New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

[boronia]

Some services were to terminate in Todman Ave, and IIRC the L94 was to go to Edgecliff. The Xs were to continue running, hence the shared path.

[swtt]

Wasn't Todman Avenue Kensington one of the major terminating locations?

But the since the original EIS so much has changed.

[boronia]

As the only dedicated bus exits from the tram lines are at Allison Rd northbound and Juniors southbound, I get the impression that services like 400 will not be able to use the interchange, and will continue direct along the normal roadway?

[Qantas94Heavy]

400 will be using the interchange. In fact from next week it'll be the first and only bus to be using the interchange (for now).

Southbound buses can directly enter the interchange from the Anzac Pde roadway using the right turn lane (the one to Bunnerong Rd).
As mentioned above, northbound buses can exit where there's the broken white lines. 400 northbound will exit just after Borrodale Road to access kerbside stops.

[J_Busworth]

As the only dedicated bus exits from the tram lines are at Allison Rd northbound and Juniors southbound, I get the impression that services like 400 will not be able to use the interchange, and will continue direct along the normal roadway?

Quite the contrary, ONLY the 400 will be using the Interchange.

At this stage there are no plans for any of the other services to actually use the Interchange or run along the tram tracks and there has even been some suggestion (albeit from rumour mill) that the slip lane out at Alison Road Northbound may be removed in favour of an extra general traffic lane. I guess all will be revealed at some point, well after due course has run its course.

[tonyp]

Southbound buses can directly enter the interchange from the Anzac Pde roadway using the right turn lane (the one to Bunnerong Rd).
As mentioned above, northbound buses can exit where there's the broken white lines. 400 northbound will exit just after Borrodale Road to access kerbside stops.

I guess I missed that third option for southbound buses to enter the interchange. Odds are they'll favour that option since there is a light phase to protect it from the tram. Which makes the break in the berm north of Kingsford stop a bit unnecessary.

There is also the issue of whether buses to and from the south should continue past the university so that university patronage from the south doesn't have to change to a tram (or 400) to complete the final short distance. In this case, buses would have a more difficult time turning around, like via High and Botany Sts. All will be revealed.

[stupid_girl]

As Tess1988 has already suggested, it's obvious that the buses can't escape the tramway at Nineways and they're held in it by a berm (and another divider in the middle) until Borrodale Rd intersection, after which the berm is replaced by a painted dashed line that extends all the way to the head of the Kingsford stop where the dividing berm commences again. This would give buses ample opportunity to use the left indicator and move from the tramway to the next lane. The one casualty in this is that the bus stop before Borrodale would no longer be able to be used.

Heading south, the break in the berm appears to be at Strachan St, just north of the Kingsford stop. The Borrodale intersection is another and last opportunity for a bus to enter the tramway before the interchange. Looking through Streetview I see no sign of those micromanagement bus/tram lights you see on Alison Rd to stop trams and buses from driving into each other on a merge. Drivers might actually be trusted to use their eyes and mirrors like they do on any other bus/tram interaction anywhere else in the world. Nanny must have fallen asleep on this part of the job.

As in the other direction, the southbound bus stop outside Blooms would not be able to be accessed.

There is a four-light signal at the northern end of the interchange which may be a bus-tram merge signal - i.e. a red and green T at the top and a red and green B at the bottom. Has anybody seen the signal in operation?

The odd thing in all this is that, if they are intending to terminate buses at the interchange, there is absolutely nowhere for buses to easily turn around and head back south (e.g. a roundabout). What were they thinking?

>>The one casualty in this is that the bus stop before Borrodale would no longer be able to be used.

I think this is the main reason why other routes do not enter the interchange. Obviously, the current bus stop is more convenient for local access.

[boronia]

>>The one casualty in this is that the bus stop before Borrodale would no longer be able to be used.

I think this is the main reason why other routes do not enter the interchange. Obviously, the current bus stop is more convenient for local access.

Does the 400 stop at Borrodale Rd?

[stupid_girl]

>>The one casualty in this is that the bus stop before Borrodale would no longer be able to be used.

I think this is the main reason why other routes do not enter the interchange. Obviously, the current bus stop is more convenient for local access.

Does the 400 stop at Borrodale Rd?

39x stops at Nine Ways bus stand, which is closer to the old roundabout.

400 stops at Strachan Street, which is further up Anzac Parade northbound.

[tonyp]

So, to cut a long story short, Kingsford shopping centre and its surrounding residents are to have all their northbound public transport stops removed except at the outer extremities of the centre - Juniors interchange to the south (crossing a couple of busy roads to access) and the Kingsford tram stop and Strachan St bus stops way to the north. What a masterpiece of public transport design.

[swtt]

But here's exactly the problem with urban planning in Sydney: with densities increasing and road space at a premium, we continue to dedicate road space and to bus stops (worse still, parking!) etc instead of having them indented or out of the way.

