a design solution to this, which I've been mentioning for years. I'll allude to it indirectly by mentioning that I've often seen bikes wheeled onto Perth trains without any issues (at least off peak). Likewise I've seen bikes wheeled on flat-floor buses in Europe without major hassle because anybody can access anywhere in the bus, regardless of their physical limitations, unless of course you have a wheelchair or pram where you'd be challenging the bike for those specific spaces.

Have our vehicle designers "got" it? Not in Australia, nor will they they, judging by about three quarters of the electric buses on display at the Bus Expo having stairs in them, in spite of there being no technical reason whatsoever for an electric bus to have anything other than a completely flat floor from front to back. Double deck trains are, of course, a bad joke for people with mobility issues and the amount of at-level seating on those has been diminishing for years, from the high point of the V sets (excluding wheelchairs though) to the low point of the NIFs (inclusive of wheelchairs but not much else).

So, in terms of taking bikes on board, we have to look beyond the rules, to the designers and the poor and uninformed assumptions that have been made over the years, especially since the technological advances that have made flat-floored, 100% accessible public transport vehicles possible.
Last edited by tonyp on Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by tonyp »

FWIW these are the Transperth rules:
Bus

No bikes, manual or powered, are allowed on board a bus, including train replacement buses unless:

It is folded, and placed in an appropriately designed, fit for purpose carry bag*
When folded the maximum dimensions are no more than 120cm x 68cm x 40cm.

Train

Yes, you can take your bike on the train as long as you take into account the following:

During off peak times

Bikes are allowed to travel on all trains, space permitting.

During peak times**

You can travel with your bike in the non-peak direction.

Bikes are not permitted during peak periods when travelling in peak direction unless:

It is folded, and placed in an appropriately designed, fit for purpose carry bag*
When folded the maximum dimensions are no more than 120cm x 68cm x 40cm.

Please note, no bicycles are allowed to enter Perth, Perth Underground or Elizabeth Quay stations during peak times.
The closest alternative stations are City West, Canning Bridge, Leederville and McIver.

Ferry

Yes, you can take your bike on the ferry at all times. There are four racks available for storage on board.

When the storage rack allocation is exhausted you are still welcome to bring your bike on board during off-peak times.

Passengers with bikes must wait for all passengers to board first.

*Passengers must hold on to devices contained in bags and not leave them on the floor of buses and trains.
**Peak periods are Monday to Friday between:

7.00am and 9.00am (travelling towards the city)
4.30pm and 6.30pm (travelling away from the city).
https://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/Using- ... s-on-board
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:42 pm When folded the maximum dimensions are no more than 120cm x 68cm x 40cm.
Not 68.5cm? :mrgreen:

I've found it quite hilarious they (Transperth) stipulate such exact figures for items. Nobody, and I mean nobody carries a tape-measure to ensure compliance with the rule, instead the approach is always pragmatic; does the bike fold? Has the passenger placed it in a carry bag (if so required)? Does it fit in the available luggage space or can the owner reasonably maintain control of the item? If yes - they are allowed onboard. If not - they just have to use pedal power (although in times past I've been told a vehicle was on standby with a trailer to ferry around people's bikes, scooters, ridiculously large prams etc).
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by boxythingy »

Around the world they have various height charts to determine whether a child rides for free, surely a discreet mark near the base of Opal Card readers or bus stop posts can serve for such purposes for folded bike (approx) dimension verification
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Swift »

boxythingy wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:48 am
I have also seen lads and eshays bring on board buses standard unfoldable bikes on ordinary bus services (not rail replacement services as per Busway's own exception.
I had a pair like that start to get belligerent and abusive when they wanted to take their bikes on the bus at St Leonard's and I explained to them bikes are not allowed.
One in particular looked like he wanted to start a blue with me. Unfortunately North Sydney police station was a kilometre behind me. I shut the doors and hit the loud pedal!
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by jpp42 »

I miss the days when you had to purchase a child ticket for your bicycle if you travelled on trains during peak hours. I thought this was a good compromise - rather than taking the Perth approach of totally banning bicycles, it discouraged their use but allowed an option if some situation occurred where you needed to ride during peak period unplanned. One of the problems with encouraging cycling is that people are worried how they'll get home if the weather turns terrible, or they suffer a mechanical issue or injury etc - allowing you to still ride the train in those circumstances but just pay a bit extra seems like the perfect compromise.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:18 am Bicycles are a pain in the arse. If people be environmentally friendly warriors, fine, ride the bike end to end. They are becoming more of a problem on trains where self-centred owners chain them to the handrail in the vestibule, then bugger off upstairs leaving everyone to have to negotiate around it TfNSW's stance on buses is entirely correct.
You need a vehicle designed to carry bikes, electric mobility scooters, strollers and luggage like a Trailerbus https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... top-button
Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu http://www.parrahub.org.au/
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Linto63 »

