T3 from 2024

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T3 from 2024

Post by marcnut1996 »

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... -confirmed
Rail options for west of Bankstown station in 2024 now confirmed
Published 8 Dec 2020
Transport for NSW has today released a community consultation report which confirms the rail option that has been chosen, giving customers certainty as to how train services will operate for west of Bankstown stations from 2024.

The changes, which are required as part of the integration of Sydney Metro City & Southwest in 2024, will ensure direct services to and from the city will continue to be available for the majority of customers.

Transport for NSW will now progress the preferred service option into the next phase of planning and development.

Transport for NSW Chief Operations Officer Howard Collins said the consultation report follows an extensive community consultation process earlier this year, with customers asked to provide feedback on three proposed rail service options.

“We thank the community for their strong interest in this project,” Mr Collins said.

“More than 600 items of feedback were received and it is obvious that direct services to the City was the most important thing for most customers.

“It’s therefore clear that based on this feedback and our analysis of Opal travel data, that the preferred option two, which provides a direct link to the city for close to 90 per cent of west of Bankstown customers, is the most effective solution.”
Mr Collins said Transport for NSW will continue to listen to the community as the service plans are developed.

“This will involve working with key stakeholders and incorporating Opal data and customer feedback, to ensure we balance the needs of west of Bankstown customers, as well as those travelling on other parts of the network,” Mr Collins said.

Transport for NSW will continue to update the community as the project progresses.

For more detailed information on the planned changes, and to view the community consultation report, customers should visit https://yoursay.transport.nsw.gov.au/west-of-bankstown

KEY CHANGES PLANNED FOR WEST OF BANKSTOWN CUSTOMERS IN 2024 INCLUDE:

• Services currently operating between Liverpool and the City Circle via Bankstown will instead run via Regents Park and Lidcombe meaning:

o direct services to and from the City Circle via Lidcombe will be available for Liverpool to Sefton, Regents Park and Berala customers. This will be the fastest direct travel option for trips to and from the City.

o direct connectivity for most Southwest customers to the Inner West and improved links to Parramatta.

o more weekly train services to and from key Inner West stations.

• T3 shuttle services to operate between Lidcombe and Bankstown. Yagoona and Birrong customers can change at Bankstown for turn-up-and-go Metro services or travel to Lidcombe or Regents Park for access to other train lines.

• Regents Park will be the main interchange point for customers wishing to switch between the two branch lines.
Last edited by marcnut1996 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Linto63
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Yet in the future they are planning a direct connection between Liverpool and Bankstown to Waterloo, which means there must be enough demand on this corridor to justify that.
It's on a long term plan, doesn't mean it will happen though.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:05 am So somebody who wants to go between Liverpool and Bankstown to Waterloo will change trains twice - at Regents Park and Bankstown. Yet in the future they are planning a direct connection between Liverpool and Bankstown to Waterloo, which means there must be enough demand on this corridor to justify that.
I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware, Waterloo will predominantly be a residential precinct with limited employment opportunities, so I doubt if there would be much demand to travel there from Liverpool and stations in between, or anywhere else for that matter. If the metro is ever extended from Bankstown to Liverpool, and that's by no means certain, it will certainly provide a more direct journey to the CBD, but with a limited catchment in between. They will have to weigh up the cost of the extension against the anticipated demand.

The Community Consultation Report based on feedback and Opal data clearly shows that 90% of commuters west of Bankstown are heading to the CBD and the overwhelming preference is for a direct journey without the need to interchange. Anecdotal evidence suggests that even the current direct journey from Liverpool to the CBD via Bankstown isn't as popular as the T2 route via Granville and the Inner West Line. It's little wonder that the reinstatement of the slightly faster direct route via Regents Park was preferred over a route to Bankstown to interchange to the metro. This will have significant implications for future metro lines such as Metro West, which will rely on interchange from T1 at Westmead/Parramatta and T9 at North Strathfield to boost patronage to the CBD. There's an old adage in business that you always give the customer what they want - or suffer the consequences.

To demonstrate my point, I've analysed the current timetables to show that there is little advantage in forcing commuters to change trains to reach the CBD for an allegedly faster journey by metro. The journey times are based on the fastest and slowest depending on the stopping pattern.

