Hunters Hill coaches

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tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

Great original photos thanks Red and Cream. Though not quite original for 4399 which had the decorative side fluting added later. Miss those American buses, beautiful and quiet to ride in. Ken Butt replaced the engines in both of these with Perkins diesels. Luckily I missed riding them in that condition, it must have been absolutely dreadful from a passenger pov.

M/O 4399 as newly-delivered:


https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19899
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Red and Cream
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

Interesting to see the newly delivered 4399 in your post tonyp without the side fluting compared to my mid to late 1966 photo of it. I think these two Syd Wood FE bodies plus the two bodies for Fogg's of Newcastle ( m/o 4141 and m/o 4294 ) on UF AEC Reliance chassis were his best designed bodies of his factories output. A pity that the Perkins motor replaced the Reo sound but i imagine it was a matter of cost effectiveness for Ken, still i must admit i don't mind the Perkin's motor as my Flxible Clipper was powered by P6 and it was very reliable and very good on fuel.
That's my chase car in the background of the shot of 4399.
tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

Red and Cream wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:24 am Interesting to see the newly delivered 4399 in your post tonyp without the side fluting compared to my mid to late 1966 photo of it. I think these two Syd Wood FE bodies plus the two bodies for Fogg's of Newcastle ( m/o 4141 and m/o 4294 ) on UF AEC Reliance chassis were his best designed bodies of his factories output. A pity that the Perkins motor replaced the Reo sound but i imagine it was a matter of cost effectiveness for Ken, still i must admit i don't mind the Perkin's motor as my Flxible Clipper was powered by P6 and it was very reliable and very good on fuel.
That's my chase car in the background of the shot of 4399.
You mean my paranoia that I was being followed home on the bus by somebody in a Holden was not just my imagination! :lol:

I think the highpoint of the Syd Wood style was his American-influenced buses of the 1940s. The Flxible Clipper was in the same design tradition. Syd died in 1950, so the style we see in the final decade was introduced under Jean Wood's management. I agree that the design's best outcome was in buses with the front door ahead of the front axle, but there were not that many of those in those days. That developed with the gradual removal of conductors and the introduction of pay as you enter and Syd Woods' was gone in 1962.

That early CCMC bus (MO 4037) is interesting. Nice front end but something not right about the window line. A little reminiscent of Properts whose buses looked like a small child's drawing of a bus. Some bus builders had industrial design talent, some didn't. CCMC rapidly improved and by the 1960s was producing beautiful designs, as did Coachmaster, all represented in HHBC fleet. Envy you having owned a Clipper!
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Red and Cream
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

tonyp wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:47 am
You mean my paranoia that I was being followed home on the bus by somebody in a Holden was not just my imagination! :lol:

I think the highpoint of the Syd Wood style was his American-influenced buses of the 1940s. The Flxible Clipper was in the same design tradition. Syd died in 1950, so the style we see in the final decade was introduced under Jean Wood's management. I agree that the design's best outcome was in buses with the front door ahead of the front axle, but there were not that many of those in those days. That developed with the gradual removal of conductors and the introduction of pay as you enter and Syd Woods' was gone in 1962.

That early CCMC bus (MO 4037) is interesting. Nice front end but something not right about the window line. A little reminiscent of Properts whose buses looked like a small child's drawing of a bus. Some bus builders had industrial design talent, some didn't. CCMC rapidly improved and by the 1960s was producing beautiful designs, as did Coachmaster, all represented in HHBC fleet. Envy you having owned a Clipper!

No you weren't imagining it tonyp. I got quite a few on road photos by chasing the bus, overtaking it when it stopped to take up passengers then finding the next stop with waiting passengers, pull up and hey bingo an in service bus photo.
I was lucky to acquire the Flxible Clipper as they did not come up for sale very often and only was able to get it because of a family connection with the former owner. It was an amazing bus to drive. It was in Redcliffe in Queensland when i bought it and i drove it down to Sydney over two days, one of which was an overcast showery day but that bus because of its low centre of gravity just handled and drove beautifully. After giving it such a great wrap, i only had it for six years which was the shortest period i had owned one of my buses for. It was an interesting Clipper as it was unit D52 named Bambra and was one of the only two Flxibles that were fitted with air suspension air conditioning and a toilet /wash room for the start of Pioneers Adelaide Perth service in 1962, it was also one of the lengthened buses. I know i have gone a bit off topic here but seeing we are exploring the similarities between Syd Woods designs and American lookalikes i have included the Clipper below.

