WS Airport Metro

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Speedbird1
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Speedbird1 »

The Outer Sydney Orbital is both motorway and freight railway. The Western Sydney Freight Line announced is a line connecting the orbital freight line at Luddenham to the area near the M7, and ultimately to the SSFL at Leightonfield.
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Speedbird1 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:45 pm The Outer Sydney Orbital is both motorway and freight railway. The Western Sydney Freight Line announced is a line connecting the orbital freight line at Luddenham to the area near the M7, and ultimately to the SSFL at Leightonfield.
Thanks, it's very unclear in that level of documentation. I knew there was at least a freight line between St Marys and WSA but I thought it followed the metro.
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Transtopic
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:41 am I don't think they should ever merge metro lines. Painful lessons from the suburban system should cause them to shy away from that forever.
I'd agree with you if the current and likely future demand matched the inherent line capacity. However, I can't see that 30tph on each of the metro lines servicing WSA and the Aerotropolis would be warranted either now or in the future. 30tph on a merged metro line, that's a train every 2 minutes, should be more than enough for the likely patronage.

It would be a simple merge/branch north of the airport, which could be grade separated avoiding crossing conflicts, instead of having two track pairs running in parallel from where they meet to the airport. The spare track pair between the Aerotropolis and airport, released by merging the metro lines, could then be utilised by the SWRL extension directly to the airport, without the need to interchange for just one stop.

In this scenario, only four platforms would be needed at the Aerotropolis and not six. Provision should also be made for a turnback on the metro line at the Aerotropolis, as not all metro services are likely to continue on to Macarthur when that section is eventually built. A turnback will still be needed in the interim period anyway. A turnback for the SWRL would be at the airport where it would terminate, with the metro continuing as a single track pair to the north where it would branch to St Marys and Parramatta. I know you don't like it, but that's a sensible outcome IMO, while maintaining the integrity of the two systems.

You can't compare merging/branching on the legacy suburban system with a single merge/branch on a metro line. In the former instance, there are multiple lines merging/branching with a single line through the CBD, which limits the potential line capacity of each branch. In the case of the metro lines in the Sydney context, I can only see a frequency of 30tph being warranted through the CBD core on a single line, which is unlikely to be realised without branching on the outer reaches of the line, although there shouldn't be any more than one branch at either end. I can't see how difficult that would be to manage with computerised automatic train control. For example, it's difficult to see how more than the currently proposed 15tph on the Bankstown metro line would ever be warranted, having regard to the future demand. Similarly on Metro Northwest. It shouldn't be forgotten that in the initial planning for the metro system, it was proposed to branch the lines from the CBD core.

One of the few exceptions I would make is with Metro West, which may well warrant an ultimate frequency of 30tph on a single line between our two CBDs. However, I doubt if such a frequency would be warranted all the way to Badgerys Creek if the line is extended and provision should be made for a permanent turnback at Westmead, where half the services would start/terminate.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:32 pm
The North South Rail Line is a passenger rail line connecting St Marys with Macarthur. The line will run from the Main West Line (T1 Western Line) to the Main South Line (T8 Airport and South Line). This rail line will connect to the new Western Sydney Nancy Bird Walton Airport, Aerotropolis and surrounding business areas.

The South West Rail Link Extension will extend the existing passenger rail line from Leppington Station to the Aerotropolis.
Would there be any advantage in running the Cumberland line as a loop service via St Marys once it is connected to this new NSRL?
If I'm interpreting your comment correctly, you may be under the misapprehension that the NSRL will "connect" directly with the existing Western Line at St Marys, which it won't. It will be a separate incompatible metro line with underground platforms at St Marys which will require interchange to and from the Sydney Trains' system. It is proposed to ultimately extend the North-South metro line from St Marys to Schofields on the Richmond line, where it will also interchange with an extended Metro Northwest from Tallawong. It doesn't appear that the metro lines will allow for through running at Schofields and will be separate.

So to answer your question, a continuous Cumberland Line loop wouldn't be possible with the two incompatible systems. That unfortunately is one of the missed opportunities, which would have been possible if the new line was an extension of the existing Sydney Trains' network. The best we could hope for under current planning is an extended Cumberland Line from the Aerotropolis to St Marys via Liverpool, Parramatta and Blacktown and interchanging with the metro line at both ends.