Liverpool to Central via Bankstown -
Fast -53m
Slow - 63m

Liverpool to Central via Regents Park -
Fast -52m
Slow - 56m

Liverpool to Central via Granville -
Fast -59m

Liverpool to Central via interchange to Bankstown Metro -
Fast - 54m (allowing 3m interchange)
Slow - 59m (ditto)

You will note that there is only minimal difference between the respective journey times for each route, so you can understand a preference for a single seat journey without interchange. It should also be bourne in mind that the introduction of ATO on the existing network will further reduce journey times by at least another 4 or 5 minutes as well as increasing frequencies.

The positive thing about this outcome is that the government is at last acknowledging the community response and acting upon it, although admittedly it was their preferred option anyway.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by tonyp »

To clarify my post, I was referring to any people who wanted to ride between Liverpool and any of the stations between Bankstown and Waterloo, not just to Waterloo.

The reason for the proposed Liverpool extension of the metro is, not just a connection to Liverpool but to connect and open up employment and residential precincts at Bankstown Airport and Chipping Norton. The extension would be about 10 km long with two intermediate stops and, at the metro's average speed, the journey would take 10 minutes from Bankstown. Add to this the projected metro journey time between Central and Bankstown of 28 minutes, all stops, and you're looking at a trip between Liverpool and Central of about 38 minutes. That would be a devastating advantage over the times for suburban services listed by Transtopic, including 63 minutes for the equivalent all-stops Bankstown line journey via Regents Park. (You can't compare express services because some suburbs then miss out on a service, but even that time is still 53 minutes.) I can't imagine ATO etc closing those gigantic journey time gaps of 15 to 20 minutes and more. Rapid transit systems aren't called that for nothing and they do it with the convenience of stopping at every stop.

In the meantime of course, it is certainly sensible to retain semi-express services from Liverpool to Sydney, probably best via Lidcombe, as long as you don't want to get off at missed stops like Burwood, then the calculation falls apart. Nevertheless, the journey times don't vary that much over the different routes. It's about 25 minutes Liverpool to Bankstown, then 28 minutes to Central on the metro, so that's about 53 minutes plus a 3 minute transfer.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by grog »

Looking at the current timetable, I doubt they will be semi-express, and even if they are, they won’t skip stations like Strathfield, Burwood, Ashfield or Newtown for that matter - all T2 trains stop at those stations during the week and I’d expect that to continue for these new services.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Nugget »

Transtopic wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:49 am I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware, Waterloo will predominantly be a residential precinct with limited employment opportunities, so I doubt if there would be much demand to travel there from Liverpool and stations in between, or anywhere else for that matter. If the metro is ever extended from Bankstown to Liverpool, and that's by no means certain, it will certainly provide a more direct journey to the CBD, but with a limited catchment in between. They will have to weigh up the cost of the extension against the anticipated demand.
Waterloo is also meant to service the Australian Technology Park precinct which is two blocks from the station precinct, although ATP would be equidistant to Redfern and Waterloo and possibly closer once the southern entrance to Redfern is completed.

Although not finalised, one of the towers at the Waterloo precinct is meant to be commercial and the podium is meant to be commercial and retail.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by jpp42 »

So according to that report, the "T3 Bankstown Line" will still be used for the City services via Lidcombe, Regents Park, Sefton, and Liverpool - even though it doesn't run through Bankstown at all? Maybe a name change would be useful?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Fleet Lists »

When they sit down to to more specific details, I suspect they will come up with a more meaningful name.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by boronia »

The "T3 Leightonfield Line" just doesn't seem as attractive asa name, does it?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

The backwoods line?
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by stupid_girl »

jpp42 wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:33 pm So according to that report, the "T3 Bankstown Line" will still be used for the City services via Lidcombe, Regents Park, Sefton, and Liverpool - even though it doesn't run through Bankstown at all? Maybe a name change would be useful?
https://yoursay.transport.nsw.gov.au/52 ... 4/download
The report mentions that "Transport for NSW will, in due course, review naming of railway services and lines prior to Sydney Metro services beginning in 2024. Prior customer feedback will be studied as part of this review.".
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by swtt »

T3 Regents Park line.

