Electric bus trial

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tonyp
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Electric bus trial

Post by tonyp »

Transport Canberra has borrowed the second Yutong E12 Australian demonstrator (unfortunately also with non-standard high floor) for trial in Canberra. (They've already trialled the BYD/Gemilang electric bus.) They've also announced that they will buy no more diesel buses after 2025.

https://www.facebook.com/TransportCanbe ... 464732148/
Last edited by tonyp on Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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After 2015??? Well past.
Living in the Shire.
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote:After 2015??? Well past.
Edited, thanks!
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by 1whoknows »

This demonstrator is the one from the recent bus show in Melbourne, not the same one that was at Nowra and now in region 6.
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by tonyp »

Findings of the previous ACT trials:

https://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data ... ssment.pdf
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote:They've also announced that they will buy no more diesel buses after 2025.
Is this not a cheeky way of saying, "we might buy some CNG buses if we find electrics aren't suitable for all our operational needs"?

Interesting CNG wasn't included as part of the trial. But then again, this another area where something that seems popular and functional overseas "doesn't work" in Australia. Pity as we have an abundance of the stuff domestically versus stockpiles of fuel supplies that (at best) will last just three weeks in the event something goes pear-shaped in the Middle East.

It was also interesting to read that while there were no concerns about the range or recharge time of an electric during the trial given the scheduling arrangements; they were concerned this would become problematic where buses were expected to run two full shifts back-to-back. If I'm reading the information correctly, their longest shift travels 350km, and the electric's range is 450km (it would also be interesting to know what the average distance of a full shift in Canberra is). The remaining 100km would be barely adequate to cover a second-half of a spread.
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by ZIB-585 »

"Leased", not borrowed, with the option to purchase.

Canberra already runs CNG buses - since 2004. The ACT Government is aiming for zero emissions, so new CNG buses will definitely not be purchased.

The last bus tender (RfEOI, but close enough) called for low emissions buses; minimum range requirement was 400km. According to their brochures, Yutong E12 is closer to 250-300km which makes me wonder if they've added batteries to increase the range. The standing capacity has been reduced from 25 to 17 which supports this theory.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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It's an unfortunate distortion in the trial that diesel buses were found to be more reliable as, traditionally, electric vehicles like trolleybuses and trams, are more reliable (less downtime) than diesel vehicles because they are less complex. It seems, as the report suggests, that there are quality issues with the Chinese-built buses and this is the cause of the reduced reliability. It's a pity they can't trial a European bus, but I suspect they wouldn't find one on the market in RHD. However, I hope they can trial Volgren's offering too, as they are a good body designer and builder.

I note also the drivers' comment about the whining noise from the BYD electric bus. A good electric bus should be quiet on the inside as well as outside, but I have observed previously from using the BYDs at Sydney Airport that they do whine badly - in fact, I remember observing to myself that they were noisier than a diesel! However, the Yutong is way better and the drivers should be pleasantly surprised. Their biggest issue is going to be the weight/passenger capacity equation. The Yutong also has very poor seat pitch - they've obviously tried to fit in as many seats as possible to compensate for the shorter cabin space, but they forget that people have legs.

The other problem is having a high floor at the back of these buses in order to fit more batteries on board.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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Despite the misleading hype from the Victorian government, the Volgren offering is simply their body on a Chinese BYD chassis.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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1whoknows wrote:Despite the misleading hype from the Victorian government, the Volgren offering is simply their body on a Chinese BYD chassis.
Yes I'm aware of that, but I would be hopeful that Volgren can do a better job on the body design and internal layout and seat pitch.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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The Yutong (now known as BUS 490) has seen some limited use in the past few days. Presumably not many drivers have been trained yet.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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Luke Todd, CEO of Nexport has offered to lease 30 BYD buses to Transport for Canberra by October 2021 to enable the early withdrawal of the remaining Renaults, which are all either over or approaching 30 years old. The deal would be for a three year, no obligation lease to the ACT government to demonstrate how quickly the introduction of electric buses would make a difference to Transport Canberra fleet emissions. Included in the offer would be a shared cost installation of recharging infrastructure at Woden depot. The ACT Government is already operating 20 hydrogen powered Hyundai Nexo SUVs from a facility at Fyshwick. It will be interesting to see whether TC takes up this offer.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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Firstly, Woden Depot won't be ready for another 2 years.

Secondly, TC will be issuing a tender (who knows when) for the lease of 34 buses. Nexport can submit their offer along with everyone else.

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Re: Electric bus trial

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The tender was issued last week. They are seeking to lease either 8 electric buses (to be stored at the two existing depots), plus 26 diesels; or 34 electric buses to be based at a new satellite depot / charging location. The lease would include the depot.

If they opt for all electric buses, they may not be in service until October 2022, depending on how long it takes to build the depot.

