NSW Electric Bus Plan

[Linto63]

Ultimately the decision will rest with each operator's fleet manager based on advice from the manufacturer. Perhaps Busways' fleet have received whatever modifications were required with TJH's still to be done.

[1whoknows]

TonyP. I was at the bus show bump in yesterday. Lots of new electric/ hydrogen models. You will, however, be disappointed as steps behind rear door still rule except in a few of the new toy bus models.

[tonyp]

TonyP. I was at the bus show bump in yesterday. Lots of new electric/ hydrogen models. You will, however, be disappointed as steps behind rear door still rule except in a few of the new toy bus models.

Yes i know, I've been watching developments. Australia is a bubble stuck in the 1990s in terms of its buses. A complete lack of insight into functionality and passenger amenity among both agencies and operators, with unimaginative manufacturers tagging along behind. Some of the local entrants are also going cheap by using a central driveshaft, which of course causes a high floor. Bustech looks as though it has abandoned its original ZDi concept and stuck to the anachronistic XDi platform - high floor, central driveshaft and steps at the centre door. Even Volvo can't do a fully low floor, but they're not one of the European leaders, so it doesn't surprise me.

Ironically, the traditionally conservative Brits seem to be moving ahead, with low floor models with offset driveshafts and an obvious eye on the European market and its three-door format in LHD. Custom Denning, with its British owner, is on the same path and is clearly still the local design leader.

Until the agencies start to assume some leadership, this situation will fester on. I've seen some glimmers of understanding of functionality and the advantages of stepless gangways in PTV and PTA WA, but the rest of the state and territory agencies are asleep at the wheel.

I'd like to see Custome Denning, or maybe Ebusco too, tackle the Perth CAT market by convincing PTA of the benefits of three doors, since Volvo has completely dropped the ball.

[Merc1107]

They aren't THAT forward looking in WA, as much as PTA are ahead of the rest.

The new non-CAT electrics are configured in the conventional seating layout (albeit with the same almost low-floor arrangement, just more seats), obviously no thought about making it easier for passengers with prams and other luggage to go about their business on the bus - even if on a trial basis.
On busier runs drivers are put in the awkward position of having to refuse service to whoever the unlucky 3rd person with a wheelchair/pram/large shopping dolly is, all thanks to this insistence on ignoring decades of innovation overseas. Not even the buses previously dedicated to the Perth Airport services had their seating density substantially reduced to adequately cater for the service they were running; many times I had to shove my 15kg suitcase into the space between seats and sit on it to avoid the crowd swarming around the front door luggage racks.

[tonyp]

They aren't THAT forward looking in WA, as much as PTA are ahead of the rest.

The new non-CAT electrics are configured in the conventional seating layout (albeit with the same almost low-floor arrangement, just more seats), obviously no thought about making it easier for passengers with prams and other luggage to go about their business on the bus - even if on a trial basis.
On busier runs drivers are put in the awkward position of having to refuse service to whoever the unlucky 3rd person with a wheelchair/pram/large shopping dolly is, all thanks to this insistence on ignoring decades of innovation overseas. Not even the buses previously dedicated to the Perth Airport services had their seating density substantially reduced to adequately cater for the service they were running; many times I had to shove my 15kg suitcase into the space between seats and sit on it to avoid the crowd swarming around the front door luggage racks.

If an agency's minimum standards exclude the XDi/VST from their cities, then I define them as at least having some standard!

So the non-CAT BZLs don't have that second set of longitudinal seating further back? I can understand that to some degree, it's little different from the wheelchair/pram/luggage arrangements in most typical Australian buses, but at least there are no gangway stairs till near the back. If you want to see an unholy mess trying to accommodate those functions, plus people unable to climb stairs, come to Nowra and see the CB80 Cargos. I'm wondering how long our honeymoon with the artics will last.

[Merc1107]

Have experienced a regular CB80 up in our Northern capital, Darwin ... those steps are a real challenge for inebriated passengers!

[tonyp]

Have experienced a regular CB80 up in our Northern capital, Darwin ... those steps are a real challenge for inebriated passengers!

The steps can't be blamed on the bodybuilder, it's determined by the competency of the engine/chassis builder's design. As a diesel low-entry, Volvo and Merc have a well-designed chassis, MAN is terrible, as is the electric BYD. The average thinking (as opposed to non-thinking) operator and agency should be looking at which chassis has the kindest aisle stairs. Or, they could choose a low floor chassis and not have to think about that at all.

[Campbelltown busboy]

What happens with small charter operators and the second hand bus market when the state first goes full electric

[moa999]

Why would anything change?