Lidcome to Bankstown or Liverpool via Regents Park
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by marcnut1996 »

I think Regents Park line sounds fitting too, given that "via Regents Park" has been used in the past decade, and Regents Park will continue to be the interchange between both branches after 2024.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Fleet Lists »

Yes I like that option too
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Swift »

As a kid in the 80s I used to hear that suburb on the city station prerecorded announcements and it stood out.
I think that's likely to be the new name.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Linto63 »

Probably a reasonable chance that the Leppington service will be diverted to operate via the shorter Regents Park route (10 vs 14kms, 7 vs 8 stops) and the service via Granville become the Liverpool terminator. Either way the T2 route will need to be adjusted, the additional service will effectively be an extension of the existing all stops T2 services to Homebush / Parramatta.

The Parramatta T2 extensions may be axed with Harris Park reverting to being a T1 stop and the all stops Inner West service curtailed at Ashfield, with the Liverpool terminator to call at Redfern, Ashfield then all stops.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Fleet Lists »

There are quite a few such options so I guess we will have to wait and see what the final outcome is.
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Re: Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:45 pm Probably a reasonable chance that the Leppington service will be diverted to operate via the shorter Regents Park route (10 vs 14kms, 7 vs 8 stops) and the service via Granville become the Liverpool terminator. Either way the T2 route will need to be adjusted, the additional service will effectively be an extension of the existing all stops T2 services to Homebush / Parramatta.

The Parramatta T2 extensions may be axed with Harris Park reverting to being a T1 stop and the all stops Inner West service curtailed at Ashfield, with the Liverpool terminator to call at Redfern, Ashfield then all stops.
They could have the via Regents Park service extended to Campbelltown there's the return of the direct single train service between Campbelltown and Liverpool witch has been a Glenfield cross platform transfer since they rerouted the Cumberland line to Leppington in 2017
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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by swtt »

You could almost forget about the current T2 line getting faster. The recent 2017 TT only saw the trains slowed down even further with the former faster trains gain additional stops at Newtown and Burwood, if not more during the peaks.

It is also the sole line stopping at Lidcombe during the peaks.

All this was done so that you could fit more trains in, and not have them catch up to all stoppers.

Wherever they divert trains, we're getting precariously close to the 20 trains/hr capacity, at which point you'll need to make every train stop all stations from Lidcombe into the City.
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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by rogf24 »

It'll probably be too much of a hassle for some people, but I would imagine it might be faster to get to the CBD from Lidcombe by taking the Olympic Park shuttle and then transferring to the Metro West.
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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by Fleet Lists »

That is if that shuttle stays - I have doubts that it will. But the Metro West wont be there for another four years after the T3 changes so who knows what other changes will have taken place during that time.
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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by stupid_girl »

rogf24 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:06 pm It'll probably be too much of a hassle for some people, but I would imagine it might be faster to get to the CBD from Lidcombe by taking the Olympic Park shuttle and then transferring to the Metro West.
The two Olympic Park stations are not co-located.
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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by swtt »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:26 pm That is if that shuttle stays - I have doubts that it will. But the Metro West wont be there for another four years after the T3 changes so who knows what other changes will have taken place during that time.
Why would the Lidcombe - OP shuttle disappear at any time?
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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by Transtopic »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:45 pmT
Probably a reasonable chance that the Leppington service will be diverted to operate via the shorter Regents Park route (10 vs 14kms, 7 vs 8 stops) and the service via Granville become the Liverpool terminator. Either way the T2 route will need to be adjusted, the additional service will effectively be an extension of the existing all stops T2 services to Homebush / Parramatta.

The Parramatta T2 extensions may be axed with Harris Park reverting to being a T1 stop and the all stops Inner West service curtailed at Ashfield, with the Liverpool terminator to call at Redfern, Ashfield then all stops.
I agree it would make sense to divert the Leppington service via the more direct Regents Park route rather than via Granville, with the latter service starting/terminating at Liverpool. It would share part of the Regents Park route with the Bankstown to Lidcombe shuttle. The Regents Park route has after all been called the Main South Line for some years.

The Leppington via Regents Park service could be operated in the peak at 6tph and Liverpool via Granville at 6tph together with the 4tph T2 Parramatta starters/terminators. The current frequency in the morning peak for the T2 Line is 14tph (8tph ex Leppington + 4tph ex Parramatta + 2tph ex Ashfield). I understand that the current maximum frequency on the Inner West Local (T2) is 16tph with the mixed stopping pattern, so if the Parramatta service is retained on T2, which appears to be the case under the preferred Option 2, then the Ashfield service would have to be cut. After further assessment by TfNSW, of course that mix could change. When ATO is introduced, that could add another 2-4tph with the mixed pattern. I doubt if the semi-express services from Leppington and Liverpool would be changed to an all stops pattern to increase slots.