BUS 020 FLXIBLE.jpg
tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

There was a Clipper around KIama somewhere that I'd keep seeing around Shoalhaven, beautifully restored and very easy on the eye. Haven't seen it for a while.

Syd Woods' phase with the American style was exemplified by this 1942 bus for Adelaide:

Image
[Bankstown Library collection]

Two examples in the Hunters Hill fleet were:
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19911
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19907
[Ken Magor collection]
hugh45
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by hugh45 »

The top Hunters Hill bus appears to be left hand drive. Also it would have needed a conductor on board to collect fares.
tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

hugh45 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:51 am The top Hunters Hill bus appears to be left hand drive. Also it would have needed a conductor on board to collect fares.
It could be, but I think it's more likely the angle of the photo. They did have conductors then!
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Red and Cream
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

hugh45 wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:51 am The top Hunters Hill bus appears to be left hand drive. Also it would have needed a conductor on board to collect fares.
The bus is definitely right hand drive, just the angle of the photo as tonyp suggests. A lot of large bus operators of the period used conductors as the passenger loading after the 2nd. World War deemed it necessary, even some of the smaller owners such as Longueville Motor Bus Company used them.
That door placement on m/o 863 was very unusual for a suburban bus and was eventually changed to the normal configuration and it stayed in the Hunters Hill fleet until the mid 60's when it was sold to Wolfe of Kandos as MO 4142. I am not sure the description of it being a White is correct as i always knew it as a Reo, anyway here is a photo of it in Kandos on 28th. March 1967 after its sale from Hunters Hill.

1341.jpg

That Syd Wood body on the rear engined Reo certainly was an attempt by them tonyp to emulate an American style look and they sure did that in that body style.
Last edited by Red and Cream on Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GM
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by GM »

Reo Pusher - T & BT Feb 1942 Pages 14 & 15.
Attachments
T & BT - Feb 1942 Page 14 & 15 - Reo Pusher - r.JPG
T & BT - Feb 1942 Page 14 & 15 - Reo Pusher - r.JPG (119.19 KiB) Viewed 1941 times
tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

Thank you GM, most interesting. I wonder who those six Reo Pushers went to? Very advanced for the time and anticipating modern citybuses, I wonder if the reason they had a short life in Australia was cooling issues? I suspect that issue led to the radiator being turned around to face forward like this:

pusher.jpg

Re conductors:


https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19939
003 1953a.jpg

I remember conductors being around till the early 1960s because of the big crowds on the buses, notably 234 to Woolwich, 95 to Chatswood and the Longueville Co's Wynyard service. They remained on the government services a decade or so longer because of the double deckers. Journeys became greatly protracted with pay as you enter. The government should have introduced a prepay fare system like they did with the Melbourne trams, but that had to wait another 40-50 years in NSW!
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by GM »

They did have cooling problems which meant most were converted to forward engine as per No 7 ERBS, Fogg's and Wagg.
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19927
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19931
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19934
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Red and Cream
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

A few more pusher Reo's around NSW.

1011.jpg
MO 258 Lewis of Berrigan.
780.jpg
m/o 789 Mayman of Woronora. Not sure about this one as it does not fit the Syd Wood outline as the other pushers.

