NSW Electric Bus Plan

[Fleet Lists]

What is this a bout a repaint???
The first three 5000-5002 were in electric livery while the next three 50003-5005 have been in Transport for NSW livery from day one.

I do agree that it is confusng hat they have not adopted a standard livery for all six of them.

[Swift]

Why are they so tall, there are battery packs in the ceiling? Must be top heavy if that's the case.
I wonder if these electronic buses will have to be chucked away by 10 years. Just imagine the pronounced rattles (due to absence of diesel engine) by then, with the awful roads we have?

[Merc1107]

Something tells me the Element might not fare as badly as some of the competition!

[tonyp]

One of the best features of the Element is the fantastic feeling of space and light through the whole bus because of the flat floor and high ceiling and now we have somebody wondering why the bus is so high!

References to the issue of claustrophobia and stuffy heat (hot air rises) in buses can be found back to the 1930s when it was raised as an issue in replacing spacious trams with cramped buses. Then we had the notorious "hot boxes", the first DGT underfloors of the 1950s, universally hated by passengers. Some relief came down the front with the first low-entries but these still have the claustrophobic cave up the back.

There are several overwhelming reasons for fully flat floor public transport vehicles and this is one of them. Enjoy it!

[Swift]

You sold it for me tonyp. Standee comfort will be unparalleled. There is something to be said for high ceilings. I know I do appreciate it in my home.
Forgot it was flat floor throughout. The first such product from Consumer Coaches as well as it's near silent and gearless propulsion.
Will we see a three door version?

[Stonesourscotty]

Saw all the electrics out in service yesterday for the first time majority where on the 775/6 with one heading towards Richmond direction.

Does anyone know what they have replaced at Penrith or are they extras along with 857-860?

[Linto63]

The Busabout BYD e buses have a single leaf centre door like the Punchbowl ones where I believed they where double leaf centre like the ones operating in region 6.

Transdev's Volgren bodied BYD 8190 also has a single leaf rear door. Appears there isn't a requirement for double leaf rear doors, or not when it comes to electrics. Unless it is classified as a demonstrator and circumvents the requirement that way.

[Swift]

Never acceptable. They should be requiring three entry ways if it's a proper low floor with front and centre doors full width.
The best private contractor buses ever were CDC's Volgren bodied Volvo B7RLEs with Voith transmission and full centre doors. Wish I got to ride on one.

[Linto63]

Three doors on a bus with a seated capacity of 39, a bit over the top.

[Merc1107]

As has been discussed many times over, it depends on what the usage is. For something like Perth CATs, it would be an absolute Godsend, on something like an outer-suburb feeder, probably not.

[tonyp]

As has been discussed many times over, it depends on what the usage is. For something like Perth CATs, it would be an absolute Godsend, on something like an outer-suburb feeder, probably not.

The Gong Shuttle too, if all door loading was allowed. Only the Element has the possibility of a third door among the electrics, though the Dutch Ebusco, if it hits the streets here, is another candidate. Perth's Volvo BZL appears to be a stuffed up design because it has a gearbox (IMHO totally unnecessary on an electric bus), which takes up a lot of space at the back and they've lazily used a LHD chassis even though the model is aimed at the RHD market.

[Merc1107]

... they've lazily used a LHD chassis even though the model is aimed at the RHD market.

Hardly a new problem in Perth... The Iveco (really Irisbus Citelis) artic is a conversion from LHD, which I assume is why it doesn't have more than the two doors it's got (and other reasons). But that's verging from the point here

On the plus side, the Volvo BZLs do appear to have a third wheelchair bay - which doubles as standee space when not in use. A step in the right direction, what with the wide rear doors. Need a ramp for the back doors too - it's painful to watch people in gophers and wheelchairs struggle onto the bus through the front doors, having to negotiate the sharp turn to get between the wheel-arches. As for those who insist on taking giant prams - zero sympathy, as I know of instances where they've prevented people with disabilities accessing an infrequent bus service.

