Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

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Craig
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Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by Craig »

Fact sheet from Herald Sun website outling key changes from 27 July - http://media.heraldsun.com.au/ipadspeci ... _A4_HR.pdf
PTV Fact Sheet wrote:MORE TRAINS MORE OFTEN
More than 200 extra train services per week

From Sunday, 27 July 2014, a statewide public transport timetable boost will deliver almost 4,000 extra train, tram and bus services every week.

On the Metro train network, the timetable will be boosted on the two busiest lines, to create space for thousands of extra passengers in the peaks, and provide more frequent services throughout the day.

Cranbourne and Pakenham lines
A new timetable for the Dandenong corridor will include more frequent services, a more regular timetable, and new stopping patterns to benefit more stations.
>>39 extra services every weekday
>>195 extra services per week
>>Two extra trains in each of the morning and evening peaks
>>Services every 10 minutes during the day for Dandenong
>>Services every 20 minutes during the day between Dandenong and Cranbourne/Pakenham.

Frankston line
A new timetable for the Frankston line will include more services in the busy morning peak.
>>2 extra morning peak services
>>Capacity for 2,000 additional passengers in the morning peak
Kind Regards


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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

Changes to train schedules affect the Cross City and Dandenong groups only.

Dandenong group:
10 minute interpeak service.
Increased peak services now running every 7-8 minutes instead of every 9 minutes. (Occasional gaps of 14-15 minutes to allow for Vline trains to take a path)
Consistent express running with almost all trains running express Caulfield to South Yarra. Late night trains will stop at all stations, and a few counter peak trains will skip South Yarra. All trains now stop at Hughesdale, Murrumbeena and Carnegie to distribute loading.
Counter peak direction service reduction on Cranbourne line in order to allow more peak direction trains.

Cross City Group - Frankston line:
Altered peak timetable for more consistency.
Trains via the City Loop depart from platforms 6 and 7. Direct trains from 8 and 9.

Cross City Group - Werribee line:
Three services from Flinders Street to Werribee will now commence from Laverton instead of Flinders Street.

No changes on any other lines.
Last edited by RailwayBus on Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by pakenhamtrain »

RailwayBus wrote:Changes to train schedules affect the Cross City and Dandenong groups only.

Consistent express running with almost all trains running express Caulfield to South Yarra. Late night trains will stop at all stations, and a few counter peak trains will skip South Yarra. All trains now stop at Hughesdale, Murrumbeena and Carnegie to distribute loading.

.
I wonder why they even bother having trains run express through Yarraman and Westall then.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

It's all to do with evenly distributing loading amongst trains. In addition to load surveys conducted every 6 months, trains are also intensely simulated through modelling software.

Dandenong and Cranbourne trains were more heavily loaded than Pakenham trains, and there were issues at the stations closer to town with being people being unable to get on them, while a more lightly loaded Pakenham train goes straight past.

First solution is to add more stops to the Pakenham train. However this then makes the Pakenham train more heavily loaded, and people can't get on anyway. So the solution to this new problem is to remove Yarraman and Westall in order to allow stops at the other three stations, and this evens out the loading across all trains fairly evenly.

Naturally not all trains will have the same loading throughout peak hour, as even peak hours have their own peaks. However consistency across peak is considered very important, so for the entire peak all Pakenhams will stop at the same stations as each other, and Cranbournes / Dandenongs / Westalls will do the same.

Pakenham line express trains have been timetabled with stopping all stations times since 2011, as the line full to capacity. This unfortunately means no time saving. Therefore the only reason for express trains becomes loading distribution.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by system improver »

For all the "boosting" of services, Malvern has had its weekday services cut by about half. They could have at least rectified the afternoon peak nonsense by way of recompense. I wonder how many other stations have less services in the peak than between the peaks.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

system improver wrote:For all the "boosting" of services, Malvern has had its weekday services cut by about half. They could have at least rectified the afternoon peak nonsense by way of recompense. I wonder how many other stations have less services in the peak than between the peaks.
In the AM peak 2 hours, Malvern has almost double the trains than it does during 2 hours of interpeak.
In the PM peak 2 hours, Malvern has one less train than it does during 2 hours of interpeak.

The discrepancy between the two is due to the Frankston limited express pattern which stops in the morning but doesn't in the afternoon. This is the case due to loading issues in the AM peak on all stations services.