314B.jpg
Wagg's Reo was registered as m/o 544 in its last years of service.
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Fleet Lists »

Re Red Bus 7 - The photo added here does not show a centre replaced door with seven windows on the driver side while these two photos do in the addition to the seven windows - seems rather strange.
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19772
http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19773
Also these two photo show provision for a desto route number which is not shown in the photo here.
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GM
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by GM »

Fleet Lists - The Red Bus No 7 that you show is NOT the REAL ERBS No 7, it is Fogg's pusher that Peter Anderson painted up to look like the genuine No 7.
The photos show the Fogg's Pusher being loaded onto a White Semi Trailer to be transported to Blacktown for preservation by me.
Peter was told to get rid of his buses by his wife. I also received Hunters Hill m/o 55 the eight cylinder Reo Syd Wood.
I have photos of ERBS No 7 wrecked on a property at Tumbi Umbi to-gether with several of ERBS Decker's
It would appear that Fogg's Bus went to Packer at Goulburn and this is where Peter obtained it. No 55 was returned ti Peter and the Pusher was on a friends property at St Marys and was accidentally burnt out.
With Peter we located Wagg's Reo on a property near Kurrajong and took a number of photos.
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19943
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19947
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19951
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19955
Attachments
031-11 Peter Anderson 04 - Hunters Hill Bus Co - mo 55 Reo Syd Wood - Preparing to Leave PA's Erina Heights - Copy.JPG
Drummond R - Anderson's Bus Movement - Lunch Break - 01.JPG
Drummond R - Anderson's Bus Movement - Lunch Break - 01.JPG (29.04 KiB) Viewed 1784 times
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Fleet Lists »

Thank You - I have updated the descriptions of the photos linked to in my previous edit.

I had read somewhere that Sid Foggs came into to but I could not previously work out how.

I will also be adding some of your photos to the photo gallery in the next week or so.
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by GM »

David, this is No 7 when brand new with the engine still in the rear. With Ray Parsons at the Wheel and when retired.
I remember Peter Anderson telling me that he thought there were eight pushers exported to Aus.
Some forward entrance Reo's of this period look like pushers but had front engines from the beginning?
A Marrin had one. But the conversions seem to have that strange wire like grill?
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19959
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19983
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19967
[attachment=0]The History of a Reo Pusher in Victoria.PNG[/attachment]
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19971
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19975
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19979
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19983
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The History of a Reo Pusher in Victoria.PNG
tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

According to Leon Manny, the HHBC Pusher, MO 863, worked on the Greenwich (route 99) service for many years. It was fitted with a Buda diesel engine. HHBC also inherited two small LM Reos in 1955 when it took over route 95 from Newman (Longueville Bus Co.) - MO 117 and MO 244. Before demolition started for the construction of Tarban Creek bridge in the early 1960s, there was a block bounded by Church, Durham and Joubert Sts that provided a useful layover circuit for driver changeovers and these smaller Reos would often be used as the "depot car" to bring and pick up drivers for the changeover. These were parked alongside the Police station that was within this block and, being opposite my house, I would have a good selection of buses to view. Construction of the expressway swept this all away.

I'm not sure what happened to MO 117 and MO 244 and I'm sure some of these buses must have been used on Ryde routes which I didn't have much insight into as my bus territory was Hunters Hill and Lane Cove where we had all the big buses (and newest on 95) for the heavy traffic on all those routes (except Riverview - 53- which always had smaller buses, notably normal control Speedwagons). The Ryde services at the time were getting battered by the extension of DGT services into the area, at the same time having a tax levied on them as they were then considered to be "competing" with government bus services. I have the feeling that Ken Butt must have done a good job winning back Ryde to some extent, but it all went to the government anyway in 1999. Now, in another turn, that phase lasted little more than twenty years, after which it will go private again next year - to Dick Rowe's company, another of the early pioneers of Sydney's bus services.
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by GM »

Tonp I cannot locate a photo of MO 863 do you have one?. Have Photo m/o 430.
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19919
tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

