NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

The yellow and black mother and child sticker on the rear of buses was the norm in Sydney until the introduction of the 40 when lights flash sticker in the late 90s the mother and child sticker a Queensland thing judging by back of that bus
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Very little new information here on the Bustech ZDi except that they expect to sell 60 to NSW.

https://amtil.com.au/bustechgroup-electric-bus-amtil/
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boronia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

Preserving fire service history
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:22 pm Other possible contender:

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... newsletter
Seems to be inspired by the Custom Denning. It will be interesting to see and will be a change from the total Chinese dominance of electric chassis and drives in NZ. Having locals in Australia and NZ taking to the electric scene with superior integrated products not reliant on overseas chassis should hopefully see off the Chinese, as long as local operators do the decent thing and make the right buying choice.

A good point with this NZ design is that they've picked up on the significance of the totally flat floor. There's an interesting addition to the facing seats aft of the rear axle - a modesty panel between them. That will be a distinct benefit in the land of the piupiu!

On the downside, the solar panels will achieve half of nothing and if they want to sell these buses in Australia that space will likely be needed by bigger HVAC. Unlike the Element, the front wheelarches are wastefully sacrificed to luggage racks-only like the laziest Australian designs. They've followed the Chinese down the twin (ZF) hub-motor path which will lead to higher maintenance costs in the long term as any fault will mean the whole bus goes down while they remove the entire rear axle. Also the electronic "diff" will mean higher tyre wear and rate of replacement. Let's see.

Next off the rank: Volgren's Volvo which we know has a flat floor and a very experienced chassis supplier, albeit overseas but at least not Chinese; and the as yet unknown form of the Bustech ZDi mk 2.

https://www.zemtec-ev.com/img/E-CITY-Brochure.pdf
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

You'd make Pauline Hanson blush with all your endless anti-Chinese rhetoric. :oops:
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:33 pm You'd make Pauline Hanson blush with all your endless anti-Chinese rhetoric. :oops:
Not wanting to buy their goods is a rather different outlook than not wanting them here full stop... A lot of folks are dubious of products from that part of the world, not just a handful of extremely vocal far-right individuals.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:33 pm You'd make Pauline Hanson blush with all your endless anti-Chinese rhetoric. :oops:
Not anti-Chinese, but anti-China as in the government of China, being the Chinese Communist Party. That's a world of difference, don't tar me with that brush. Most Australians of Chinese ancestry feel the same as do many other Chinese people around the world. That's a really dumb cheap shot.

The point is that Australia is under political and economic attack by China and nobody making commercial decisions regarding products of China should be regarding them impartially as though there is no issue at all to consider. I know that in many areas, especially consumer goods, there is little choice at the moment thanks to politically unwise decisions made in the past leaving us locked deeply into and dependent upon trade with China (abandoning all the hard lessons learned during the cold war with the Soviet Union and the war with Germany and Japan). You simply can't, by defintion, have a "normal" relationship with a totalitarian regime. They have a political agenda and they will ultimately turn on you - and in this case, yet again, they have. Predictably, except to the blind and the naive.

However, in the specific field of electric buses there is most certainly a choice and, as a bonus, a very real emerging choice of an Australian product that is as good as, indeed superior to the product from China. The rules as they presently stand mean that the Chinese product remains available on the local market, so it's basically up to the purchaser to exercise their conscience as to whether they should buy a product from a regime that is a human rights abuser and hostile to Australia's national interests or whether they should stand behind Australia's national interests (which doesn't necessarily mean buying Australian, just not from China).
idontknow556
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

How to find the Interline BCI Citirider? What bus type is it listed as on Anytrip?

Also I sometimes notice that a bus running on route 870/872 is listed as Inaccessible service on without a bus type shown could that be it?

Much Appreciated :)
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

idontknow556 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:46 am How to find the Interline BCI Citirider? What bus type is it listed as on Anytrip?

Also I sometimes notice that a bus running on route 870/872 is listed as Inaccessible service on without a bus type shown could that be it?