For starters there will be 20+ yrs of diesels being retired.

And even when we teach a full electric fleet a 20-30yo electric will still have usable range for most smaller operators, and you will probably also have 2nd hand hydrogen buses for those who will need longer range

[Merc1107]

... you will probably also have 2nd hand hydrogen buses

As with CNG buses, the constraint for those procuring H2 buses will be expiry of the hydrogen storage cylinders, cost of their replacement, and the cost of the refuelling infrastructure (assuming they don't utilise a hot-swappable cylinder system). This is before any consideration on the lifespan of the fuel-cells themselves.

[Swift]

It took long enough for EV buses to finally get rolled out.
https://youtu.be/PZdTJ2oUQS4?t=15m33s.

[tonyp]

It took long enough for EV buses to finally get rolled out.
https://youtu.be/PZdTJ2oUQS4?t=15m33s.

Try again - 1932.


Photo credit to The Inspector.

[Swift]

Sydney's always behind even if it's as much as 48 years in that case.

[Linto63]

Various transport authorities around the world experimented with battery buses from the 1970s. That it would be some decades before they were rolled out in serious numbers would suggest that the numbers just didn't add up. MTT 216 was a trolleybus, not a battery bus, a very different animal in terms of flexibility.

[boronia]

Battery technology in the 1970s was much less sophisticated to what it is now. That alone would have stifled viable adoption of the mode.

[tonyp]

No doubt others will have accounts and photos of the Bus Expo. I'm working out what to do with my photos that I took in the hope of illustrating points here, because many of them are over the 300 KB size and I don't have the means of reducing them on my new computer. So words will have to do for now till I work that out. I'm almost immobile tonight because the point I'm always making about easy access came home to my arthritic knees and hips with a vengeance today as I tackled the many high steps that today's design geniuses in the Australian bus industry have scattered throughout their buses. I was delighted to see a c1970 Bedford VAL on display by the bus museum, which brought back many memories, but I did ponder the irony that its high stairs have apparently become fashionable again as the accessibility revolution of the 1990s seems to fade away in the minds of our bus builders - with a couple of notable exceptions.

There's more to accessibility than wheelchairs and I hope, when they reach a certain age, karma comes to those think accessibility isn't that important and is only about the occasional wheelchair, so let's not bother thinking about it. And, no, there often isn't enough space to sit down the front of the bus, before somebody says that. Another thing is that, when your legs and hips weaken, to climb stairs, you have to grab onto something with your hands and haul yourself up. Not all buses with steps have conveniently-placed stanchions for doing that. The only good doorway I found today was the plug door on the Element, where there were two sturdy handrails in the entry to haul yourself aboard. In other buses I had to grab hold of the doors themselves and, in doing so today, there were a few ominous cracking sounds as the doors gave way under my weight. I hope I haven't left too many trashed door mechanisms behind today, but if I have, then the manufacturers should go back to the drawing board.

To get to the point, there were a dozen or so electric buses or chassis on display. I looked at them with a bias towards accessibility, functionality and comfort, not their technical credentials as I'm sure most of them would perform similarly, though I suspect none would come near the c 500 km range of the Element. I was going to look at seat pitch as part of comfort, but after trying a number, I concluded that this varied between buses and between areas of each bus. At 1.9 metres tall, I'm accustomed to taking up two seats throughout my bussing life, but I have to say, the buses today weren't too bad overall.

After observing electric buses in Europe for many years, it was depressing to see that the majority today were only low-entry buses, a format that electric buses (indeed diesel buses too) in Europe gave up nearly a quarter of a century ago. After all, there's no diesel motor under the floor and the drivetrains have typically been relocated to the offside under the seats. Not to be deterred, however, a number of our local entrants are fighting a gallant rearguard action and, combined with finding a raised rear floor also a convenient place to put batteries, there are some truly monumental aisle stairs on display here and floors so high that you hit your head on the ceiling. What a circus.

Some categorisation and notes on the electric buses on display:

100% Low floor (stepless gangway)

Custom Denning Element, locally-built integral bus. We know all about this one.

Scania BEV chassis (Swedish). Has a two-speed gearbox like the Volvo BZL. This is basically the long-established N series chassis with an electric drive and is a European three-door chassis, with the front end converted to RHD. The space for the rearmost door is still there, but of course on the wrong side of the bus and, for Australia, is fitted with a frame to support seats. The rep I spoke to suggested that if they had a large enough order they might consider re-engineering to swap the three doors and drivetrain to the opposite sides, the same possibility in theory likely applying to the Element I imagine. How big is a big enough order I wouldn't know. The Scania BEV is already being prepared for Adelaide I believe and this chassis on display today will receive a Volgren body and will be put forward for the NSW Panel.

