Ferry Observations for 2021

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Fleet Lists »

Here we go for 2021.
Living in the Shire.
moa999
Posts: 2923
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by moa999 »

Email from Sealink/Lane Cove Ferry
Lane Cove to City ferry service to continue in 2021

We're happy to announce that the Lane Cove Ferry has been re-instated with no changes to the current timetable. Both commuter and school services will continue to operate Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays. See the full timetable here (https://www.captaincook.com.au/timetables/)

Transport for NSW has responded to community and stakeholder feedback and has agreed to continue providing assistance to us to keep the service running.
So if TfNSW is now providing support, why not bring the whole thing within Opal.
Afterall we have multiple private bus operators.

Edit.. see this was well discussed in Dec in the 2020 thread.
Last edited by moa999 on Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Linto63 »

Because in theory it is only being provided with short term support and once patronage returns to a normal level the support will be withdrawn. Although in reality patronage probably won't return for a long time if ever and the political reasons that deemed it necessary to be supported will remain.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

The government has decided to keep Freshwater as the second ferry to run weekend services, the changes to be introduced mid-year which, afaik, is when the NRMA Fast Ferry contract ends. So the Emeralds will be running as the fast ferries, with the large boats providing hourly back-up weekend and public holiday tourist services. My bet is that tourists will generally prefer the faster trip and we'll be looking at the end of the Freshwaters a couple more years down the track. More politically painless that way.
Second Manly ferry saved for weekend tourism trips

Half the famed Manly ferry fleet has now been saved from the scrap heap after a campaign to preserve them.
Kaitlyn Hudson-O’Farrell
January 14, 2021 - 7:43PM
The Daily Telegraph

Half of the famed Manly ferry fleet has now been saved from the scrap heap by the NSW government following a campaign to preserve the ­famous Sydney Harbour ­vessels.

A second Manly ferry, the Freshwater, will remain on the water alongside sister ship, the Collaroy, to carry tourists across the harbour on weekends, Transport Minister Andrew Constance announced.

Mr Constance promised in November to save at least one of the Freshwater-class ­ferries and said the decision to preserve a second had ­required “balance”.

The move comes after pressure from the community, local Liberal MP James Griffin and The Daily Telegraph to keep the Manly ferry on the harbour.

“This decision is about balancing the needs of all our customers, with the community feedback and additional maintenance costs, and moving forward with a solution that we can all get on-board with,” Mr Constance said.

The fleet of four Freshwater-class ferries were commissioned between 1982 and 1988 and are the oldest ­continually serving vessels on the harbour.

The Freshwater and the Collaroy will carry tourists between Circular Quay and Manly every hour on weekends and public holidays from mid-year while a fleet of new Emerald-class boats will ­service commuters as frequently as every 15 minutes during the week.

Mr Griffin thanked Mr Constance for listening to the community’s feedback.

“This decision strikes the right balance between keeping the grand old boats for tourists and residents who want to enjoy the scenic trip to Manly on weekends and public holidays and a more frequent service that commuters want during the week,” he said.

The Freshwater will soon come out of service to receive major maintenance ahead of its new role.

The remaining three ferries will continue to run services until the Narrabeen and Queenscliff officially ­retire in the middle of the year and the Emerald Class vessels begin operating.

Mr Constance said the new generation of smaller ferries would suit the needs of commuters better.

“Weekday commuters, who want faster and more ­frequent services, will be served exclusively by the new generation Emerald class ­vessels, which are fully ­accessible, more energy ­efficient and cheaper to run,” he said.

Plans to farewell the Narrabeen and Queenscliff ferries will be announced later this year.
gascoyne
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:10 am
Location: Sydney. Where else?

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by gascoyne »

Using the Emerald ferries on the Manly run isn't as simple as it sounds. I understand that the newer Emeralds, which are intended for that route, can't cope with heavy swells or even moderate swells. Their clearance above the water between the hulls is only about one metre so there will be water pounding on the underside there. The six older Emeralds have even less clearance. This repeated pounding will shorten the life of the vessels.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

gascoyne wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:22 am Using the Emerald ferries on the Manly run isn't as simple as it sounds. I understand that the newer Emeralds, which are intended for that route, can't cope with heavy swells or even moderate swells. Their clearance above the water between the hulls is only about one metre so there will be water pounding on the underside there. The six older Emeralds have even less clearance. This repeated pounding will shorten the life of the vessels.
The new Emeralds have wave-piercing hulls in order to ride bigger seas, so are completely different from the earlier class. The earlier ones can still be used as reserve boats on the Manly run on the majority of normal fine days but heavy weather operation will be the preserve of the new boats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-piercing_hull
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by jpp42 »

gascoyne wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:22 am Using the Emerald ferries on the Manly run isn't as simple as it sounds. I understand that the newer Emeralds, which are intended for that route, can't cope with heavy swells or even moderate swells.
Don't believe everything you hear from the unions. The Emerald Mk. II are specifically designed for the route, and will handle almost all conditions just fine, just like the similar Jetcats, Manly Fast Ferries, and numerous other ocean-going catamarans from other operators over the past few decades. There will still be a few cancellations a year, and while technically the Freshwater class ferries can handle heavier seas, in the heaviest seas they were cancelled anyway due to surge at Manly wharf making berthing unsafe. The result is that the number of cancellations is expected to be pretty much the same, and for the same reasons - surge at Manly Wharf, nothing to do with whether either class of ferry can "handle" the swells at the heads themselves.