To answer your question, the other MATH stations would be in the same boat for the PM peak. Also the three stations on the Westona Loop, as well as the three stations on the Williamstown branch, all have a slightly lower service frequency in peak hour vs interpeak. The Alamein line also has this issue during the morning peak.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by system improver »

There are more than 100 services that no longer stop at Malvern - each day (in PTV ramp up mode, that's more than 500 services per week). PTV can spin it anyway they like, but that is not a "boost".
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

system improver wrote:There are more than 100 services that no longer stop at Malvern - each day (in PTV ramp up mode, that's more than 500 services per week). PTV can spin it anyway they like, but that is not a "boost".
There is only one station that suffers that fate in this timetable, and it is Malvern. Which ever way we look at it, Malvern was overserviced, with 10 tph during interpeak periods. With an increase of train frequencies, it would've become 12tph, which is overkill.

The other problem that Malvern had was that trains stopped on weekdays but didn't on weekends. This is now consistent with trains not stopping on all 7 days.

Quite simply, there was no need for the Dandenong line to stop at Malvern anymore.

While any drop in service is unfortunate, this one made sense, and Malvern still has a better train service than most other stations on the network.

AFAIK the only other cuts are the 6.22am, 6.43am and 7.05am trains from Flinders Street to Werribee will now commence from Laverton. That's three services cut from 6 stations, which is negligible.

So there is no doubt that aside from one station, Malvern, this timetable is a boost!
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by 1whoknows »

Just bad luck that system improvers local station is Malvern I guess.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by system improver »

Malvern is one of the busiest stations on the Frankston/Dandenong corridor. That's the reason Dandenong line trains have stopped there for as long as I can remember.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by matthew »

The reason why no express trains on the Hurstbridge line in off peak times - from Public transport minster office:

Due to low patronage , there are no express trains during weekday off peak periods and on weekends.

It valid to have express on the line in off-peak time - reason to get more people using off-peak services.

More people would use the service in off peak time - if the Express trains was brought back on the line or other wise people like myself would just use the trains in peak time.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by jarf »

^ The three minute increase in journey time by not running express Jolimont-Clifton Hill is not why the Hurstbridge line has little patronage outside of peak.

I'd say it's more along the lines of poor frequency, poor reliability, small catchment, as well as the area's travel patterns (most off-peak travel is local, not to and from the CBD).
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by matthew »

jarf wrote:^ The three minute increase in journey time by not running express Jolimont-Clifton Hill is not why the Hurstbridge line has little patronage outside of peak.

I'd say it's more along the lines of poor frequency, poor reliability, small catchment, as well as the area's travel patterns (most off-peak travel is local, not to and from the CBD).
it 13 mins is difference between express train and stopping all stations train
It would be waste of resources of having 10 mins services to place like Alphington, Dennis, Darebin and Eaglemont stations, but at same time places like Heidelberg, Ivanhoe and Fairfield should have a ten mins service: I would have include any station after Heidelberg till Greensborough - but there is problem of single track between Heidelberg and Rosanna station.

That why train line needs a two tier service :
Etham (Hurstbridge every 2nd train) stopping all stations to Heidelberg then Ivanhoe and then Fairfield and then may be Westgarth and then Clifton Hill and then express to Jolimont and then to Flinders street (every 20 mins)

5 to 10 mins after the express service from Heidelberg and then run stopping all station from Heidelberg to the City (every 20 mins)

This should allow the South Morang line to go express between Clifton Hill and Jolimont because stations like Victoria Park, Collingwood, West Richmond and North Richmond only get a small number of people using the service and these locations have lots of other services provide them with a more frequent service going to the city such as number of frequent smart buses and tram services.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by krustyklo »

^ The three minute increase in journey time by not running express Jolimont-Clifton Hill is not why the Hurstbridge line has little patronage outside of peak.
I wouldn't have said the Hurstbridge line has little patronage outside of peak. Sure it isn't the Dandenong line, but the train is usually comfortably full by Fairfield or so. I got the impression the stopping all stations off peak was to provide a 10 minute service frequency between Clifton Hill and the city. And as you point out, the 3 minutes is no big deal and would be saved by anyone getting off at the stations previously expressed through.
it 13 mins is difference between express train and stopping all stations train
Where the heck are you running express - from Hurstbridge? According to the current timetable, you can save 3 minutes running express from Jolimont to Clifton Hill, 4 minutes between Clifton Hill and Heidelberg (not stopping at Ivanhoe), and 2 minutes between Heidelberg and Greensborough (assuming platforms can be found - I don't know why so many counter peak morning trains run express between Heidelberg and Greensborough given the same timing is allowed for stopping, presumably because the express has to wait for a platform at Greensborough). 3+4+2 = 9 minutes according to my calculator. And this would be less than optimal as it misses busy stations like Watsonia, Macleod, Ivanhoe and Fairfield.