GM wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:11 pm Tonp I cannot locate a photo of MO 863 do you have one?. Have Photo m/o 430.
The only photos I have seen are the one I posted above from the Ken Magor collection and the one posted above by Red and Cream. According to Manny, MO 430 was acquired in 1938, Syd Wood body, Reo Pusher later converted to forward engine. So it looks like HHBC might have had two Pushers, one from 1938 and one from about 1942.
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Fleet Lists »

m/o 863 is in the photo gallery as http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19911 and has been posted in various threads in this board.
There has been some debate as to whether it is a White because if the badge or whether it is a REO.
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tonyp
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:25 am m/o 863 is in the photo gallery as http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19911 and has been posted in various threads in this board.
There has been some debate as to whether it is a White because if the badge or whether it is a REO.
Reos sometimes had a badge like that. HHBC had no history of buying Whites.
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

A few more shots of the buses (m/o 430- m/o 863-m/o 473) featured in tonyp and GM posts.

In GM's shot of the group of Hunters Hill NC Reo's it shows m/o 473 as a normal control bus, this is my photo of it after it was converted to forward control and sold to Troy of Epping.
B76B-TROY-473.jpg
m/o 473 Reo Troy of Epping photographed on 24th October 1959.


After service with Troy it was sold to Larkins Bus Service as m/o 4541 and then to Owens and Bray of Milton as MO 506. Don Allitt photographed it there.
EPSON015Dd.jpg
EPSON015Dd.jpg (58.99 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
ExTroy's m/o 473 now MO 506 at Milton. A Don Allitt Photo.

Another Hunters Hill Reo the pusher m/o 430 was also in the same photo and here is another Don Allitt photo of it after it was sold to Hammondville Bus Service.
EPSON015Cc.jpg
EPSON015Cc.jpg (59.12 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
D.Allitt Photo.


A Don Allitt photo of m/o 863 when it was at Hunters Hill
EPSON016ggD.jpg
EPSON016ggD.jpg (52.6 KiB) Viewed 1602 times
A Don Allitt Photo.
Last edited by Red and Cream on Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Red and Cream
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:25 am m/o 863 is in the photo gallery as http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19911 and has been posted in various threads in this board.
There has been some debate as to whether it is a White because if the badge or whether it is a REO.
tonyp wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:37 am
Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:25 am m/o 863 is in the photo gallery as http://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/dis ... ?pid=19911 and has been posted in various threads in this board.
There has been some debate as to whether it is a White because if the badge or whether it is a REO.
Reos sometimes had a badge like that. HHBC had no history of buying Whites.

Quite a lot of people think those wings relate to a White but it is only the very large wings associated with the large roundel in the centre with the White name prominently displayed on it means a true White. The smaller winged badge as shown on the Hunters Hill bus is a generic badge that can have any chassis name displayed on the centre plate between the wings. I have seen it with Ford, Mack, Reo, and even one time White. It was widely used on Syd Wood bodies but also on Propert's as well .
The Hunters Hill m/o 863 has always been a Reo not a White.
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by Red and Cream »

tonyp wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:28 pm According to Leon Manny, the HHBC Pusher, MO 863, worked on the Greenwich (route 99) service for many years. It was fitted with a Buda diesel engine. HHBC also inherited two small LM Reos in 1955 when it took over route 95 from Newman (Longueville Bus Co.) - MO 117 and MO 244. Before demolition started for the construction of Tarban Creek bridge in the early 1960s, there was a block bounded by Church, Durham and Joubert Sts that provided a useful layover circuit for driver changeovers and these smaller Reos would often be used as the "depot car" to bring and pick up drivers for the changeover. These were parked alongside the Police station that was within this block and, being opposite my house, I would have a good selection of buses to view. Construction of the expressway swept this all away.
tonyp I have this photo of Longueville's Reo m/o 117 you mentioned in your post. I acquired this photo from somebody nearly sixty years ago and do not know who the photographer was but it is a professionally done shot so i suspect it maybe a Longueville company one or even by Leon Manny. Whoever took it, enthusiasts thank you for it.
117 LONGUEVILLE.jpgB.jpg
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Re: Hunters Hill coaches

Post by system improver »

From the Keith KIngs Collection - the Warrnambool BL Grummet bodied Reo:
kk0541.jpg
kk0542.jpg
kk0543.jpg
kk0544.jpg
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