Like any other mode of transport, the main driver here is to increase or maintain high frequency - desired by commuters - while using the right size vehicle for the actual expected patronage. The Manly ferries have been vastly over capacity for some time on their normal daily commutes - patronage has decreased substantially. The two ferries being retained for surge capacity on summer weekends, the one area where the Freshwaters have been fit for purpose recently, will be more than enough.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Linto63 »

Good news, NSW taxpayers will be forking out an extra $4,000 per student per annum so precious private school children can get home 20 minutes earlier to start playing Xbox. Seriously?

NSW government backflips on axing Lane Cove ferries
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by boronia »

It is a shame in a way that they keep referring to the new ferries as "Emeralds". The average passenger, Labor MP or union official will never grasp the concept of them being of different construction.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

If TfNSW thinks Balmoral is on the peninsula, they need a street directory.
Manly ferries: New vessels named after popular Sydney Harbour beaches

Transport chiefs are set to announce the names of the controversial new vessels that are replacing the iconic Manly ferries.
Jim O’Rourke

February 3, 2021 - 12:00AM
Manly Daily

The new Emerald-class (Series 2) ferries — seen here being delivered at Newcastle Harbour on the deck of a cargo ship last year — that are set to replace the iconic Manly ferries in the middle of the year, have been given names by state transport authorities. Picture: David Swift

The smaller, faster and more frequent vessels set to replace Sydney’s iconic Many ferries will be named after some of Sydney’s Harbour’s most popular beaches, it can be revealed.

Three Emerald-class ferries, which are expected to take over the Manly to Circular Quay run in the middle of the year, will be called Fairlight, Clontarf and Balmoral, Transport for NSW confirmed to the Manly Daily.
NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance checks out the new Manly ferries during a visit Birdon Marine at Port Macquarie last year. Picture: Nathan Edwards

NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance sparked a controversy, and a community campaign to save the old Freshwater-class ferries, last year when he announced they would be replaced by the smaller craft.

Mr Constance argued that the 40-year-old 1000-plus seat double-decker ferries were no longer economically viable, were not carrying enough passengers and were difficult to maintain.

But critics of the ferry change said the three, twin-hulled, 400-seat Emerald-class (Series 2) ferries would not hold enough people and were not capable of operating across the Sydney Heads in a large swell.
Fairlight Beach. Picture: Manly Daily

It was also feared that getting rid of the old ferries would reduce tourism numbers to Manly. The Government has confirmed earlier this month that two Freshwater class ferries will remain in service on weekends and public holidays until at least 2023.

When the Emerald ferries arrive, 328 services will be added to the Manly timetable each week, ferries will arrive every 10 minutes and the trip to Circular Quay will take 22 minutes instead of half an hour.
Clontarf Beach. Picture: NCA NewsWire/Dylan Coker

“Sydney is known for its beautiful beaches so it’s fitting these new ferries will bear the

names of some of our most well-known harbour beach hang outs,” said Transport for NSW

Acting Deputy Secretary Howard Collins.

“The current fleet servicing Manly Wharf is named after northern beaches so the new

names are in keeping with the beaches theme, only this time the focus is on harbour

beaches rather than ocean beaches.”

The new generation ferries are still undergoing a final fit out at Port Macquarie, but their main structures are complete and all their engines and components are installed.

They will still have to undergo extensive sea trials before they are put into service around mid-2021.

Mr Collins has previously pointed out that there was a misconception that the Emeralds can’t handle heavy conditions around Sydney Heads.
The new Emerald-class ferries are expected to cope with the large swells across Sydney Heads. Picture: Bradley Hunter

“There are currently six Emeralds in the fleet and these often travel to Manly when a Freshwater is unavailable or if there is high demand,” he said last October.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by boronia »

he smaller, faster and more frequent vessels set to replace Sydney’s iconic Many ferries will be named after some of Sydney’s Harbour’s most popular beaches, it can be revealed.
AFIK all three are in Sydney Harbour.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:45 am
AFIK all three are in Sydney Harbour.
Well it has been a tradition to name Manly ferries after places in Manly-Warringah, except for the Aboriginal names of some of the B boats early last century. The tradition has broken down on the fast boats of recent years.