Seriously, I would love to travel express from Greensborough to whichever station I wish to get off at for that journey, but it's a train, not a taxi. In return for paying much much less than it would cost me to drive, I put up with stopping at a few stations along the way. Sometimes they are even where I want to go.
It would be waste of resources of having 10 mins services to place like Alphington, Dennis, Darebin and Eaglemont stations, but at same time places like Heidelberg, Ivanhoe and Fairfield should have a ten mins service: I would have include any station after Heidelberg till Greensborough - but there is problem of single track between Heidelberg and Rosanna station.
Nope, more just a waste of resources. The single track section easily copes with the better than 10 minute frequency in peak hour - there is no reason based on line capacity for not running a 10 minute service to Greensborough. In fact, the PTV in their train plan propose to do so some time before 2050.
That why train line needs a two tier service :
Etham (Hurstbridge every 2nd train) stopping all stations to Heidelberg then Ivanhoe and then Fairfield and then may be Westgarth and then Clifton Hill and then express to Jolimont and then to Flinders street (every 20 mins)

5 to 10 mins after the express service from Heidelberg and then run stopping all station from Heidelberg to the City (every 20 mins)
If you're going to run an express every 20 minutes and a seperate stopping service every 20 minutes, why not just run a stopping service every 10 minutes? Frequency is freedom as Jarrett Walker is fond of saying, a 20 minute service saving at best 9 minutes is still 1 minute slower than a 10 minute service stopping all stations if I've just missed one. In fact, worse if I have to go somewhere other than Heidelberg, Clifton Hill or the city.
This should allow the South Morang line to go express between Clifton Hill and Jolimont because stations like Victoria Park, Collingwood, West Richmond and North Richmond only get a small number of people using the service and these locations have lots of other services provide them with a more frequent service going to the city such as number of frequent smart buses and tram services.
So once you've closed Victoria Park, Collingwood, West Richmond and North Richmond or given them a rubbish service, how do people from north of Clifton Hill get to those locations? For work, or to eat at one of the well regarded Victoria St restaurants. Or to go to Ikea on the 109? To walk to Richmond station from West Richmond (slightly quicker than going in to the city and back out again)? Those stations don't only exist so locals can go to the city!

With all due respect, if saving 3 minutes is that important, buy a helicopter and fly to the city. Is the heliport still there?
Otherwise, plug your headphones into your iPod, get out your smartphone, go to Failblog, or YouTube cat videos and you'll be in the city before you realise you've stopped at West Richmond... :roll:
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

system improver wrote:Malvern is one of the busiest stations on the Frankston/Dandenong corridor. That's the reason Dandenong line trains have stopped there for as long as I can remember.
While this is true, until only a few years ago there was only 4 trains per hour on each line, and only 3 per hour on weekends, Malvern was considered busy enough that it justified more than 4 or 3 tph.

Now it is 6 trains per hour on each of those lines, 7 days a week. With the increase in number of services on both lines passing through Malvern, there is no longer a need for every train to stop there, as one line at 6 tph can now handle expected patronage.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

matthew wrote:
This should allow the South Morang line to go express between Clifton Hill and Jolimont because stations like Victoria Park, Collingwood, West Richmond and North Richmond only get a small number of people using the service
I suggest you stand on North Richmond platform for a day and count all the people who use it. Same at Victoria Park. Both of these stations are busier than many other stations on the Hurstbridge line.

Stopping all stations at a higher frequency is a much better time saving method as you spend only half the time waiting for the train. Not to mention, express trains on this line just catch up to the train infront anyway.

Maybe once each line gets 6 tph, a Clifton Hill to Jolimont express could be considered.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by matthew »

RailwayBus wrote:
matthew wrote:
This should allow the South Morang line to go express between Clifton Hill and Jolimont because stations like Victoria Park, Collingwood, West Richmond and North Richmond only get a small number of people using the service
I suggest you stand on North Richmond platform for a day and count all the people who use it. Same at Victoria Park. Both of these stations are busier than many other stations on the Hurstbridge line.