Much Appreciated :)
My query with Anytrip is still awaiting attention after more than a couple of weeks. Meanwhile the electric filter remains empty of buses. I've tried looking for electrics on the map including the BCI but can't find any. The BCI is an accessible bus so that isn't the answer. Have you tried ringing the operator?
idontknow556
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

Not really necessary to ring the operator but thanks anyways :)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by BAMBAM »

Interline Yutong M/O 8184 E 12 has made an appearance on 852 this morning, 6:38 From Liverpool to West Hoxton 7:11
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Saw the CD leaving Circ Quay as a 333 on Sun at about 2.20pm. forgot to check apps to see how it was listed.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:46 am Saw the CD leaving Circ Quay as a 333 on Sun at about 2.20pm. forgot to check apps to see how it was listed.
I wonder is it just a coincidence that the apps stopped identifying electric buses just as they start to appear in numbers? I have still had no response from Anytrip and the electric filter is still empty.
idontknow556
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

Anyone heard of a company called Zemtec(They are from NZ), They are bringing a solar powered electric bus to Australia though its too early to know whether NSW will be getting any

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... ian-market
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

There was a post about it last week.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stu »

Information regarding the NSW Parliamentary Committee that was set up to investigate 'Electric buses in regional and metropolitan public transport networks in NSW'.

Terms of reference.
This inquiry was self-referred on 23 October 2019.
That the Committee on Transport and Infrastructure inquire into and report on electric buses in regional and metropolitan public transport networks in NSW, including:

1. Benefits of electric buses and factors that limit their wider uptake.
2. Minimum energy and infrastructure requirements to power electric bus fleets.
3. Other renewable, emissions neutral energy sources.
4. Ways to support manufacture and assembly of electric buses in NSW.
5. Experience with introducing electric bus fleets in other jurisdictions.
6. Opportunities and challenges of transitioning the entire metropolitan bus fleet to electric.
7. Any other related matters.

Terms of reference - electric buses in ... rks in NSW

Timeline.
Date / Milestone
23 Oct 2019 Self-referred
20 Dec 2019 Submissions closed
18 Mar 2020 Hearing - Macquarie Room, Parliament House, Sydney
20 Mar 2020 Hearing - Macquarie Room, Parliament House, Sydney
24 Sep 2020 Final Report
23 Mar 2021 Government Response to Final Report
24 Mar 2021 Government Response to Final Report due

Submissions.
This inquiry is no longer receiving submissions.
No. 1 Mr Rory Keyes
No. 1a Mr Rory Keyes
No. 2 Interline Bus Services
No. 3 Confidential
No. 4 Volvo Bus Australia
No. 5 ARCC Pty Ltd
No. 6 Ms Marghanita da Cruz
No. 7 Transport for NSW
No. 8 Blind Citizens Australia
No. 9 ClimateWorks Australia
No. 10 Beyond Zero Emissions
No. 11 Transit Systems Pty Ltd
No. 12 Scania Australia Pty Ltd
No. 13 Centre for Air pollution, energy ... arch (CAR)
No. 14 Mr James Godschalk
No. 15 Vision Australia
No. 16 Climate Change Balmain-Rozelle
No. 17 Electric Vehicle Council
No. 18 Local Government NSW
No. 19 AGL Energy
No. 20 BusNSW
No. 21 Ausgrid
No. 22 Siemens
No. 23 Gemilang Australia
No. 24 Dr Jake Whitehead
No. 25 Toshiba
No. 26 Nexport Pty Ltd
No. 27 Electromotiv
No. 28 Transport Workers' Union of New South Wales
No. 29 Transdev Australasia
No. 30 Centre for Energy and Environmen ... kets, UNSW
No. 31 Dr. Pedro Orbaiz and Prof. Michael Brear
No. 32 Anna Nadolny
No. 33 Mr Wade Bowmer
No. 34 Disability Council NSW
No. 35 Australian Bus Corporation
No. 36 InvertedPower Pty Ltd

Hearings and Transcripts.
Date Venue Details
18/03/2020 Macquarie Room, Parliament House, Sydney Schedule Transcript
20/03/2020 Macquarie Room, Parliament House, Sydney Schedule Transcript

Reports and Government Responses.
Report / Name / Tabled Date / Government Response
Government Response - electric buses in ... rks in NSW 23/03/2021 -
Report - electric buses in regional and ... rks in NSW 24/09/2020 Due 24/03/2021

