Railway Observations for 2022.

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boronia
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

How does this happen when you have a guard, and (usually) a platform attendant, watching the train? Auburn is a relatively straight platform.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:59 pm How does this happen when you have a guard, and (usually) a platform attendant, watching the train? Auburn is a relatively straight platform.
According to the RTBU it can't happen.
Merc1107 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:32 pm
I'd have thought train doors, like buses, have systems in place to stop them closing if there is an obstruction like an arm in the way...

Sydney Train's defence, "she was drunk!" is beyond laughable.
When they talk about early closing to control drunkedness, this is probably not what they have in mind.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Rising above the bitching about a trade union rubbish, there was a change in procedures that required despatching platform staff to be in possession of a red flag a few years ago. May have been as a result of a review in the aftermath of this incident.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Merc1107 »

Red flags and whistles, perfect for the modern railway of 1922! :lol:
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Swift »

Merc1107 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:32 pm
tonyp wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:38 pm More ammunition on the need for guards for RTBU (not):

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... a78e64b31a
I'd have thought train doors, like buses, have systems in place to stop them closing if there is an obstruction like an arm in the way...

Sydney Train's defence, "she was drunk!" is beyond laughable.
I thought NSW was a nanny state. NSW Trains is in their own time bubble.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Aurora »

Merc1107 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:32 pm
tonyp wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:38 pm More ammunition on the need for guards for RTBU (not):

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... a78e64b31a
I'd have thought train doors, like buses, have systems in place to stop them closing if there is an obstruction like an arm in the way...
Not when it is something as thin as a strap of a handbag.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:49 pm Rising above the bitching about a trade union rubbish, there was a change in procedures that required despatching platform staff to be in possession of a red flag a few years ago. May have been as a result of a review in the aftermath of this incident.
To the contrary, it proves that having a guard doesn't assure the safety of passengers, so yes, the RTBU's position is rubbish.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Nothing is 100% foolproof and cockups do happen, but a guard purely focussing on activities on platform will be more alert to events than a driver multi tasking.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Swift »

Hmmm maybe there needs to be something called personal responsibility in the equation. I felt bad about this woman's resultant maiming, but can't help noting she had most of the input into her mishap.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Stonesourscotty »

B27 is out on Penriths today think this is first time in Passenger service although did do the St Marys to Penrith test trains during lockdown last year.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Fleet Lists »

From Channel 9 Twitter:"Australia’s most famous steam train, Locomotive 3801, has just crossed the Sydney Harbour Bridge for the very first time"
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Top and tail with 8649, freshly repainted in candy livery.

3801 to cross Sydney Habour Bridge this Sunday (Transport Heritage NSW)
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by tonyp »

Did they issue respirators to passengers waiting for trains at Town Hall and Wynyard?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Closed the platforms for about 15 minutes.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by jpp42 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:28 am
Linto63 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:49 pm Rising above the bitching about a trade union rubbish, there was a change in procedures that required despatching platform staff to be in possession of a red flag a few years ago. May have been as a result of a review in the aftermath of this incident.
To the contrary, it proves that having a guard doesn't assure the safety of passengers, so yes, the RTBU's position is rubbish.
Your statement is the rubbish here. One counter-example doesn't invalidate the whole argument when you're talking about human performance. Yes, this incident proves that guards are human, and therefore not perfect, with unfortunate consequences in this case. It does not prove that a thing about all the other cases where the guard stopped such an accident from occurring. You could make a reasonable argument that the job is difficult enough that two people (station attendant and guard) failed to stop this incident, so putting the responsibility onto one person who is also the driver is putting three people's job onto one. If anything, this incident should drive home the need for additional systems precautions (door-closure sensors? platform screen doors?) to avoid human infallibilities. That's the real fix obviously, but I know will take time.

Tony, you post excellent stuff here, so please don't let ideological blinders prevent you from being factual in this case.