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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by BAMBAM »

Nothing offical or saying these companies have rendered for the contract but an interesting article to read.

https://www.actbus.net/new-electric-bu ... 1bcOenMp0U
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by ZIB-585 »

You might want to fix the link. It's https://www.actbus.net/new-electric-bus ... ontenders/

And yes, all of the companies included have responded to the tender request for the eight bus lease. What is not known is what has been offered in terms of model and timeframe.


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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by tonyp »

BAMBAM wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:38 am Nothing offical or saying these companies have rendered for the contract but an interesting article to read.

https://www.actbus.net/new-electric-bu ... 1bcOenMp0U
Thank you for that. It would appear that Bustech still doesn't have their own Mk 2 ZDi ready because they're offering the Dutch Ebusco model instead.

There are so many out-of-date contenders offering high floor (low-entry) models when such a configuration is completely unnecessary in an electric bus. Still, they've found a compatible potential customer in TC which seems to have a penchant for subjecting its customers to as many stairs as possible in each successive bus order. I'm surprised that they didn't insist that stairs be fitted to the trams as well.

If TC wants to move into the modern era, there are only two serious contenders with up-to-date flat-floored stepless buses here:

. Custom Denning's Element

. The Volgren-bodied Volvo (presumed, but interior yet to be seen)

There are a couple of other possible contenders, based on catalogue renders, but those may not be the Australian offering:

Ebusco appears to be a fully low-floor bus, but when I delve into their details it seems that their three-door model is flat-floored but the two-door is low-entry only. Remains to be seen.

Foton looks from their graphics to have a low floor nearly to the back with a couple of hefty step-ups to the back couple of rows, so not fully stepless gangway. Remains to be seen.

The rest are low-entry buses, often with some quite hefty step-ups to the high floor: ARCC, BCI, Optare, Yutong and any Nexport BYD chassis, whether bodied by Gemilang, Volgren or Alexander Dennis. These are all basically outdated designs. I found it amusing to read Ebusco's blurb where they describe their low-floor as "revolutionary" when fully low-floor has been standard in Europe for some 25 years, even on diesels. Ebusco would know that too, but why be straightforward in advertising when you can throw a bit of bs around to mislead anybody who doesn't know the field?
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by tonyp »

I have posted some further news about Ebusco in Australia in the NSW forum:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=90408&p=1081346#p1081346
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Post by proftca »

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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by Tongans101 »

tonyp wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:48 pm
BAMBAM wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:38 am Nothing offical or saying these companies have rendered for the contract but an interesting article to read.

https://www.actbus.net/new-electric-bu ... 1bcOenMp0U
Thank you for that. It would appear that Bustech still doesn't have their own Mk 2 ZDi ready because they're offering the Dutch Ebusco model instead.

There are so many out-of-date contenders offering high floor (low-entry) models when such a configuration is completely unnecessary in an electric bus. Still, they've found a compatible potential customer in TC which seems to have a penchant for subjecting its customers to as many stairs as possible in each successive bus order. I'm surprised that they didn't insist that stairs be fitted to the trams as well.

If TC wants to move into the modern era, there are only two serious contenders with up-to-date flat-floored stepless buses here:

. Custom Denning's Element

. The Volgren-bodied Volvo (presumed, but interior yet to be seen)

There are a couple of other possible contenders, based on catalogue renders, but those may not be the Australian offering:

Ebusco appears to be a fully low-floor bus, but when I delve into their details it seems that their three-door model is flat-floored but the two-door is low-entry only. Remains to be seen.

Foton looks from their graphics to have a low floor nearly to the back with a couple of hefty step-ups to the back couple of rows, so not fully stepless gangway. Remains to be seen.

The rest are low-entry buses, often with some quite hefty step-ups to the high floor: ARCC, BCI, Optare, Yutong and any Nexport BYD chassis, whether bodied by Gemilang, Volgren or Alexander Dennis. These are all basically outdated designs. I found it amusing to read Ebusco's blurb where they describe their low-floor as "revolutionary" when fully low-floor has been standard in Europe for some 25 years, even on diesels. Ebusco would know that too, but why be straightforward in advertising when you can throw a bit of bs around to mislead anybody who doesn't know the field?
TonyP -

1. Your comment about the ARCC chassis is not true. The step heights meet ADR requirements (as do all the others).
2. How many electric buses in Australia have been bodied by ADL?
3. Outdated design - may or may not be true -however, it's a design mandated by operators and the government specifications for buses. It's also a design suitable to buses that have a central drive motor. Hub drive axle buses - that allow full low floor - are more expensive than "conventional" chassis and most Australian body builders don't have the money to be able to change their "standard" designs due to the small market requirement. The Nexport BYD chassis has hub motors but even it cannot be full low floor due to the position and size of the batteries required.