[BanksfielderIdiot823]

Transdev's Volgren bodied BYD 8190 also has a single leaf rear door. Appears there isn't a requirement for double leaf rear doors, or not when it comes to electrics. Unless it is classified as a demonstrator and circumvents the requirement that way.

Yeah... except that 8190 was built for, and transferred from, the soon-to-be-defunct Transdev Melbourne; an operator which had the batch of Optimus buses that were ordered around the time that 8190 was made (2019) feature the single leaf rear door. 8186, 87 and 88 on the other hand were made much more recently for Transdev NSW and were all ordered with the double-leaf rear doors, but the operators still have the option to order otherwise, as was the case with the Gemos at Busabout and PBC.

[tonyp]

Hardly a new problem in Perth... The Iveco (really Irisbus Citelis) artic is a conversion from LHD, which I assume is why it doesn't have more than the two doors it's got (and other reasons). But that's verging from the point here

There is hope on the horizon as already a couple of European manufacturers have made the effort to swap the drivetrain over to the RHD offside. Apart from Ebusco, there is also Linkker of Finland which is now supplying three-door electric buses to Singapore.

https://unscrambled.sg/2021/08/26/new-t ... o-service/

Custom Denning has indicated that they have the flexibility to do this. I think Volvo has left itself behind the 8 ball in not swapping the drive train over for the BZL product which is specifically directed at the RHD market. It costs them a potential future Singapore order for one thing.

[Swift]

The door electrics with all door boarding, Sydney would finally catch up to the 21st century instead of a perpetual late 1990s standard. Electric traction should release them from the excuse that the mechanicals are too tightly packed in.
I don't care where the buses are from, DO IT!!

[tonyp]

The door electrics with all door boarding, Sydney would finally catch up to the 21st century instead of a perpetual late 1990s standard. Electric traction should release them from the excuse that the mechanicals are too tightly packed in.
I don't care where the buses are from, DO IT!!

The two door format will remain fine in most circumstances. What the low floor electrics can bring is to open up the possibility of more doors on buses used for high patronage, high turnover, shorter-distance services. Three doors on rigids and deckers and four doors on artics. NSW will have to bring itself in line with other states and permit all-door loading first though, in order to open up such potential.

[Swift]

Weren't you the one that pointed out the cave in the back? A flat floor alone won't change that. Many buses in Sydney run high turnover routes that would speed up with an additional door. The best bus for the task at hand should be ordered by each depot, no more one package fits all thinking.

[Linto63]

The door electrics with all door boarding, Sydney would finally catch up to the 21st century instead of a perpetual late 1990s standard. Electric traction should release them from the excuse that the mechanicals are too tightly packed in. I don't care where the buses are from, DO IT!!

It's am industrial relations issue, transitioning from diesel to electric is unlikely to bring about change.

The best bus for the task at hand should be ordered by each depot, no more one package fits all thinking.

That is the system that operates now, in so far as each operator can purchase which vehicle it likes from the approved list rather than having its new purchases prescribed. Although obviously much of its fleet will be inherited from its predecessor, so it doesn't get a say there.

[Swift]

The door electrics with all door boarding, Sydney would finally catch up to the 21st century instead of a perpetual late 1990s standard. Electric traction should release them from the excuse that the mechanicals are too tightly packed in. I don't care where the buses are from, DO IT!!

It's am industrial relations issue, transitioning from diesel to electric is unlikely to bring about change.

Shows how behind they are with changes to technology that allows safe use. Adapt or perish.

The best bus for the task at hand should be ordered by each depot, no more one package fits all thinking.

That is the system that operates now, in so far as each operator can purchase which vehicle it likes from the approved list rather than having its new purchases prescribed. Although obviously much of its fleet will be inherited from its predecessor, so it doesn't get a say there.

From a prescribed list of not very imaginative choices.

[In Transit]

The door electrics with all door boarding, Sydney would finally catch up to the 21st century instead of a perpetual late 1990s standard. Electric traction should release them from the excuse that the mechanicals are too tightly packed in. I don't care where the buses are from, DO IT!!