No you don't, the trailerbus is nothing but a figment of someone's imagination.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:02 pm No you don't, the trailerbus is nothing but a figment of someone's imagination.
Everything you see was at sometime just in someone's imagination.
Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu http://www.parrahub.org.au/
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Linto63 »

True, but only some ever come to be a reality.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:38 pm True, but only some ever come to be a reality.
I am very interested in what you see as a problem mate.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Linto63 »

I have no problem, but you have been putting your trailerbus concept up as a solution to various problems since 2013. Maybe your idea is just not practical, or maybe your are ahead of the curve. If the latter, someone from the industry will be in touch shortly with a large cheque.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Thanks for the respnse and the only problem I can see is people covering their bum like happened with the Boris Johnsons Routemaster bus that had so many modifications it was nothing like the original that everybody loved.

Regarding the death of the original Routemaster I think it was because city planners allowed cars in which reduced ridership which in turn reduced profitability which in turn caused the strike which put the final nail in it.

At 77 I have no need of money and just would like to leave the world a bit better.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Living at Bomaderry I have seen many electric bikes etc. from the Bomaderry station to Nowra and I think it is a shame they have been banned rather than making certain roads for them where they have priority over cars allowing people to put it on whatever to complete their trip the other end.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Rather than having special backroads for electric bikes etc. it may be easier and safer if unless on major signposted road cars have to give way to them anywhere in greater Sydney.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Swift »

eddy wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:13 pm Living at Bomaderry I have seen many electric bikes etc. from the Bomaderry station to Nowra and I think it is a shame they have been banned rather than making certain roads for them where they have priority over cars allowing people to put it on whatever to complete their trip the other end.
Do you mean electric stand up scooters? This is one instance where I'm glad NSW penchant for banning stuff came to the fore.
Australians cannot be trusted as push bikes show everyday.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Swift wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:30 pm
eddy wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:13 pm Living at Bomaderry I have seen many electric bikes etc. from the Bomaderry station to Nowra and I think it is a shame they have been banned rather than making certain roads for them where they have priority over cars allowing people to put it on whatever to complete their trip the other end.
Do you mean electric stand up scooters? This is one instance where I'm glad NSW penchant for banning stuff came to the fore.
Australians cannot be trusted as push bikes show everyday.
Many places in NSW have reduced speed limits https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au ... imits.html and as the number of electric mobility scooters rise rapidly with older people I suggest that cars should have to give priority to electric bikes, scooters, strollers and pedestrians on any road that is not signposted.

With owners taking their electric bike or mobility scooter with them to complete their trip and the whole road to avoid others I think after looking at Google maps it would be the way to go.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Swift »

Elderly on those mobility scooters are the most self entitled pious jerkoffs around and you want to give them more privileges? They'll think they're members of the royal family with their own crests if you give them an inch.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by eddy »

Swift wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:35 pm Elderly on those mobility scooters are the most self entitled pious jerkoffs around and you want to give them more privileges? They'll think they're members of the royal family with their own crests if you give them an inch.
Mate you will get old and they will take your licence away one day but my brother said they were great as you did not need a hat, licence or petrol.

The reason people are against electric bikes etc are they are a trip hazard and they whizz past on a tiny footpath but owners will take them home and use certain roads.

I even thought they should rip the seats out where the gaurd sits and he can help people on/off trains.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by tonyp »

eddy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:07 pm Mate you will get old and they will take your licence away one day but my brother said they were great as you did not need a hat, licence or petrol.
A lot of (younger) people on these transport forums who don't see accessibility as a significant issue (even though it's relevant for some 20% or so of the population - of all ages) are likely to get hit by the karma stick as they get older and shouldn't be so dismissive.
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Re: Foldable bicycles on buses

Post by Swift »

eddy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:07 pm
Mate you will get old and they will take your licence away one day but my brother said they were great as you did not need a hat, licence or petrol.

.
I won't be 80 year old David Jerkoff if I ever got on one.
I was trying to order a sandwich over the counter in a shopping centre because one of these escaped dodgem cars was parked in front of the counter and he mutters in gibberish wanting me to move aside for his majesty. Because I was still finishing up paying and took 2 seconds too long for his liking, he hits the loud (in this case silent) pedal to the boards as soon as I finally moved aside for him to move three metres to the tables in his overpriced buggy. They move as fast as a runner in those things. Zero consideration given by me when they do the same. They are a pet peeve and that shall continue.
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