Are you saying you know the field (your comment above about being misled)?...... I would say you need to do a lot more research and maybe even talk to people who actually are in the field so that you would not be posting such misinformed opinions. There is a lot more going on that's not in the public domain. It takes a lot more time and a lot more investment than anyone can imagine to get a fleet of diesel buses changed over to alternative fuelled - battery/hydrogen.
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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by Merc1107 »

To say that fully low-floor is an impossibility due to cost or inadequate design is a cop-out - conventional buses overseas have managed for decades, and there are even a few here in Australia.
In terms of electrics, both the Volvo BZL/Optimus and Custom-Denning Element manage - the former utilises a power train with a two-speed gearbox.

That the step heights are ADR compliant is great. Why not go whole hog and get rid of them? They slow down passenger movement immensely. That is my day in, day out experience as an employee in the sector. Time to move on
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Re: Electric bus trial

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Tongans101 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:59 am Outdated design - may or may not be true -however, it's a design mandated by operators and the government specifications for buses. It's also a design suitable to buses that have a central drive motor. Hub drive axle buses - that allow full low floor - are more expensive than "conventional" chassis and most Australian body builders don't have the money to be able to change their "standard" designs due to the small market requirement. The Nexport BYD chassis has hub motors but even it cannot be full low floor due to the position and size of the batteries required.

Are you saying you know the field (your comment above about being misled)?...... I would say you need to do a lot more research and maybe even talk to people who actually are in the field so that you would not be posting such misinformed opinions. There is a lot more going on that's not in the public domain. It takes a lot more time and a lot more investment than anyone can imagine to get a fleet of diesel buses changed over to alternative fuelled - battery/hydrogen.
Full low floor electric buses have been around for some 20 years, before hub motors became a thing (and those will be a short-lived fashion because of the additional cost, complexity and maintenance). What made the low floor possible was putting the drive train on the offside of the bus (same with diesels). Central drive motors went out with the last high floor designs in the 1990s, though some lingered on in low-entry (part high floor) buses from some anachronistic manufacturers who are not up with the game. I'm surprised you're not aware of this, it's all been common knowledge to anybody tapped into the industry worldwide over the past couple of decades (I spent a lot of time visiting and talking to Europe's largest electric bus manufacturer - and riding their buses - a decade ago and have remained tuned in to industry developments ever since).

The feature that has developed over the last couple of decades is not the basic form of the low floor electric bus, that's remained the same (the Custom Denning Element being a classic exemplar), it's the source of power, which has gradually moved away from external overhead contact systems to onboard systems like battery and fuel cell. This has, however, come at the cost of additional weight and downtime and thus reduced the passenger capacity and range of buses, but as technology moves on, I'm confident these issues will be reduced or overcome.

But having fully low floor is now long-established technology and Australian state government specs and operators have in fact allowed that for years. Anybody who can't accomplish that in a new design is out of touch with both current technology and modern expectations of an efficient, passenger-friendly commuter bus, the point made by Merc1107. Almost all of the design and technology work has already been done. It seems to be a struggle only with some Australian manufacturers and importers. However, one Australian manufacturer, Custom Denning, got straight there seemingly almost effortlessly while others are still struggling to catch up. Maybe it has something to do with competencies.
Last edited by tonyp on Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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Merc1107 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:19 am
That the step heights are ADR compliant is great. Why not go whole hog and get rid of them? They slow down passenger movement immensely. That is my day in, day out experience as an employee in the sector. Time to move on
Being ADR compliant is not actually so good. Whoever drew up the standard obviously hasn't used a bus as a passenger. These are ADR compliant stairs on a BYD at Sydney Airport. They don't just slow down movement, they discourage passengers from moving to the back of the bus to spread the load and thus fit more people on the bus to maximise its efficiency and productivity.

BYDsteps1a.jpg
BYDsteps1a.jpg (63.17 KiB) Viewed 3855 times
I used to use these buses a lot. My wife eventually insisted we change to another car park with a minibus service, the experience was so awful. I'd see older people start to climb these stairs, give up and go back to the low floor. It was common to see a crowd of 60 jammed into the front 2/3 of the bus that is low floor and the high floor seats at the back having only a few airport staff and crew in them. These are the worst-designed modern bus for crowd transport that I've ever seen. In spite of having three doors, the luggage racks are near only one of them, so when the Virgin crowd changes over with the Qantas crowd still onboard, the Qantas crowd can't get to their luggage at the Qantas terminal and there's a free-for-all inside the bus as people barge through the crowds to get their suitcase and then drag those through the crowd. It's a living example of why this sort of bus should have a fully low floor with the third door at the rear behind the rear axle.

To cap it off, the operator had the buses covered with full wrap, so you couldn't see where your stop is in the car park at night. It's a classic case of designers and operators not thinking like a passenger, or about any of the functionality issues that should be fundamental to a commuter-type bus. The bloke in charge of this airport operation now runs Nexport where the same lack of thought is evident in the BYD product, but, in fairness, this lack of insight is far and wide across the industry in Australia. Custom Denning is the only local bright light in this regard at the moment.
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Re: Electric bus trial

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Re: Electric bus trial

Post by alleve »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 pm More electric buses for Canberra
Disappointing that they're going with more Yutongs
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