HZ City Gold 10 metre integral hydrogen bus.

EV 70 integral 7 metre bus (similar to the Hino Poncho). Both these buses appear to be a Japanese (Toyota) and/or Portuguese venture.

90% (my estimate) low floor

Volvo BZL chassis (Swedish) - displayed today as a bare chassis and with Volgren and Express bodies. Nice enough, but why two rows of high floor at the back? I thought there must be something seriously big there to warrant such a disruption to the interior. A look at the chassis reveals nothing more than some piping which surely could be relocated. Compared to the Element and the Scania, I'd rate it a notch down. The bodies for the BZL don't have a rear window either, which is something perfectly possible on an electric bus. Good overall, but I think "90%" sums it up.

Low entry

ARCC. This is the Australian group that designed the original BYD Gemilangs. Locally built. It has an aluminium chassis to reduce weight which sounds promising. Three different-height stairs in the rear aisle - large, medium and small, good trip and fall material. The high one very difficult for someone like me to climb.

BCI. Similar, but the two main stairs are at least the same height. Somebody there must have studied architecture and the principles of good stair design. Local company, Chinese build.

BLK. Similar. Australian company, Chinese build.

Ebusco (Dutch), 2.2 model. This is only a low entry bus in RHD. The LHD models are fully low floor. Maybe the 3.0 model will bring something better in the future. Three very modest aisle stairs, same-height risers. European common sense. If we had to have a low entry bus, this would be my pick.

Foton hydrogen bus. Chinese low entry. Don't know the reason for the steps and high floor as the tanks should be on the roof.

King Long. Another Chinese low entry. Three quite hefty stairs (but at least same-height risers) and another further back. They call it an "ultra low floor" bus. Why name something the opposite of what it actually is?

Nexport. This is the long-standing BYD with Gemilang (now Nexport) body that has made some inroad into the market. Chinese chassis, local body (also by Volgren). Three hefty stairs to the back.

Yutong E12. Chinese build, been around for a few years now and established in the market. I finally found out why it has a high floor at the back, while all other E12s around the world have a flat floor. The Australian model has batteries under the floor. Three medium stairs to the rear, all same size. Probably the best of the Chinese buses on the local market, but what a pity it lost its low floor.

Thank goodness I'm at the end of that depressing list. Now for something worse.

Low entry and stepped centre door

Bustech ZDi. After many (about six) muddled years of trying and much anticipation among enthusiasts, this is an epic facepalm outcome. I honestly don't know what to think about Bustech. I'd like them to succeed with a good design, but they just don't seem to ever get it. They start off with a low floor, but the windows are too high. They lower the windows and the floor is too high. They slope the floor. They take stairs out of the aisle and put them in the centre door, which hardly anybody has done since the 1990s. This latest one has something for everyone - a sloped floor, a couple of fairly hefty stairs to the rear and a tiny, trippable stair in the centre doorway. They were even taken for a ride in an Element once and the penny still didn't drop. I officially finally give up on Bustech.

I have to say that I knew much of this was coming from seeing discussions and presentations over recent years, Bustech wanted a centred drivetrain that they could use for both diesel and electric drive, but why design your drivetrain for the type of propulsion that's being phased out rather than for the one that's coming in? ARCC also uses a centred drivetrain and I suspect some of the Chinese buses do; BYD uses hub motors which are expensive to maintain. In Europe, centred drivetrains would be found in museums. Rather than setting minimum standards, TfNSW opens the door to all these players, so we can expect the poor designs to continue to flood in. especially as Chinese buses are cheaper than locally-built ones.

I wish the quality end of the range - Custom Denning, Scania, Volvo, Ebusco and the good bodybuilders, Volgren and Express, the success they deserve.

[1whoknows]

A nice overview. Were you game enough to go upstairs on the King Long decker? Coming back down looked quite scary and I could see an older person ending up going straight down and crushing an ankle or knee. And as for the aching feet and knees - I hear you bro!

[ScaniaGrenda]

Thanks for your massive insight into full & low entry buses at this years expo Tony, I don't have much time right now to right up a proper response but my concerns are that as much as you'd love to see a 3 doored bus, I just unfortunately reckon the market here for it would be small if it could be pulled off. Carbridge and Airport shuttle buses would definitely be a good place to start with 3 door buses but their just one fish in the ocean of bus companies & operators out there.

