Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Passenger 57
Posts: 934
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Hi boxy,

I'm having a bit of trouble interpreting your announcement and reconciling it with the way I thought contactless works.

My understanding is that the contactless backend does a pre-auth (= hold) on the card when it receives the first tap-on of the day. There are no further card transactions until after the Opal day is complete, at 4am. At that point the system does an authorisation (= charge) for the total of the previous day's fares (which I suppose extends/replaces the pre-auth). As far as I can see there are only 2 points in time when the card transaction can fail: after the initial tap on and after the final tap off of the day, so if the initial pre-auth succeeds there should be no issue with tapping on or off during the day.

Is my understanding correct so far?

If the 2nd auth fails your card will be placed on the hot list and subsequent tap-ons will fail until the debt is cleared. That's different from a default fare. I'm willing to accept that one or more default fares could result from a failed pre-auth because subsequent taps would then fail but its treatment might be consistent of that of a regular prepaid Opal with insufficient funds

I'm guessing the bank you are referring to does not allow the pre-auth to be extended by the subsequent auth. The one bank whose sweep facility I have some knowledge of, does not do on-demand sweeps for scheme debit transactions and only allows a single authorisation for these to be outstanding before the nightly sweep that adjusts balances. My guess is that the pre-auth does not trigger a sweep, so the final authorisation fails. I don't know whether that bank waits until the transaction is processed/settled(?) to do a sweep as card transactions display as pending authorisations with some institutions before they appear on a statement.
boxythingy wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:54 pm For a "smart"card system, this occurrence is clumsy and non-user friendly.
Are you criticising the bank's or TfNSW's system or the "entire user experience." The bank I am referring above states in their FAQ that on-demand sweeps do not apply to "Credit" transactions. It would be better of course if all banks allowed "Credit" transactions from their Savings accounts but in my opinion sweep functionality with some limitations is preferable to having to manually "sweep" funds.
moa999
Posts: 2923
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »

Hadn't used my very early Opal card in a few weeks, but got triple beeps and a Card expiry and date message today.
Text small and disappears quickly.

Interestingly neither the Opal Travel app nor the website gives any indication that the card will expire soon.

Guess it's time to pick up a new one and do balance transfer.
It's still in good condition as it lives in a flap in my wallet behind my driver's licence.


User avatar
boxythingy
Posts: 3891
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything not 'B-set' w/problms

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

no-reply@opalconnect.transportnsw.info Important news about your Opal digital card wrote:
Thank you for being part of the 12-month Opal digital card trial. The trial is now closing.

The trial has been a great success and provided us with insight into the customer benefits and convenience of a digital Opal card. These insights will be used to shape the future experience for people travelling on the transport network.

What do I need to do?
Nothing. We will automatically close your Opal digital card account on 12 December 2021 and refund any outstanding balance to you within 10 business days.

Your Opal digital card balance
Any remaining balance on your Opal digital card will be transferred back to the payment method you use to top up your Opal digital card.

What happens next?
From 12 December 2021 you will no longer be able to:

Tap on and tap off on public transport using your Opal digital card;
Top up your Opal digital card or;
Use the Opal digital card app.
You will still be able to access your trip history by logging in to your Opal Connect account.

Continue paying for your travel with your digital wallet
You can continue to pay for travel on public transport using your phone or watch to tap on or tap off at Opal readers if you’ve linked your American Express, Mastercard or Visa credit or debit card to a digital wallet. You can also tap on and tap off with a physical contactless-enabled American Express, Mastercard or Visa credit or debit card.

Just remember to always tap with the same card or linked device at the beginning and end of every trip to ensure you are charged the correct fare and to receive your travel benefits.

If you prefer to travel with a physical Opal card, you can get one from an Opal retailer or order one online.

More information
You can visit transportnsw.info and read the FAQs here.

We’d like to thank you for taking part in the Opal digital card trial and helping us to improve our transport system and products. Transport for NSW is always trying to further improve the ticketing experience for our customers, so keep an eye out for new trials and products in the future.

If you have feedback about the trial we’d love to hear from you. You can submit feedback via “Request help” in the Opal digital app by 12 December 2021.


Regards,
Transport for NSW

The Opal Digital Card is issued on behalf of Transport for New South Wales by EML Payment Solutions Limited ABN 30 131 436 532 and will be provisioned into a Mobile Wallet on a Mobile Device. The Opal Digital Card is managed by Mastercard Prepaid Management Services Australia Pty Ltd ABN 47 145 452 044. Please read the full terms and conditions for the Opal Digital Card available at transportnsw.info/opal-digital-terms. Cardholders will also be required to accept the relevant terms and conditions relating to Apple Pay or Samsung Pay, available at transportnsw.info/opal-digital-terms-conditions.
To be honest, I never actually used it because auto top up was mandatory and I had already switched to a non Samsung device by then
Frodo
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Frodo »

Today, my opal card was checked twice by transport officers. I use my phone (google pay) for public transport now and this was the first time my card has been checked since I started using my phone instead of a physical opal card.
Both times, the transport officers' devices was unable to recognise my device as being tapped on, even after I had opened up google pay and made sure to select the default card which was used to tap on.