It looks like they're answering your concern by referring to them as "series 2".
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by boronia »

Perhaps it is pay-back for all the unproven criticism of their suitability for the role, from the peninsular dwellers. LOL

I still think a completely different class name would be preferable to ongoing reference to the Emeralds, which continues to confuse people. "Fairlight class" would have some Manly connection (wasn''t one of the hydrofoils "Fairlight"?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Fleet Lists »

Which I have seen referred to as either just Fairlight or Fairlight II
https://web.archive.org/web/20071109163 ... ghtii.html

The original Fairlight was a 1878 Paddle Steamer on the Manly run.
Living in the Shire.
Nugget
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:17 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Nugget »

It's so strange that people get all bent up over the name of a class of ferries. It's very rare that ferries are even given a class in overseas applications. They are given a job and if they can do it all well and good.

As I understand once they start using the newer cats on the route they can keep running at the same sea states as the current non-fast ferries just at lower speeds.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

This is the third Manly ferry named Farlight. I agree that calling them the Fairlight class would be preferable. Today's spin doctors typically can't defend this type of accusation. Once, the agency would have released some technical information to demonstrate that they are a different type of vessel but they seem to assume that people are too stupid to understand such things. The fact that nowadays you get standard superstructures on different hulls, so they all look the same, doesn't help.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Fleet Lists »

Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Fleet Lists »

tonyp wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:14 pm This is the third Manly ferry named Farlight. I agree that calling them the Fairlight class would be preferable. Today's spin doctors typically can't defend this type of accusation. Once, the agency would have released some technical information to demonstrate that they are a different type of vessel but they seem to assume that people are too stupid to understand such things. The fact that nowadays you get standard superstructures on different hulls, so they all look the same, doesn't help.
To most people except the enthusiasts, it does not matter what class the ferries are so it is not a matter of thinking that people are fools. Do you have to criticise every decision that is made?
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:37 pm
To most people except the enthusiasts, it does not matter what class the ferries are so it is not a matter of thinking that people are fools. Do you have to criticise every decision that is made?

There is no criticism from me, I'm one of the ones defending these vessels!! What I'm pointing out is that the government is getting a backlash based on a public misconception, which Transport is making little effort to correct, that these boats are the same as the existing Emeralds. By the way, classification is perfectly normal in public transport fleets, otherwise how do we distinguish between different types of trains, buses etc? In marine practice, vessel classifications tend to take the name of the lead ship in the class. Given the public misconception and the consequent adverse PR consequences for the government, you'd think it would be in their interests to give these three vessels a different classification.

Anyway we now apparently have it: "Emerald (Series 2)". Good for the enthusiasts, almost illegible for the general public.
Linto63
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Linto63 »

What it is, is you whinging about yet another decision from an organisation that you clearly loathe. Make a point fine, but you just go on and on, it's tedious. :roll:

Joe public couldn't give a stuff what class of the ferry he is travelling on, all he wants to know is will it get him to where he wants to go. Bit like me catching a taxi, couldn't care if a Ford, Nissan or Toyota turns up, as long as it is punctual, reasonably clean and is going to get me where I want to go safely.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by boronia »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:37 pm To most people except the enthusiasts, it does not matter what class the ferries are so it is not a matter of thinking that people are fools. Do you have to criticise every decision that is made?
The public is probably very aware by now of what an Emerald class ferry is. Labor stalwarts, the unions, and the STMF campaigners are very adept at hiding the fact that the "Mk 2"s will be different to the "Mk 1"s.

Postings on Facebook and in media reports continue to brainwash the public into believing the new Manly ferries are the same as the inner harbour version. This might not have occurred if the term had never been used from the outset.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:24 pm What it is, is you whinging about yet another decision from an organisation that you clearly loathe.
You're so easily triggered! Actually I'm defending TfNSW whom I think are pretty-much on top of the game with regard to ferries and trains. There are clearly different competencies in different sections of what is a big organisation. The point of discussion in this thread is their frustrating reluctance to defend in detail one of their better initiatives. It's important to deal with disinformation because if that gets out of hand, it can undermine the benefits of a worthy initiative and, eventually, undermine a government's prospects of success at an election. The opponents of these positive improvements to the Manly ferry shouldn't be allowed to dominate the public agenda. The government needs to keep selling the changes better.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Fleet Lists »

Today's spin doctors typically can't defend this type of accusation. Once, the agency would have released some technical information to demonstrate that they are a different type of vessel but they seem to assume that people are too stupid to understand such things. The fact that nowadays you get standard superstructures on different hulls, so they all look the same, doesn't help.
Is that defending them? Doesn't sound like it to me.
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:47 pm
Is that defending them? Doesn't sound like it to me.
I'm zeroing in on the agency's (and Minister's office's) media practices there. That's not a reflection on the whole agency, just on its ability to speak for and defend decisions.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21567
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by boronia »

Similarly, the "too wide" trains and "too tall" ferries can be easily explained, but no responses from Transport.The critics continue to exploit these apparent "admissions of guilt".
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”