The problem with cancelling the T2 Parramatta starters/terminators and Harris Park reverting to a T1 stop, is that it would upset the single express pattern on the T1 Main, which skips Harris Park and Granville and is operating at its maximum capacity of 20tph, although this will potentially increase to 24tph with ATO. To cancell it altogether would mean that the stations between Redfern and Strathfield and Strathfield and Granville would lose their direct service to Parramatta and Harris Park would become an orphan, serviced only by the infrequent T5 Cumberland Line, without a direct connection or even convenient interchange point to reach the CBD. This highlights the inadequacy of the current track infrastructure to cope with the level of demand for services on the existing network.

It also brings into focus the urgent need for completion of sextuplication of the Western/South Lines between Homebush and Granville, Metro West notwithstanding. A proposed track amplification scheme previously prepared by TfNSW in 2013 is shown below.

https://i.imgur.com/ncvg9dg.png

However, in view of Metro West now being underway, I would make some changes to what was then proposed.

- I would leave Homebush Station as is, except for renumbering the platforms from 1 to 6 (currently 2 to 7), as the redundant platform 1 faces the
freight line loop.

- Retain platforms 1 & 2 at Flemington, which were proposed to be closed, and realign the track layout through the 2 island platforms and the Main
without platforms (6 tracks altogether).

- Instead of realigning the Up and Down Suburban tracks to a tunnel portal between Flemington and Lidcombe to a new underground track pair on
the northern side of the rail corridor, realign them with the Up and Down Main on the surface.

- Realign the Up and Down Main tracks in parallel, to the tunnel portal to the new underground track pair.

- No changes to surface tracks at Lidcombe or Auburn.

- Tunnel portal as shown from new underground track pair to surface between Auburn and Clyde.

- Although it was proposed to close Clyde, this would be up for debate, but I am more inclined to closure since the Carlingford Line closed and it is
so close to Granville.

- Realignment of tracks at Granville Junction including new track pair as proposed so that T2 Old South Line is separated from T1 Western Line.

- Grade separation of T5 Cumberland Line Y link on Western Line between Merrylands and Harris Park.

- Reinstatement of Harris Park platforms 3 & 4 and closure as proposed of platforms 1 & 2 (p 3 &4 to be redesignated p 1 & 2).

- Reclassification of track pair from Granville Junction and through platforms 1 & 2 at Parramatta and beyond, to Western Main (centre track pair
after Westmead underpass) and through platforms 3 & 4 to Western Suburban (outer track pair after Westmead underpass).

This project will allow for the T2 via Granville ex Liverpool and the suggested T3 via Regents Park ex Leppington, as well as extending the Bankstown to Lidcombe shuttle to an all stations service to the City Circle as previously existed, to become a completely separate sector.

The T1 Western Line tracks west of Granville are grossly underutilised at present with only 26 tph through Parramatta's 4 platforms, when with ATO and sextuplication as discussed, they could potentially handle up to 48tph. This would include increased T5 Cumberland Line services. However, this will be constrained by the need to also accommodate T9 Northern Line and CCN Intercity services from Strathfield to the CBD.

Nevertheless, the sextuplication and ATO will allow for significantly increased T1 services on both the Suburban and Main Line tracks, separated from T2, with the Suburban tracks catering for all stations services from St Marys and/or Blacktown to Burwood, then express to Redfern (merging with T9 at Strathfield) and the Main tracks, which will include the new track pair between Granville and Flemington, catering for a single pattern for outer Suburban and Intercity express (including CCN) services directly to Sydney Terminal. There would be no conflicting crossover movements.

I can also see the Leppington services eventually being rerouted to the CBD via the T8 East Hills Line when capacity will be increased through the City Circle with the freeing up of paths released by the Bankstown Line metro conversion.




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Re: T3 from 2024

Post by boxythingy »

Will seamless transfers be a feature of the timetable though, waiting any more than 10min (for any part of the day) for a connection just doesn't incentivise people to use Public Transport
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