In response to boxythingy's comments with regard to congestion between Merrylands and Harris Park, I can't understand why this is such a problem, although I concede that the flat junction with the Western Line obviously doesn't help. Having said that, there are only a maximum of 7tph in the peak between Harris Park and Parramatta on the Western Main tracks through platforms 3 & 4 at Parramatta. That's 4tph T2 starters/terminators and 3tph T5 through services to and from Blacktown. All of the T1 services, including BM intercity, use platforms 1 & 2 at Parramatta (20tph).

It probably doesn't help with T2 services starting/terminating at Parramatta. Perhaps the answer is to extend them to and from Blacktown or cancel them altogether when Metro West is up and running.
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

In planning matters, you never say never. That's a mistake many have made in the past which is why we have the messes we have to deal with today.

Doesn't the Cumberland line go up the Richmond line, not the Western Line? I think it does just fine as it is. One service they could revisit is the Rivers that used to run between, iirc, Wyong and St Marys. That was an excellent service but probably premature for the demand at the time.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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The 801 that will run between the airport and Liverpool when it opens would need a major frequency upgrade from the 7 services a day 4 east bound and 3 west bound that it currently does
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: One service they could revisit is the Rivers that used to run between, iirc, Wyong and St Marys. That was an excellent service but probably premature for the demand at the time.
Was a once a day Wyong to St Marys service with a 2-car V set from 1996 until 2004. While there would be some demand, small compared to that headed to the CBD, and with the Main Western line already close to capacity, would be at the expense of other services. Would also need to use the North Strathfield curve which while electrified and sometimes used by ECS workings to and from Flemington depot, is part of the freight-only network. Having to allocate paths for passengers services would undo the progress made by the Northern Sydney Freight Corridor Program.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by ed24 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:35 am The 801 that will run between the airport and Liverpool when it opens would need a major frequency upgrade from the 7 services a day 4 east bound and 3 west bound that it currently does
Will be interesting to see the balance between public and private buses. I would imagine a Skybus type service would also exist to the city, Sydney Airport and perhaps a few other destinations.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... QiU8tBa9cw
Western Sydney Aerotropolis: Penrith, Liverpool, Campbelltown rapid bus routes revealed

Plans have been revealed for three rapid bus routes to cut through Western Sydney towns and shuttle thousands of travellers to the Western Sydney Airport. SEE IF YOUR HOME WILL BE IMPACTED HERE.
Jake McCallum, State Political Reporter, NewsLocal

July 3, 2020 2:52pm

dailytelegraph.com.au0:54
Liverpool is set to become Sydney's third CBD
Liverpool is shaping itself into Sydney's third CBD, encouraging more business and residential population and other things.
MORE IN newslocal

Three rapid bus transit lines will shuttle travellers and workers from Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown to the Western Sydney Aerotropolis,

And while Transport for NSW indicated that the system would use existing roads, and a preferred route had not been finalised, the initial designs have led to concerns housing estates, parkland and a massive industrial precinct will be sliced and diced to accommodate the routes.

A NSW Government document revealed the three bus routes would be operational by the opening of the Western Sydney Airport in 2026, however, concerns have been raised about the proposed routes and the impact they would have on housing estates.

The route shows it going through high-priced estates including Glenmore Park in Penrith, Blair Athol in Campbelltown, as well as Currans Hill and Harrington Park in Camden.
Rapid Bus Transit Routes will be developed from the Airport to Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown.
Rapid Bus Transit Routes will be developed from the Airport to Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown.

It also suggests suburbs including Austral, Middle Grange and Green Valley in the Liverpool local government area could be impacted.

The scoping report for Aerotropolis transit draws a line directly through the heart of as many as seven communities, while also suggesting the rapid transit routes will cut through the Scenic Hills that divide Camden and Campbelltown and the Smeaton Grange industrial estate.

Campbelltown state Labor MP Greg Warren said the proposed routes cutting through established suburbs was “alarming”.
A bus route could slice through suburbs across Western Sydney to connect the Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown CBDs to the Airport. Pic Jenny Evans
A bus route could slice through suburbs across Western Sydney to connect the Penrith, Liverpool and Campbelltown CBDs to the Airport. Pic Jenny Evans

“I need to reiterate that a rapid bus route is a tokenistic gesture at best from this South-West Sydney-despising state government,” he said.

“The train line from Western Sydney Airport to Macarthur should have been up and running when the airport opened but as it stands we may be waiting another 15-20 years for that to actually happen.


“Instead, we will be stuffed onto buses like pickles in a jar.”