They didn't take any further action as the google pay history shows the public transport tap on/off, but my concern is if this keeps on happening, eventually someone may decide to issue me a fine and I will have to go through the trouble of contesting it. Is this a common issue or just me?
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Does it confirm in any way that payment got through? When you're paying a fare, you're also paying for documentation that your are entitled to travel. If they take your money but the system doesn't give you the proof in return, THEY are stealing your money. That needs to be fixed or suspend that method of payment until they do. You need to take it up with them.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
moa999
Posts: 2923
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »

That's the issue with tacking on a contactless system to a system designed for Card is King and non-realtime communications.

With the Opal cards the tap-on is written onto the cards and can be easily checked, even if there is no mobile reception for the RPO units.

With contactless. Your card number is stored in the reader, and then sent to the backend, which may not happen immediately. If the RPO has mobile reception they can check but there can be delays.

As I understood the thought was RPOs would take you at your word that you had tapped on, but when everything synced at the end of the night, if no journey had been recorded on that card, then they would issue a fine.

One of the reasons (along with immediate fare feedback which helps you catch any issues) while I'll keep using a real card.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by jpp42 »

Frodo wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:14 am They didn't take any further action as the google pay history shows the public transport tap on/off, but my concern is if this keeps on happening, eventually someone may decide to issue me a fine and I will have to go through the trouble of contesting it. Is this a common issue or just me?
They won't actually issue you a fine - they may take your details and give you a hassle about it, but the fine will only be issued IF it's found after daily reconciliation that you didn't tap on. So there should be nothing to contest/worry in this case.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

jpp42 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:38 am
They won't actually issue you a fine - they may take your details and give you a hassle about it, but the fine will only be issued IF it's found after daily reconciliation that you didn't tap on. So there should be nothing to contest/worry in this case.
What confirmation do you get that the payment went through when you tap on? I think it's a nuisance when you accidentally have your debit card read instead of opal. It forces me to take our my Opal card each time I tap.
One person's convenience usurps another's. This, as usual, wasn't thought through. Not enough thought goes into most things done in Sydney.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Passenger 57
Posts: 934
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Swift wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:25 am What confirmation do you get that the payment went through when you tap on?
None. Only that your tap is recorded. No payment is charged until the next day. When you first tap reaches the back-end though it will do a pre-auth. If that fails your card will be put on a black list and you will get feedback when the readers learn of it. An RPO will also be able to give you feedback on this depending on when they synced with the system.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Passenger 57 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:39 am
Swift wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:25 am What confirmation do you get that the payment went through when you tap on?
None. Only that your tap is recorded. No payment is charged until the next day. When you first tap reaches the back-end though it will do a pre-auth. If that fails your card will be put on a black list and you will get feedback when the readers learn of it. An RPO will also be able to give you feedback on this depending on when they synced with the system.
Why would anyone want this as their method? Too many down sides, not the least being the lack of a sense of keeping track.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
matthewg
Posts: 1704
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

The London method with contactless (and we bought their software) is for the RPO's terminal to simply record the card number. If the backend subsequently finds that the presented card doesn't have a tap on associated with it at the time it was scanned, the charge a 'penalty fare' to the card.
Presumably, Sydney tried to make use of better comms to have the RPO's terminal show in near real-time that the card had been presented for tap on, but the system was never designed for that sort of real-time data flow so it won't always have the latest data. The RPO's should be appropriately trained not to immediately assume a contactless card presented with no tap on is immediately a fare-evade, it's way more likely to be a comms delay.
Passenger 57
Posts: 934
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Swift wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:38 am Why would anyone want this as their method? Too many down sides, not the least being the lack of a sense of keeping track.
To have fast tap times you need to use an offline method. So I think they would be using an offline authorisation for $0 though it might well be possible to just read the card number without needing it to authorise anything. Someone here can probably tell me.

The reason why transit providers want to go down this route is that it allegedly lowers card issuing costs. Apart from supporting the occasional traveller an important benefit is that readers trust cards by default and there is no need for an online payment to be relayed to all readers if the card remains in good standing. The only other way to eliminate that delay with a stored value card or cards where the ticket is stored on the card is to allow the card to be updated over the net which some systems like Octopus have chosen to do requiring the customer to purchase NFC capable hardware to update their card. More recently some systems are providing apps that emulate their stored value card to run on devices with NFC. That surprises me given the apparent potential for compromise. Mobile Myki is an example of that.