It's am industrial relations issue, transitioning from diesel to electric is unlikely to bring about change.

The best bus for the task at hand should be ordered by each depot, no more one package fits all thinking.

That is the system that operates now, in so far as each operator can purchase which vehicle it likes from the approved list rather than having its new purchases prescribed. Although obviously much of its fleet will be inherited from its predecessor, so it doesn't get a say there.

Unfortunately only an optimist could believe that because every operator is free to make various choices in fleet specs that the "best bus for the task at hand" is the logical result. For a start - which task? For many years private operators wished to optimise their capacity for school charters - their public transport regular passengers weren't the priority (understandably given the archaic and unfit for purpose funding model for so long).

As for all door boarding, yes it is partly an IR issue in Sydney, but the lack of vision, strategy and competency in delivery (let alone grasp of best practice elsewhere, as opposed to continually reinventing the wheel) which plagues such concepts in NSW is not an IR issue...

[Merc1107]

Even if a bus is bought to suit today's needs, what about the next ten to twenty years? There's population growth, changes of operators, sometimes swaps of buses by the overseeing Government body to even out average ages/mileage in the fleet. Timetables change and demographics evolve. Suddenly, "the best bus for X purpose in Region Y in 2022" is unfit for purpose.

So there's a need for compromise. But that shouldn't be to the exclusion of passenger and driver amenity. It shouldn't mean piecemeal orders of bus types A, B C and G, nor should it mean giving any one maker a complete hold on the bus network - which I've heard Sydney has already done at least once with unfortunate consequences for the maintenance budget.

What I think it means is a good design requirement stipulated by the Government to give a consistent experience for passengers and drivers, tenders for large orders (perhaps across several makes/models) and an assessment of the present and anticipated fleet needs to ensure you're not delivering an exclusively rigid fleet to an area of high growth, for example. Unfortunately I doubt anywhere in Australia truly gets this right. Too much political show-ponying over the fuel type, what colour the bus is painted or overzealous marketing of some silly new route concept rather than functional matters like the people who have to try and ride, drive or fix these contraptions.

[tonyp]

There's a lot to be learned from the more standardised WA bus design rulebook, but Australian states aren't very good at admitting that there's something to learn from another state and for NSW, even worse, it believes it's the Premier State, so if it wasn't thought of here (or in the worst possible alternative, London Transport), it doesn't exist. A citybus is, after all, just a citybus. It basically doesn't need variants if the minimum standard gets it right in the first place - basically just the issue of an extra door if the bus is dedicated to high traffic, high turnover work.

I've learned a lot about TfNSW's approach from recent conversations with a couple of people in this area, centring around the functional benefits of a flat (stepless) floor in modern transit and how it should be set as a minimum standard now that the technology is there to enable it. From the feedback I got, I'm left with the impression that there's a lot of indulgence given to the varying capabilities of manufacturers and the whims of different operators and if a standard is too hard for some to meet, TfNSW's answer is to slacken off the standard rather than expect the manufacturer or operator to shape up or ship out if they can't keep up with the game.

So they seem to want to please everybody in the industry, rather than setting best practice minimum standards that optimise equally the functionality, passenger experience, operation and maintenance of the bus. It's a sort of sheltered workshop approach that props up manufacturers with poor skills in bus design (looking at you particularly Bustech) and operators who don't have much nouse about functionality of buses as mass transit vehicles (too many to name there), let alone their poor passengers who have to live with the design deficiencies. Operation and maintenance get better attention of course, but that's not the core business of a transit system.

[Linto63]

Notice the most recent BYDs that Transit Systems have placed in service in region 6 carry a Nexport badge in lieu of Gemilang below the rear window. Some are also in standard TfNSW livery in lieu of the bright blue livery.

[ACM]

Saw a Transit Systems bus or two in the city to day ... Volgren optimus (or should that be optimi?) with a red H sticker on the front. Are these electric?

[Fleet Lists]

As in https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19946 ?