Mr Warren called on the NSW Government to reveal a detailed acquisition map to “come clean and explain what homes and businesses will be impacted by this route”.
Artist impression of Western Sydney Airport
Artist impression of Western Sydney Airport

According to the scoping report, the rapid bus transit routes would be designed as a network to connect the Aerotropolis business park, Airport terminals and Metro stations within the Aerotropolis core to Campbelltown, Liverpool and Penrith.

A Transport for NSW spokeswoman said the department has started planning for the Western Sydney rapid bus routes as part of the Western Sydney City Deal.

“The rapid bus routes are proposed to operate on the existing road network, principally on major road corridors which connect key activity centres and provide fast and efficient rapid bus operations,” the spokeswoman said.

“The preferred routes have yet to be determine — route selection will be undertaken in close collaboration with Local Government and other stakeholders.

“This will consider how best to maximise community access and mitigate community impacts.”

Detailed planning and the business case for the project won’t be completed until late 2021, according to the department. The Government will contract a bus operator and develop infrastructure improvements following the completion of the plans.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

ed24 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:35 pm
Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:35 am The 801 that will run between the airport and Liverpool when it opens would need a major frequency upgrade from the 7 services a day 4 east bound and 3 west bound that it currently does
Will be interesting to see the balance between public and private buses. I would imagine a Skybus type service would also exist to the city, Sydney Airport and perhaps a few other destinations.
It's a 56km trip between the two airports or 63km between western Sydney airport and Sydney city
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by grog »

tonyp wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:37 pm Image
:lol: at them thinking that those stylised arrows are the actual bus routes!
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

grog wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:27 am
:lol: at them thinking that those stylised arrows are the actual bus routes!
The felt marker pen has a long and distinguished career in transport planning!

Map of the western Sydney orbital in the press today:

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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by 1whoknows »

"Some Mothers do Have Em".
Mrs McCallum must be sooo embarrassed.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by rogf24 »

Anyone reckon the Liverpool route will use the M12 and the T-way or will it be something different?
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

I have a feeling that the route from Campbelltown will involve a trip down The Northern road. Will it go via Harrington Park or will the route via Oran Park and Gregory Hills before entering The Northern road
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tonyp
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

Renders released today for Western Sydney Metro stations:

St Marys (metro station will be underneath existing station)
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Orchard Hills
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Luddenham
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Airport Business Park
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Airport
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Bringelly
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Stonesourscotty »

The underground work at St marys explains the drill rig at the station this past week.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by moa999 »

Much preferred the gum leaf roof design of the NW Metro stations.

How does the Airport station integrate with the terminals?
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Probably underground, like KSA
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:14 pm Probably underground, like KSA
That's correct. The Airport station box will have provision for 4 platforms, as will the Aerotropolis station. The Airport station will accommodate the metro line from the Aerotropolis, and its future extension from Macarthur, to St Marys and its future extension to Schofields as well as the longer term Metro West extension from Parramatta, while the Aerotropolis station will provide for the St Marys link and a future extension of the SWRL from Leppington. In view of the apparent disinclination towards the branching of new metro lines, it seems that an extension of Metro West from Parramatta/Westmead will terminate at the Airport and not the Aerotropolis, unless it is proposed to have a 6 platform station box at the latter. It demonstrates the absurdity of having 2 incompatible rail systems, when duplicate tracks and platform facilities wouldn't be needed with a single system. It's back to the future with the incompatible rail gauges at State borders in the past.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by grog »

It mentions interchange between SWRL, Sydney Metro Western Sydney Airport (this line) and the ‘east west rail’ (Metro West extension) at Aerotropolis, so that should see a 6 platform station there.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Transtopic wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:09 am It demonstrates the absurdity of having 2 incompatible rail systems, when duplicate tracks and platform facilities wouldn't be needed with a single system. It's back to the future with the incompatible rail gauges at State borders in the past.
The only issue with having the whole electric network converted to single deck driverless metro is the government would be wanting the ARTC to build a separate path for freight traffic
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Re: WS Airport Metro

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Even if there was single compatible system, some people would still have the need to transfer from one line to another to complete a journey. A train<-->metro transfer would be no different to a train<-->train transfer.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by tonyp »

It's not so much having a separate metro and suburban system that creates the need for multiple platforms, it's the principle of line separation - the disentanglement objective. This ideal applies as much to the suburban system as to the metro.
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Re: WS Airport Metro

Post by In Transit »

Exactly Tony. Disappointing to see this described above as absurd - I'd call it highly desirable!
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