Given the costs involved in having to maintain two payment systems it seems inevitable to me that Opal as a stored value card will be phased out. The Opal Digital card is a necessary step on the way to that so I was somewhat surprised to learn that the trial would end short of a full roll out. Perhaps, we can't allow ourselves to be ahead of the mother country who are making little obvious progress on their progression to an account-based system. Oyster is still needed for concession card holders and Travelcards.
matthewg
Posts: 1704
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Passenger 57 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:04 am Perhaps, we can't allow ourselves to be ahead of the mother country who are making little obvious progress on their progression to an account-based system. Oyster is still needed for concession card holders and Travelcards.
In London, PAYG Oyster is dying out rapidly, taken over by contactless big time. Actual Oyster card users have passes or are concessions. Presumably having pretty well wiped out Adult PAYG fares and cards, the issuing costs for Oyster concession and passes isn't painful enough for them to invest in the next step.
Passenger 57
Posts: 934
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Maintaining a system for a small number of users wouldn't be economic either.

Anyway searching through the TFL site for documents containing the word contactless it appears they have more pressing priorities. I found this reference in the Transport for London investment programme report Extended Quarter 1 2020/21 (1 April 2020 – 1 August 2020):
On 20 April, we introduced daily and weekly capping for customers using contactless pay as you go on train services to Reading, Luton Airport Parkway and Welwyn Garden City. This has been a complex project involving changes to how contactless fares are calculated and significant changes to the systems which support revenue allocation. The complexity of the requirements from the Train Operating Companies, meant that it was not possible to deliver this at the same time as pay as you go was introduced in January. However, in the interim, our Data and Analytics team has been providing refunds to customers who spent more than the daily cap.
Last edited by Passenger 57 on Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Merc1107
Posts: 2243
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Favourite Vehicle: MAN 18.310, MB O405NH, L94
Location: A Coastal City

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

Surely it all effectively does the same thing in the back end? Those cards are hardly likely to be anything expensive or unique either - and in any case the cost is built into fares (or you have to pay for a card in some places!).

As someone who only keeps a debit card (I assume the PayPass cards that are not Debit Mastercard are not permitted to be used) for online purchases, it would be somewhat annoying having to keep an eye on that balance lest you're caught out. At least with many common tapcards, you can autoload, or failing that recharge with cards/cash.
Passenger 57
Posts: 934
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

Merc1107 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:16 pm Surely it all effectively does the same thing in the back end? Those cards are hardly likely to be anything expensive or unique either - and in any case the cost is built into fares (or you have to pay for a card in some places!).
Quite different. With a stored value card the application of credits and debits is done at the front end, readers and top up machines, directly to the cards themselves. The back end tries to record trips and balances from the machines and retailers but its no biggie if it loses some of this information. It also interfaces with users for on-line recharges, with the readers and financial institutions for value loads and instructs the machines about credit to be loaded. The transport authority has to cover all the card issuing costs.

With contactless, at least the intra-day accounting is done at the back end and its critical that all the records concerning tap-on and tap-offs are received in order for customers to be correctly charged. By default cards are trusted and checked for minimum funds only after the customer has tapped on. For open-loop cards funds are requested daily. Customer deal with whatever financial institution issued their card to "top up". In the case of funds owing customer may need to deal with the transit authority to repay those funds and have their card removed from reader "black lists".
As someone who only keeps a debit card (I assume the PayPass cards that are not Debit Mastercard are not permitted to be used) for online purchases,
I don't think there is anything in principle stopping contactless EFTPOS cards being used but Opal only supports 'scheme' cards for now. Some banks only issue 'scheme' cards. Some of these can't be used for EFTPOS at all it seems.
it would be somewhat annoying having to keep an eye on that balance lest you're caught out.
Yes, I can understand that if your preference is to deal with cash and the lack of account balances from readers will be an issue.
At least with many common tapcards, you can autoload, or failing that recharge with cards/cash.
If you're happy with autoload there is no real difference in using the card that is linked to the account vs. a stored value card linked to the account other than you are giving the transit authority the cash float. As for reloading, in-person top ups are admittedly a bit more challenging with cards issued by typical financial institutions. I assume cash deposits at ATMs still need to be verified by a teller before funds are cleared and banks aren't generally happy to accept cards from another institution for deposits. Online at least, recharging by a card is equivalent to transferring funds between accounts and the NPP and the Beem It app have sped these up. It's quite likely though that TfNSW will (co-)issue an EMV conformant card that will be cater for those who are not eligible for a scheme card or chose not to use one. Opal Digital is a virtual example of this. While this will quite likely be able to be recharged via top machines it remains to be seen whether ePay Australia a member of the Opal consortium which currently provides the facilities for recharges at various retailers will participate.
Frodo
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Frodo »

moa999 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:31 am As I understood the thought was RPOs would take you at your word that you had tapped on, but when everything synced at the end of the night, if no journey had been recorded on that card, then they would issue a fine.