Stopping all stations at a higher frequency is a much better time saving method as you spend only half the time waiting for the train. Not to mention, express trains on this line just catch up to the train infront anyway.

Maybe once each line gets 6 tph, a Clifton Hill to Jolimont express could be considered.
Metro CEO Andrew Lezala said Melburnians needed to swap cars for public transport to help secure the city's future. - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/me ... 9a776feccc
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People like myself are not going be give up their car travel - if alternative is a stopping all station train service.

Only way I give up going by car - if metro offers a faster and frequent train service and the includes express trains in off-peak time.

it about 84 % of people in Melbourne use cars compare 16% use public transport.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by krustyklo »

People like myself are not going be give up their car travel - if alternative is a stopping all station train service.

Only way I give up going by car - if metro offers a faster and frequent train service and the includes express trains in off-peak time.
The most important thing you said was "Only way I give up going by car - if metro offers a faster and frequent train service". The other statements are opinions about how it should be done... :wink:

The reality of course is that people with choice are prepared to accept trade offs. For example, it would be much quicker for me to drive to the city. In the 15 minutes it takes me to walk to the station and wait for a train, I could have driven from where I live to Heidelberg. Equally, I can drive from my house to work in about 25 minutes in peak hour, yet I readily accept a 40-45 minute ride on the bus. Am I completely abnormal and out of my mind? Of course not!

In the former case of going to the city, I don't love driving in the inner city traffic, not do I love trying to park the car in the inner suburbs or CBD where I either have to watch the time like a hawk, or pay through the nose for parking. Or both. I trade off the time for a slower journey that is much cheaper, less stressful, and where I can spend time reading on my tablet computer or finding out more information about my plans for the day.

In the second case, I trade off the stress of driving in Fitzsimons Lane traffic and the cost of driving for a longer but much cheaper journey where I can start the day's work on my laptop, or read on the tablet. In this case it often is a much more productive trip than driving despite driving being quicker.

In the case of a purely theoretical discussion about stopping vs express, in the case discussed of express Heidelberg to Ivanhoe to Fairfield to Clifton Hill to Jolimont, I would guess that the time saving at most would be about 6 or 7 minutes for a one seat journey between Heidelberg or further out, and one of the stations stopped at. For a journey involving interchange, you would lose that time saving in the interchange. Worse, if the average wait for a train running express is every 20 minutes, the wait is on average 10 minutes. In comparison, a 10 minute frequency using the same number of trains would have an average wait of 5 minutes. If you randomly show up for a train then that time saving has gone in the average wait. On the other hand, you could argue most people plan ahead to catch a train at a particular time. This is true - to a point. If you miss your chosen train, it is 20 minutes to the next express. Hardly attractive. In comparison, for a 10 minute stopping all station service it is 10 minutes wait, and you still get there 3-4 minutes quicker than waiting for the alternative express service pattern. The other place the 'but everyone plans ahead' argument falls down is that people usually plan ahead for their inbound journey. Return journeys are often less predictable. You can't predict when you get sick of shopping, when an appointment or meeting will finish precisely, when you will finish paid employment, when you will complete many other tasks. For the return journey, the random wait argument is more probable and persuasive. In this instance, the 10 minute stopping service is quicker.

The reality is that people's point of elasticity varies depending on personal preference. For some, they will never use a train even if it was much quicker. Others value their time fairly low and are more than happy to accept a slower cheaper service. Most people are somewhere in between. In your case you may only use the train where the journey from A to B is demonstrably quicker. Other people are different and accept a slightly slower journey for the trade off of cost, or productivity of the use of that time.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by matthew »

I normally travel to the city on the weekend and there is free car parking near the CBD area.
From next year - free trams in the CBD and docklands - so people like myself will just drive near the city and park and walk to the start of the CBD area and catch the free tram service in to town or take someone I know with a parking sign ( free car parking spot in the CBD for Two hours).

Last Sunday - I drive to Werribee and it take me only 55 mins - by using public transport it would have taken me 1hr 16mins - 1hr 30mins.

But sad thing about it if their was express on both these lines it would take me about 55 to 60mins.

People should look at Princes Freeway at Werribee and see how many people use the freeway and then go to Werribee Railway station and see how many people use the train service.