Also Linto, the station attendant already had a red flag and it was in fact used in this incident, as described here: https://www.wottonkearney.com.au/nsw-su ... dent-case/ (download the "case alert" PDF). The attendant signalled white initially, then red once he saw the passenger being dragged. The problem was that the guard signalled the train was ready to proceed even after the woman had been entangled in the doors.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

jpp42 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:30 pm Your statement is the rubbish here. One counter-example doesn't invalidate the whole argument when you're talking about human performance. Yes, this incident proves that guards are human, and therefore not perfect, with unfortunate consequences in this case. It does not prove that a thing about all the other cases where the guard stopped such an accident from occurring. You could make a reasonable argument that the job is difficult enough that two people (station attendant and guard) failed to stop this incident, so putting the responsibility onto one person who is also the driver is putting three people's job onto one. If anything, this incident should drive home the need for additional systems precautions (door-closure sensors? platform screen doors?) to avoid human infallibilities. That's the real fix obviously, but I know will take time.

Tony, you post excellent stuff here, so please don't let ideological blinders prevent you from being factual in this case.

Also Linto, the station attendant already had a red flag and it was in fact used in this incident, as described here: https://www.wottonkearney.com.au/nsw-su ... dent-case/ (download the "case alert" PDF). The attendant signalled white initially, then red once he saw the passenger being dragged. The problem was that the guard signalled the train was ready to proceed even after the woman had been entangled in the doors.
Thanks for the compliment! The point of my post was that the RTBU was arguing an infallible case for guards, but here was an example that it's not infallible - so their position is not watertight. These trains are still dangerous, even with guards. That's as far as I went. We're simply not getting all the facts. For example, I'd like to hear about the records of the vast majority of other commuter systems, including in Australia, that have only a driver, often only with mirrors to help them, let alone CCTV. We're not seeing the whole case, for and against. Incidentally, I've ridden both ends, talking with both drivers and guards about their jobs. My hat is doffed to them, both drivers who have to deal with the shock and guards who have to deal with the bodies. I'm also aware of the issues with curved platforms, fog etc.

If you want my own view on it, essentially the suburban system is a basket case, as a result of it being an entangled, mixed-use legacy system. It was OK for a city of 2 million, but not for 5, 8 or 10 million as it will be in the future. It also copiously bleeds money that could be better directed to hospitals, schools etc. A large portion of that money is operating costs, notably staff. I have read about experience overseas where there is something like a 50% reduction in operating costs by replacing a driver with GoA4 (driverless) automation. Add another something percent on top of that where there are two crew to replace. The issue is not about shedding jobs, it's about shedding cost - huge cost.

I don't see a way out of it other than building more/converting lines to metro, which will take many decades. In the meantime, we obviously have to make this albatross as safe as possible for its users and I don't think there's much alternative to retaining drivers, guards and station staff - but subject to seeing a detailed analysis of and revealing possible solutions from other similar operations around Australia and the world. Part of that study should include whether additional safety systems such as CCTV and platform screen doors (PSD) could be introduced. I believe that, once the whole fleet has standard door positions (post Tangara and post V set I believe?), PSDs become a viable proposition. As for the NIFs, I think it's a mistake to shut down the CCTV system, as the Auburn incident shows that there's a need for both driver and guard to have oversight of the platform, especially where the platform is a concave curve.

Will we get such an impartial consideration from the RTBU? Probably not, because it's all politics and money for them.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by jpp42 »

tonyp wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:55 pm I have read about experience overseas where there is something like a 50% reduction in operating costs by replacing a driver with GoA4 (driverless) automation.
Is that in reference to the Paris Metro? Are there any other systems (whether urban or suburban) that have successfully converted legacy to GoA4? Not saying that Paris isn't a good comparison as they have similar problems with cost of labour (and strikes etc) to Aus, but I also suspect we will manage to have an order of magnitude in higher costs to convert existing lines, as we're likely to see with the Bankstown conversion experiment.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

