Next generation railcars for Transperth

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tonyp
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by tonyp »

I note that they say "up to" four doors per car, so they apparently haven't fully decided on this.

At four doors, which is more typical of a metro rather than suburban train, it starts becoming a challenge to seating capacity. I'd say that it's only thanks to Perth's super-fast journey times that they could sustain an argument for such a high door ratio. At least the dwell times will be like lightning, but they could still get a good improvement out of three doors.

Next step along these lines should be fully low-floor buses with more doors for the busiest services!
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Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by TP1462 »

tonyp wrote:I note that they say "up to" four doors per car, so they apparently haven't fully decided on this.

At four doors, which is more typical of a metro rather than suburban train, it starts becoming a challenge to seating capacity. I'd say that it's only thanks to Perth's super-fast journey times that they could sustain an argument for such a high door ratio. At least the dwell times will be like lightning, but they could still get a good improvement out of three doors.

Next step along these lines should be fully low-floor buses with more doors for the busiest services!
the 4 doors per carriage was something that was pointed out by the previous government before they deferred the project it seems as though the new labor government are just re-initiating the project and working with all planning that PTA has done thus far, seating capacity is really a non issue as part of the transport plan includes for automatic train control which will allow for trains to run closer together, the C series will be ideal for special events to and from the new stadium and the B series are due for a "midlife' refurb and apart of that plan includes to reconfigure the seating mainly for heritage line work and bench seating does seem to be preferred by PTA
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by tonyp »

It looks like they've settled on 3 doors per side per car:

Image

Probably adequate for Perth. Four doors would be more the thing for the likes of the Sydney metro, so it'll be interesting to see how that goes with three doors.

The above document was on Facebook but I can't find the original source of the whole document.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Merc1107 »

Great to see they're looking for speeds of "at least" 130km/h.
With the distance from north to south increasing, some modest bumps in average speed would be a good way to entice more patrons, particularly off peak where congestion isn't such an issue (except Cockburn's notorious bottleneck).
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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tonyp wrote:
The above document was on Facebook but I can't find the original source of the whole document.
You'll find it here (as a pdf) which is at the bottom of this page

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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by the c man »

Bombardier have won the contract to build the new csets trains
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Next generation railcars for Transperth

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the c man wrote:Bombardier have won the contract to build the new csets trains
Not quite if you’re referring to the link on their website it’s strictly a place holder which is purely for their investors and all information regarding the B series has been removed from that website link having said all of that it still requires the minister and PTA to formally announce it, it was more than likely always going to be Downer Bombardier JV straight from the outset they have the best experience with the previous 2 fleets and best knowledge of the local supply chain which gives them a big leg up over the other proponents especially when it comes to the 50% local content quota


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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The contract has surprisingly been awarded to ALSTOM people will have their own opinions on the design, due to size restrictions on this website I can’t upload an image of the artists impression


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Bus Suggestions »

Image
Not the result I was hoping for after 5 years of anticipation. Was expecting either something similar to Brisbane's new NGR trains or the Adelaide A-City 4000-Class EMUs. Too bulky for my liking.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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Bus Suggestions wrote:Not the result I was hoping for after 5 years of anticipation. Was expecting either something similar to Brisbane's new NGR trains or the Adelaide A-City 4000-Class EMUs. Too bulky for my liking.
This was the result I expected after the debacles experienced with QLD's latest acquisitions.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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Looks to be a modified version of the existing X’trap fleet that’s already running in Melbourne


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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It’ll be interesting which version of the Coradia PTA decide on for the Australind replacement giving they now have access to different propulsion methods outside of diesel including dual mode, steam and fuel cell hydrogen iLint that’s currently operating out of Germany the potential for more environmentally friendly cleaner solutions is there now


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by tonyp »

In the image of the C series train above, it appears to have lateral seating rather than the longitudinal now pretty standard in Perth. Is this just artistic licence or a reversal of the previous trend? A lot of people don't like riding backwards so that would be a retrograde step. Longitudinal is a good compromise as well as providing more standing space.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote:Is this just artistic licence or a reversal of the previous trend? A lot of people don't like riding backwards so that would be a retrograde step. Longitudinal is a good compromise as well as providing more standing space.
Pretty sure it's just artistic license, wouldn't want to give the Transperth bashers more ammo for their Facebook whinges now would we? :lol:
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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tonyp wrote:In the image of the C series train above, it appears to have lateral seating rather than the longitudinal now pretty standard in Perth. Is this just artistic licence or a reversal of the previous trend? A lot of people don't like riding backwards so that would be a retrograde step. Longitudinal is a good compromise as well as providing more standing space.
They have been pretty careful with their messaging to not lock in something and having to backtrack. All of these things will be finalised as part of contract negotiations. Same as with the wording for the number of doors. Originally they were planning for a "minimum" of four doors per side with a maximum stipulated distance between them, however, this is now changed to be "additional and wider doors" - probably likely to be three doors per side as per latest artist impressions but this is not officially confirmed yet. Likely balancing with their minimum seating requirements which would then tie into what seating/standing layout they will ultimately choose to achieve the 25% capacity increase over the B-series as 6 car sets (which will primarily come from increased standing room).
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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Mr OC Benz wrote:
tonyp wrote:In the image of the C series train above, it appears to have lateral seating rather than the longitudinal now pretty standard in Perth. Is this just artistic licence or a reversal of the previous trend? A lot of people don't like riding backwards so that would be a retrograde step. Longitudinal is a good compromise as well as providing more standing space.
They have been pretty careful with their messaging to not lock in something and having to backtrack. All of these things will be finalised as part of contract negotiations. Same as with the wording for the number of doors. Originally they were planning for a "minimum" of four doors per side with a maximum stipulated distance between them, however, this is now changed to be "additional and wider doors" - probably likely to be three doors per side as per latest artist impressions but this is not officially confirmed yet. Likely balancing with their minimum seating requirements which would then tie into what seating/standing layout they will ultimately choose to achieve the 25% capacity increase over the B-series as 6 car sets (which will primarily come from increased standing room).
Don’t forget to take into consideration that the 25% extra capacity would come from the removal of the 2 redundant cab ends PTA and supplier Alstom would also be able to take full advantage of the loading gauge rather than be restricted to Brisbane’s inferior loading gauge. The C series are expected to be about 6 metres longer than a 6car B series at 150m as opposed to 144m longitudinal bench seating would be the preferred seating arrangement it’s not just about capacity but requires less maintenance due to less wear and tear the fleets with bench seating have aged better than the fleets with the 2x2 arrangement. 3 larger doors would be the appropriate amount to deal with dwell times on the network during peak but particularly during football or royal show as far as I’m aware the C series is just a slightly modified variant of the already existing Alstom X’trapolis as mentioned all of the nitty gritty information will be fine tuned during the negotiations with Alstom but I wouldn’t expect anything overly too different than what we’ve already got
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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C series Image