One of the reasons (along with immediate fare feedback which helps you catch any issues) while I'll keep using a real card.
Wonder why they kept trying to scan my card then if they know it wouldn't read on their devices. I would have thought that there are plenty of people using contactless tap on/off so it would be a common issue for the transit officers.

I will keep using contactless as it is a much more convenient method for me even taking into account the downside of not getting immediate confirmation. Although if I go into google pay, there is an activity called 'public transport' for each tap on/tap off, along with a pre-authorisation amount of $1 shortly after the first tap of the day.
I guess this should be sufficient for transport officers not to bother taking down my details to check later on.
User avatar
boxythingy
Posts: 3891
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything not 'B-set' w/problms

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

I would just ask them to call the police so they can help them clarify your claims
sunnyyan
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:39 pm
Favourite Vehicle: MB OC500LE CC CB60 CNG

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by sunnyyan »

Frodo wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:28 am
moa999 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:31 am As I understood the thought was RPOs would take you at your word that you had tapped on, but when everything synced at the end of the night, if no journey had been recorded on that card, then they would issue a fine.

One of the reasons (along with immediate fare feedback which helps you catch any issues) while I'll keep using a real card.
Wonder why they kept trying to scan my card then if they know it wouldn't read on their devices. I would have thought that there are plenty of people using contactless tap on/off so it would be a common issue for the transit officers.

I will keep using contactless as it is a much more convenient method for me even taking into account the downside of not getting immediate confirmation. Although if I go into google pay, there is an activity called 'public transport' for each tap on/tap off, along with a pre-authorisation amount of $1 shortly after the first tap of the day.
I guess this should be sufficient for transport officers not to bother taking down my details to check later on.
The card should still scan and show no tap on if it was a communications issue. If it didn't scan at all, it's probably just the NFC playing up on the phone - it can be quite finicky.
User avatar
boxythingy
Posts: 3891
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:48 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything not 'B-set' w/problms

Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Saw a sign at Dulwich Hill saying fare rises in line with inflation expectations July. No year, 2021 or 2022 or 20COVIDHBSJKANSJKB?
User avatar
RayW
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:36 am
Favourite Vehicle: 327 Holden Monaro GTS

Opal Card and the Buses/Trains

Post by RayW »

Does anyone else have this issue with the Opal card?

So often when you catch a bus (anywhere), the card reader isn't working; or even if you tap on, its not working at the end of your journey. So the loss is on you. Or, the reader isn't working at all either way, so the loss is on the State. I wonder just how much they are losing?

The other issue I see is at stations that don't have barriers. If for example you catch a train at Clyde and travel to Regents Park, it is purely an honesty system for you to tap on and off. Daily I see people who don't bother at all, and Sydney Trains complain they are losing money? It isn't hard to see why.
"Technology, a trap to enslave us all."

"Press the button Max!"
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Opal Card and the Buses/Trains

Post by boronia »

Sydney Trains and bus operators don't get revenue from Opal cards, it goes straight to TfNSW. TfNSW pays the operators for the services, regardless.

Yes, there is a loss of revenue from systematic fare evasion, but there doesn't seem to be much concern from the government to police it aggressively.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
RayW
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:36 am
Favourite Vehicle: 327 Holden Monaro GTS

Re: Opal Card and the Buses/Trains

Post by RayW »

boronia wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:25 am Sydney Trains and bus operators don't get revenue from Opal cards, it goes straight to TfNSW. TfNSW pays the operators for the services, regardless.

Yes, there is a loss of revenue from systematic fare evasion, but there doesn't seem to be much concern from the government to police it aggressively.
Yes I know. I think what it seems to be to me, is that during this Covid thing, they're turning a blind eye. Two years ago I'd see ticket inspectors on a regular basis. Now I rarely see them.
"Technology, a trap to enslave us all."

"Press the button Max!"
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Opal Card and the Buses/Trains

Post by jpp42 »

I've only ridden the trains about 3 times in the past 2 months and twice had my ticket inspected. Most recently this weekend on an all stops Central to Homebush - inspectors boarded at Redfern.
User avatar
RayW
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:36 am
Favourite Vehicle: 327 Holden Monaro GTS

Re: Opal Card and the Buses/Trains

Post by RayW »

jpp42 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:40 am I've only ridden the trains about 3 times in the past 2 months and twice had my ticket inspected. Most recently this weekend on an all stops Central to Homebush - inspectors boarded at Redfern.
You've been lucky then, or unlucky depending on which way you look at it.
"Technology, a trap to enslave us all."

"Press the button Max!"
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”