Juniors Kingsford interchange, whilst inconvenient, is probably a step in the right direction in moving the stationary buses off the road and clumping them together so that interchange can happen.

It's always give and take. This change is hard to make but also the right one to make.

[boronia]

So, to cut a long story short, Kingsford shopping centre and its surrounding residents are to have all their northbound public transport stops removed except at the outer extremities of the centre - Juniors interchange to the south (crossing a couple of busy roads to access) and the Kingsford tram stop and Strachan St bus stops way to the north. What a masterpiece of public transport design.

But the bus stops have traditionally been at the southern extremity of the strip, right at Nineways, southbound services still are with the previous stop at Barker St. Current shops and residential extends the full length of that strip, so central stop locations make more sense? There is a lot of residential in the streets to the west and east of this strip, not just on Anzac Pde.

[Qantas94Heavy]

The (future) inbound bus stop at Juniors interchange shows services to
CITY
BONDI JUNCTION
COOGEE
EASTLAKES

Now what I'm curious about is the 'Eastlakes' destination. It certainly doesn't seem easy to get to Eastlakes from the interchange. You can't turn left straight from the interchange, so either it's diverting via some of the narrow Kingsford back streets to get there or it's some long 'around the world' route that just happens to end up at Eastlakes. Unless I'm missing something?

[J_Busworth]

With the changes to the 400 and 400N from last night, new signs have been erected at the Juniors Kingsford Interchange. They remove any and all reference to the previously proposed destinations and now only make reference to the services that actually stop there.

Inbound
400 BONDI JUNCTION
400N BONDI JUNCTION

Outbound
400 SYDNEY AIRPORT
400N EASTGARDENS

1924 operated the first services, with the driver being slightly unsure of how to exit the interchange on his return to Bondi. He eventually worked out that he needed to proceed past the following intersection then merge with traffic.

[boronia]

While it has been reported that eastbound services have reverted from Barker St to High St, I don't think that included west bound services are now operating via Arthur, Clara, and High Sts again. The stop in Arthur St has been closed.

[marcnut1996]

Well, https://transportnsw.info/news/2020/bus ... t#homepage explicity says "Route will operate via High St, Clara St and Arthur St in both directions".

[Qantas94Heavy]

So to see what the network would look like, I tried to see what would happen if we take the 'leaked' service plan at face value and add a few educated guesses here and there:

Routes we definitely know:
390 - Coogee to La Perouse (372 route to Alison Rd, Botany St, High St, Anzac Pde)
338/339/343/357/372/418 - no changes

Routes shown on the leaked slides but not exact details:
391 - terminate at Kingsford (Dacey Gardens)
The original EIS plan was to run everything to Todman Ave, so passengers could have a one seat ride to UNSW.
However, given low patronage, they'll probably try to make do with only two buses running during off-peak. Most other passengers can use route 392.

392 - Little Bay to Green Square/Redfern via Eastgardens (via Todman/O'Dea/Joynton Ave)
In theory it could follow the X93 route, but the Zetland-Kingsford corridor is more in need of capacity.
Lenthall St is faster than O'Dea, but they're not changing 370 and they'll need extra services to cover the loss of 302 (and probably 303) along this segment.

319 - Maroubra Beach to Bondi Junction via Randwick Junction
The route number gives an obvious suggestion that it'll run to Bondi Junction, and we know it'll use the 376/377 route to Maroubra Beach.
Only question is whether it'll continue to Eastgardens or not (like current 317). I think it's unlikely though (see route 307).

375 - Coogee to Railway Square via Taylor Square (via Oberon St)
I think it's most likely to travel via Oberon St, as 372/374 still go to the city.
The other option is Coogee Bay Rd but they don't have a direct city service anyway.
They're not reusing the 377 route number because the bus won't go to Maroubra Beach.

Probable guesses:
313 - terminate at Randwick Jn instead of Coogee (existing route to Carr St, 372 route to Belmore Rd)
This would reinforce Randwick Jn as the interchange centre and better reduce lost coverage.
At first I thought this would just be a very small reroute via Byron St instead of Mount St, but they probably wouldn't bother listing 313 as changed if it's so minor.

316 - minor reroute via Storey/Flower St
Replaces lost 317 coverage. Residents along Garden St will still be < 300 m away from a bus stop.

374 - terminate at Railway Sq instead of Circular Quay

348/370/400: change to run via High St instead of Barker St

396 - terminate at Railway Sq via Taylor Sq instead of Circular Quay
Given that they seem to care about maintaining access to Taylor Square, they'll probably do something similar to route 375 but from the Kingsford direction instead.

Complete guesses:
303 - terminates at UNSW (Day Ave?)
The Mascot shops - UNSW remains important. However other links along the northern part of the route are already served well by other routes.
If 398 does end up covering Day Ave, we could see 303 changed to run along Anzac Pde in Kingsford instead.