Other Documents.
Date / Type / Title
25/09/2020 Media Release Tabling of report - electric buses in r ... t networks
06/04/2020 Answers to Questions on Notice Transport for NSW
25/03/2020 Answers to Questions on Notice AGL Energy
23/10/2019 Media Release Inquiry announcement - electric buses i ... t networks

Contact Us.
Name / Role / Phone / email
Dora Oravecz Committee Manager (1) 9230 3054 transportinfrastructure@parliament.nsw.gov.au
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Thank you for that index Stu. The report can be readily downloaded from the Parliament site. I did hear at the time that Nowra Coaches were having trouble getting their charging infrastructure set up. Now I see why as John King commented here that it took 18 months to get the upgrade approved! By that time the bus had come and gone (though I have a clue that another may come soon). Compared to that, the average homeowner has nothing much to complain about on council approvals for house extensions!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Thanks.
Skimmed a few.
Interesting that Nexport talks about the possibility of a diesel to battery conversion.

Given the battery and drivetrain will likely cost more than the original bus, I suspect itll only be a small number that this would make sense for.

Agree that power is likely to be the biggest issue.
The three main EV fastcharger networks in Australia (Tesla, Chargefox and Evie) have struggled to find suitable sites and even then have faced reliability issues from the network.

Much harder if you're trying to push power into existing sites. And the electricity companies are not known for being cheap or quick when you want changes to their infrastructure.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:23 pm Thanks.
Skimmed a few.
Interesting that Nexport talks about the possibility of a diesel to battery conversion.
The Bustech XDis being built in Tasmania are designed for conversion to electric drive, with the diesel pulled out at the rear and an electric motor and two battery banks either side inserted into the rear. It would be the most expensive, impractical way of getting an electric bus imaginable. Not to mention what you'd do with 126 near-new redundant diesel bus engines that you'd already paid for at a time in history when everybody is changing to electric buses. I imagine it would cost no more just to buy new electric buses. The Tasmanian government has decided that it's going to electrify the Metro Tas fleet by 2023 apparently. It seems to be another example of a government agency not really having a fully-informed handle on a new concept (like TfNSW and trams!).
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: I imagine it would cost no more just to buy new electric buses.
You assume, but don't know. A bus engine and transmission will receive several rebuilds over their lives, so the cost of rebuilding vs replacing may not be that great. Obviously there would be some premature redundancy, but unavoidable if the existing fleet is to be retrofitted,
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by bussie »

tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:58 pm
moa999 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:23 pm Thanks.
Skimmed a few.
Interesting that Nexport talks about the possibility of a diesel to battery conversion.
The Bustech XDis being built in Tasmania are designed for conversion to electric drive, with the diesel pulled out at the rear and an electric motor and two battery banks either side inserted into the rear. It would be the most expensive, impractical way of getting an electric bus imaginable. Not to mention what you'd do with 126 near-new redundant diesel bus engines that you'd already paid for at a time in history when everybody is changing to electric buses. I imagine it would cost no more just to buy new electric buses. The Tasmanian government has decided that it's going to electrify the Metro Tas fleet by 2023 apparently. It seems to be another example of a government agency not really having a fully-informed handle on a new concept (like TfNSW and trams!).
The ISBs used on the Tassie XDis can be used as a marine or industrial engine, the ISB's marine/industrial cousin, the QSBs, are popular in those applications.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

bussie wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:26 am
The ISBs used on the Tassie XDis can be used as a marine or industrial engine, the ISB's marine/industrial cousin, the QSBs, are popular in those applications.
That's good to hear, but by now it would be better to just make them electric in the first place. It's mature technology, no longer an experiment.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

AFAIK, Bustech haven't even completed a prototype, they can't exactly deliver something that is still being developed. Yes Metro Tasmania could push back their fleet renewal program, but that causes other problems. Bit like in Sydney, even though Transit Systems have been operating electric buses in region 6 for over 18 months and have more on order, they are currently taking delivery of diesel powered Mercedes-Benz O500LEs because they need buses now.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Bustech have a prototype electric bus running in Adelaide. The Tasmanian buses are one of their "Powertrain" models in which different powertrains can be fitted to the same model. It's all set up to go to another powertrain already.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

An Element is now at Unanderra depot for Premier.

Edit: MO 6520
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