Only small number of people would be using the train services from Werribee compare to lots people driving on the Princes Freeway and this is on Sunday night
Melbourne's weekend traffic is rivalling weekday congestion, VicRoads data shows.
Figures released by VicRoads show road congestion between 11:00am and 2:00pm on Saturdays and Sundays in the city is worse than at the same time during the week.
Across the whole day, the number of cars on the road on Saturday is about 86 per cent of traffic levels on a weekday. That figure drops to 75 per cent on Sundays.
Director of road operations at VicRoads Dean Zabrieszach said the weekend traffic on Melbourne's key roads is getting worse.
"On weekends, the growing trend in travel activity is attributable to additional population, and hence traffic volumes, additional recreational activity, and to an extent additional business and commercial activity compared to a decade ago," he said.
The figures have prompted the Victorian Government to urge more people to embrace public transport.
"A lot of these people are just coming in to shop, others are just meeting friends for coffee or going to the theatre," Victoria's Public Transport Minister Terry Mulder said.
"There's plenty of capacity on the public transport network and I would suggest it's a lot quicker to get on board a bus, a train or a tram then it is to try to travel on a number of these roads."
Mr Mulder says a Ministerial Advisory Council is already investigating solutions.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-24/m ... on/5475554
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It about time that state government listen to what people want and the is fast and quick public transport.

Most people from outer suburban areas do not want use stopping stations service - an example of this is at Pakenham station:
People have a choice between Metro train (stopping all stations) or V/Line service (express) and most people going to the city will pick the express train (V/Line service) over an Stopping all station service(metro).


That why train line needs a two tier service :
Etham (Hurstbridge every 2nd train) stopping all stations to Heidelberg then Ivanhoe and then Fairfield and then may be Westgarth and then Clifton Hill and then express to Jolimont and then to Flinders street (every 20 mins)

5 mins after the express service from Heidelberg and then run stopping all station from Heidelberg to the City (every 20 mins)
with a two tier service


Or at lease in off-peak - every train to/from Hurstbridge should run as the following: stopping all stations to Heidelberg then Ivanhoe and then Fairfield and then may be Westgarth and then Clifton Hill and then express to Jolimont and then to Flinders street and then 3- 5 mins after have a stopping all station from Heidelberg to the City

with this solution - there be lease one express train every 40 mins part
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

If an express journey is so important to you, it shouldn't stop at so many stations. Heidelberg - Clifton Hill - Jolimont. If it is going to stop at any more than that, it may as well stop at all stations.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by system improver »

RailwayBus wrote:...Now it is 6 trains per hour....
Big deal! It was six trains per hour 90 years ago after electrification was introduced. Over the past decades, with first the introduction of 15 minutes frequencies it went to 8 and four years ago 10 with the introduction of 10 minutes frequencies of the Frankston line.

Rationalisations of service cuts never get you anywhere, they should be called for what they are - cuts not boosts. You could make a case for many stations of the Frankston line will little patronage to only get a train every 20 minutes i.e. every second trains runs express through that station. After all, you could claim that they too have had it "too good for too long". You could cut back the terminus of almost every tram line - after all, hardly anyone goes there. And bus routes, you could rationalise getting rid of a good number of them (think the 605). But people rely on these services. Only ignorant bean counters would entertain such propositions.

Even 90 years ago, there were more peak services to Malvern than there are now. Running peak services at up to 13 minutes intervals is just moronic. The worst part about it is that it would be so easily fixed.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by RailwayBus »

system improver wrote: But people rely on these services.
You're making it sound like Malvern has either lost its train service entirely, or that what it has barely exists.

If people can't conduct their day to day lives around a train every 10 minutes for most of the day, seven days a week, there is something wrong.

It's one station, and it still has one of the best services provided on the whole system. It isn't by any means hard done by.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by system improver »

RailwayBus wrote:...
If people can't conduct their day to day lives around a train every 10 minutes for most of the day, seven days a week, there is something wrong...
Except you "conveniently" forget to mention that the frequencies are not 10 minutes at pm peak times from the city, and are not less as you would except but worse. It's moronic - I don't care what you say. If whoever is doing the timetabling can't get the basics right then they should try another occupation.
Last edited by system improver on Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metro Trains 27 July 2014 changes

Post by matthew »

RailwayBus wrote:If an express journey is so important to you, it shouldn't stop at so many stations. Heidelberg - Clifton Hill - Jolimont. If it is going to stop at any more than that, it may as well stop at all stations.
It would be OK if train stops at Ivanhoe and Fairfield

so it be Heidelberg -Ivanhoe - Fairfield- Clifton Hill - Jolimont
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