Other problem is you've got some stuck in the past operators who despite having buses with dual leaf doors refuse to allow disembarking or boarding from them (So why not just go with a front door option only during their build unless this is some TNSW requirement I'm missing?)

[tonyp]

A nice overview. Were you game enough to go upstairs on the King Long decker? Coming back down looked quite scary and I could see an older person ending up going straight down and crushing an ankle or knee. And as for the aching feet and knees - I hear you bro!

I couldn't tackle a decker. The highest I went was the Adventurer coach. All I can say is that there must be an awful lot of fit pensioners around!

A few years back a woman fell down the stairs of a decker in Auckland and was killed. I guess the only blessing with them nowadays is that they have a stepless lower deck - but not many seats there.

Thanks for your massive insight into full & low entry buses at this years expo Tony, I don't have much time right now to right up a proper response but my concerns are that as much as you'd love to see a 3 doored bus, I just unfortunately reckon the market here for it would be small if it could be pulled off. Carbridge and Airport shuttle buses would definitely be a good place to start with 3 door buses but their just one fish in the ocean of bus companies & operators out there.

Other problem is you've got some stuck in the past operators who despite having buses with dual leaf doors refuse to allow disembarking or boarding from them (So why not just go with a front door option only during their build unless this is some TNSW requirement I'm missing?)

Thanks, I'm frustrated about my photos but a few pics are starting to appear around the traps today.

I had some good conversations with some of the manufacturer reps. Among those of the better manufacturers, there was some frustration that agencies wouldn't set decent minimum standards for low floors and doorway widths. That alone would filter out some of the rubbish, but talking to TfNSW in the past, I feel that they have absolutely no interest in that, indeed more focussed on encouraging any bus builder to have a go, no matter how poor the product.

There are a couple of other underlying issues in Australia. One is the preoccupation with maximising seating capacity (at the expense of door widths of course!). Among the operators, nobody seems to care if passenger exchange is poor (affecting on-time running of course), as long as there are seats! I can appreciate this in Australia because we have some long routes, but increasingly nowadays there are crowds and higher turnovers over shorter distances. Something is going to have to be compromised, whether the operators like it or not, but it's up to the agencies to set the standard to force the operators to follow. On the seating issue, I feel the Scania electric is at a small disadvantage because they've retained the tower from the N series at the back, costing two seats, but it's still a work in progress, so we may see further development.

Another issue is that local manufacture is suffering the labour and supply chain issues that we currently see in other industries, such a building. This means longer wait times, which places them at a disadvantage against Chinese buses which are, not only cheaper, but have access to abundant component and labour supply (maybe including slave labour, who really knows?). The fact that they typically have only a 15 year design life hasn't had time to hit home yet. This issue underpins Custom Denning's move to set up a major plant in western Sydney by 2025 where, in their words, they intend to manufacture all the components, as well as the buses.

I agree that 3 door buses (and 4 door artics), with the back door behind the rear axle, are still a dream that will have to await bulk demand, which is likely to come more from the very busy free city circulator services and high intensity routes than airports etc. At least we have a couple of manufacturers who can potentially tackle that. The rest of them treat the back of the bus like a gigantic parts bin.

[tonyp]

I've now posted the photos to illustrate my post in the Sydney/NSW photo thread:

viewtopic.php?t=92697

[rogf24]

Is the ZDi centre door step flat now at least? .

[tonyp]

Is the ZDi centre door step flat now at least? .

It now has a step with a very small riser, which is not good in a different way because small steps are a notorious trip hazard.

I forgot to include the Foton hydrogen bus, so I'll add it in my post and to the photos in the photo thread. Another substantial high floor, I don't know why in this instance, as the tanks usually go on the roof and there should be no batteries and stuff under the aisle. There's a lot of senseless stuff among these unthinking manufacturers, but they only do that because the market has no standards to incentivate them to do better. When it's for Europe, they completely upgrade their design.

[Lt. Commander Data]

One wonders what the Adelaide Scania BEV will look like after Bustech assemble a body onto it - will they work out a full low floor, or will there be a mountain to climb at the rear?

[tonyp]

One wonders what the Adelaide Scania BEV will look like after Bustech assemble a body onto it - will they work out a full low floor, or will there be a mountain to climb at the rear?

I foresee a windowline issue! The Sydney one is getting a Volgren body, they should stick to that.

Don't know if you're aware that there's a Custom Denning Element in Adelaide.

[Merc1107]

One wonders what the Adelaide Scania BEV will look like after Bustech assemble a body onto it - will they work out a full low floor, or will there be a mountain to climb at the rear?

Will there even be windows to look out of?