https://youtu.be/HhOFrx-f7rw


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/news-inf ... s-trains-1


The new six-car trains will carry approximately 1,200 passengers and have an operational life of 35 years. Some of the features include;

A combination of seating styles, which will enable more seats to fit on each train and make every door on the train fully accessible
Additional and wider passenger doors will make it easier and quicker to get on and off
Technology including USB charging points, LED lighting and regenerative braking
Floors will no longer be carpeted and will instead be covered in hard-wearing, easy to clean flooring.


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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ImageImage

Press release from ALSTOM the order includes for an optional additional 30 6car sets or 71 6car sets


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-10/ ... fmredir=sm


The ABC has some information including some renders

ImageImageImageImage




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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Bus Suggestions »

In new tender documents relating to the new Bellevue railcar Depot, there are technical drawings for the A-Series, B-Series, and upcoming C-Series EMUs, as well as the WDA/WDB/WDC (Prospector), WEA/WEB (AvonLink) and upcoming Australind replacement DMUs. Go to PTA210008 - Design, Supply and Installation of the Train Car Wash Equipment for the Bellevue Depot, click Download Now, and then Download For Information Only. The EMUs are located in Attachment 3, and DMUs in Attachment 2.

An interesting tidbit I noticed while going through them is that the new C-Series railcars are 2.86 metres wide from the external extent of their frame (not including the yellow sticky out bits). Although the B and A-Series railcars were limited to Brisbane's loading gauge, they are wider by about 4 centimetres. However, whereas the C-Series' maximum extent is at floor level, the extent of the A and B-Series EMUs are above floor level. By snipping the shots and working off a scale, it can be determined that the floor of the older EMUs across the doorways are still narrower than the C-Series; B-Series ~2767mm, C-Series ~2807mm. Similar applies to the DMU variant of C-Series, being about 2 centimetres narrower than the ADP/ADQ (Australind current) railcars, however likely also being internally wider (no technical drawings available). Other tidbits include:
  • Finalised carriage layout - three types of carriages are Motor with Cab (MC), Trailer with Pantograph (TP) and Motor (M). This ends with layout being akin to that of two coupled B-Series sets, MC-TP-M-M-TP-MC.
  • Finalised seating layout - across the train, a wider walkway is achieved by having transverse seating along one side of the train with longitudinal on the other side:
    Image
  • The seating capacity is thus as follows:
    • MC = 92
    • TP = 116
    • M = 116
    • Full train (2*(MC+TP+M)) = 648
    • This is assuming that the wheelchair bays also have 3 fold-up seats, as according to the concept animations.
    • This is up from a 6-car B-Series at 472 seats (as delivered sets 49-94, 49-61 later had trailer car modified, 95-117 were delivered with a different layout).
  • The C-Series railcars have wider door openings at 1.7 metres, compared to the current A and B-Series at 1.3 metres.
  • While the A and B-Series railcars have seating for only the driver in the cab, the C-Series has seating for two.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Merc1107 »

It's probably been done elsewhere, but it'll be quite strange having those random longitudinal rows facing passengers seated two abreast.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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Image
Image


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Bus Suggestions »

Apologies, I miscounted the seats. The actual seating capacity is 408, down from ~444 on B-Sets 095-126 and down from 472 on B-Sets 049-094.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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https://fb.watch/3h32J2rg9h/

McGowan uploaded this high quality 1440P (2K) video of the C series onto Facebook Watch account best viewed in landscape mode


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Bus Suggestions »

It seems to be available as 2160p (4K). I like the C-Series quite a lot now. I wasn't sure about it when it came out, but the design of the new train has really started to grow on me. Again, I did (and do still) want to keep the now-iconic Transperth trains seating moquette, however, much like the train itself, the new pattern has grown on me. I will say though, the interior shot placed low down the body of the train did make it look a bit stuffy. I understand the same top speed as the B-Series, but I sure do hope they will have faster acceleration.
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