307 - detour via Anzac Pde/Beauchamp Rd instead of Denison St
This will replace coverage provided by the 317 along Beauchamp Rd, given that part has low ridership.
This is a bit of a detour, but southbound it shouldn't be too bad as it avoids the loop around Eastgardens.

398 - Little Bay to Eastlakes via Malabar & West Kingsford (399 route, Malabar Rd, Mons Ave, 397 route, Day Ave)
Apparently there'll be a bus to Eastlakes(!?) from the Juniors interchange. As buses can't turn directly from the interchange to Gardeners Rd, I suspect they'll use this route to cover the West Kingsford area. They'll probably also use this route to replace 397/399 lost coverage.

[J_Busworth]

I wouldn't be willing to put any money on anything from the leaked plan actually being introduced. They seemed a bit spooked by the immediate swift backlash from the leaked plan and on last check, have promised actual community consultation on any changes before they occur. I don't expect them to pull out too many big changes, as I dont think there is the appetite for it within the Government, within Transport and within the community.

I still expect them to use Kensington as a turnaround point. I just can't see them turning around buses elsewhere or being more creative with route planning like Qantas94Heavy has suggested.

I wouldn't expect Route 313 to change in the way Qantas94Heavy has suggested at all. If anything, I'd expect Route 314 to be cut completely and for Route 313 to pick up its slack as the main Coogee to Bondi Junction run. Route as current from Coogee Beach to Albion Street, then follow the current 314 route into Bondi Junction. Coogee to Randwick Junction and Randwick Junction to Bondi Junction are already covered by highly frequent routes and the 314 route goes out of the way for people travelling from Coogee to Bondi Junction.

I think Qantas94Heavy's proposed 316 is very likely if the 317 was to be replaced by the 319, which I would expect to follow the 317 route from Maroubra Beach to Eastgardens. I also particularly like the 392 idea proposed, and can see that being implemented.

I expect a two routes from both Coogee and Maroubra Beaches to Railway Square, one via Oxford Street and one via Cleveland Street each. I also think the Coogee to La Perouse 390 will come to existence in the proposed form.

I guess its very much a wait and see kinda thing.

[Fleet Lists]

Yes very much a matter of wait and see.

It could well be left until after the new operator has taken over if the privatisation goes ahead.

[rogf24]

With travel times like the light rail, the government will have to be extra brave to replace buses beyond the suggestions in the other post. Maybe when the light rail is extended they might consider a new network but not now. That said, there are still opportunities to rationalise routes that should have been done when Opal for introduced and even less excuse with light rail. But big changes, unlikely.

[boronia]

I can't see any extensions happening any time soon.

Extending it won't make the overall trip any quicker.

[tonyp]

I can't see any extensions happening any time soon.

Extending it won't make the overall trip any quicker.

It's like those occasional public appeals to extend the south coast line across the Shoalhaven River and beyond down the coast. Why would you want to prolong even further the existing agony when there are alternatives that will do it much quicker? The only reason for extending L3 to Maroubra Jct is to connect with the proposed SE metro. With a bus interchange already established at Kingsford, it is pointless to create another one at Maroubra Jct. I would have liked to see CSELR extend to Coogee and Maroubra Beach, but with the running times as they are it would be completely pointless.

The buses do need to keeping running past UNSW so commuters to that destination from the SE don't have a pointless interchange just short of their destination. Beyond that, the buses might as well keep running to wherever it's viable as there's nowhere that's very well laid out to turn them around. I think the events loop in Moore Park would be a good place if there was an interchange with Moore Park light rail stop, but there isn't, so that idea won't work. The details of the whole project were so poorly thought through.

[rogf24]

Yes, sorry. I don't know why I typed in light rail when I meant metro. Speaking of the metro to SE though, this has come out recently. https://t.co/TRzRpPkJVq?amp=1

[Fleet Lists]

Certainly new - dated August 2020.

[tonyp]

Yes, sorry. I don't know why I typed in light rail when I meant metro. Speaking of the metro to SE though, this has come out recently. https://t.co/TRzRpPkJVq?amp=1

Good find and I wonder why I haven't seen an announcement. It does give more detail to and confirms the metro lines put forward in the original "Transport Future" report. With its focus on Randwick as a strategic centre, it suggests a bit of recognition that the light rail isn't doing the job it's supposed to and the metro (Central via Green Square) would likely become the favoured faster mode to UNSW. There is no suggestion in the plan of extending the light rail to Maroubra Jct.

It's a pity that they can't get a metro line past Moore Park and the racecourse because the tram is certainly unable to do the job of its second generation predecessor and shift a stadium crowd of 60,000+ out in an hour - but it's a choice of sports venues or Green Square and the case for the latter is better. I wish they wouldn't try to tackle the "rapid bus" idea until they can commit themselves to getting more artics and introduce all-door loading so that they can get better productivity. If they do neither, which is likely the way things are, it will fall very short. Better to get in a metro line anywhere there's a need for a high-performance bus route. They need to focus on what they've proven to be able to do best: trains and ferries.