jpp42 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:49 pm Is that in reference to the Paris Metro? Are there any other systems (whether urban or suburban) that have successfully converted legacy to GoA4? Not saying that Paris isn't a good comparison as they have similar problems with cost of labour (and strikes etc) to Aus, but I also suspect we will manage to have an order of magnitude in higher costs to convert existing lines, as we're likely to see with the Bankstown conversion experiment.
This has been discussed elsewhere, here or another forum, I can't recall. I remember Copenhagen being mentioned as another example of a line conversion. A general overview is summarised here:

https://railsystem.net/metro-automation/
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: The point of my post was that the RTBU was arguing an infallible case for guards, but here was an example that it's not infallible - so their position is not watertight.
Anybody who took a a RTBU propaganda piece as gospel is either naive or being obtuse.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:36 pm Anybody who took a a RTBU propaganda piece as gospel is either naive or being obtuse.
It looks to me that they're arguing for a driver and a guard for safety reasons and that a train won't be safe until they're both on board. So we don't take a union at its word?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

The union has been very quiet about the dispute over the last couple of weeks.

Maybe Alex has been too busy hooning around driving 3801?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Transtopic »

Putting aside the issue of whether guards are warranted, it's still not so easy to convert a surface legacy rail network to GoA4 (Driverless) when it shares tracks or runs in parallel on multiple track pairs with other rail users such as Intercity, Regional and Freight services, as in Sydney. I don't know of any major legacy rail networks where this has yet been accomplished. Perhaps it might be one day. Converting lines in isolated tunnels is an entirely different matter. That's an easy undertaking.

Before anyone brings up the matter of the short distance of track between Chatswood and the tunnel portal to the CBD metro, or the Bankstown Line conversion, which has its own challenges and which are yet to be resolved, they are hardly applicable to a surface network wide metro conversion. The next best thing for the surface legacy network is to convert to GoA2, which can cater for all service types, including freight and heritage steam trains. That program is now in the early stages of being implemented on the T4 line and will be progressively rolled out across the whole network, as it is on numerous legacy rail systems in the world. The new Elizabeth Line (Crossrail) in London is manually controlled on its branches either side of London and has GoA2 through the city core. In the Sydney context, GoA2 may not have all of the advantages of GoA4, which realistically is only applicable to new segregated rail lines, but it still has significant benefits for the efficient operation of existing lines, in tandem with infrastructure upgrades, guards or not.

A final word to tonyp. You need to get over your continual obsession of bagging the existing Sydney Trains network as being "a basket case". It isn't. It by and large runs an efficient operation having regard to its complexity and that can be improved with further investment in upgrades to track infrastructure and the proposed GoA2 upgrade, at a fraction of the cost of converting existing lines to GoA4, for which the need is questionable anyway. While I'm at it, Sydney is not Perth, which is miniscule in comparison. Has Perth converted to GoA4 yet? A bit of realism is needed here.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Merc1107 »

I don't think anyone here is suggesting Perth emulate Sydney, or vice versa, merely that each has some better attributes that might help with operation or improving patronage.

Perth transformed its rail network from a decaying semaphore-signalled and antique diesel railcar system (although the first generation electrics are now older than the oldest diesels were!) suffering from declining utilisation to a fully electrified network with modern signalling by the early 1990s. Two new lines, tightly integrated with buses, were added within about 15yrs of one another. The turnaround in patronage from all that and gradual refinements to the buses were quite spectacular. No, they don't have driverless trains nor does it seem planned - new driver-only trains will enter service over the next few years, so driverless must be off the cards for the foreseeable future. That is but one point. There are many others already buried in this forum that needn't be rehashed.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

We are told on a fairly regular basis told that Sydney should do this or that because of what happens in Perth or Eastern Europe, or have chalk and cheese comparisons thrust upon us that ignore material reasons as to why. Transtopic's observation is a valid one.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Merc1107 »

Indeed. Yet completely dismissing what other places do better "because Sydney is bigger/older/more complicated" or alleging the comparisons are always unfair seems a cop-out too.
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