NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Merc1107
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Sounds an awful lot like the nonsense about diesels being "converted to CNG" one hears a lot of in Perth. :roll:
Yes, a grand total of 36 were actually converted in the 1990s, but everything that followed was gas from the factory.

In this case, I doubt anything has been physically 'converted'. An electric variant of a diesel bus wouldn't be a 'conversion' in my eyes.
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boronia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:30 pm During the Minister's media event at Waverley Depot recently, this curious statement was made and is now appearing across a lot of media:
Before Friday, the electrification of the NSW fleet has been through either the conversion of existing diesel buses or with electric buses built overseas.
The second part is true of course but the first part is bizarre. The economics of converting a diesel bus are extremely dubious, let alone the issue of whether the bus is physically suited to a conversion. There have been a couple of conversions of diesel buses to trolleybuses in Europe over the years, but such conversions are so rare internationally as to be almost non-existent, let alone in Australia. Even hybrid buses here have been built as new. Does anybody know of an Australian example, or this just another Constancism that has fallen from the mouth, so to speak?
I'd say this a badly worded description of a hybrid diesel-battery-electric bus.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:47 pm
I'd say this a badly worded description of a hybrid diesel-battery-electric bus.
TfNSW's media people grappling with technology.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: There have been a couple of conversions of diesel buses to trolleybuses in Europe over the years, but such conversions are so rare internationally as to be almost non-existent, let alone in Australia. Even hybrid buses here have been built as new. Does anybody know of an Australian example, or this just another Constancism that has fallen from the mouth, so to speak?
Exicon Group and ZF have marketed conversion kits, no idea on how successful they have been. European cities have fitted relatively cheap upgrade kits to their earlier diesel buses which bring them much closer to Euro 6 emission levels.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

State Transit 6520 is out today on route 370.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

And not showing on Anytrip as expected.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

If they are running ad-hoc un-timetabled services, these wouldn't be in the "system" and hence not showing up in the apps?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

Would need to have an operating transponder, but may not have been updated to show the vehicle type. Didn't have a shift number display so hard to tell if operating a diagrammed service or an ad-hoc extra. Appeared to be a passenger carrying service (unless they were staff on board), was sighted turning into City Road at 15:20 headed towards Coogee. Route 370s are notmally only operated by Randwick.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

tonyp wrote:And not showing on Anytrip as expected.
The Electric Bus filter appear broken on the web version of Anytrip - none of the TSA buses have been showing for days either.

I did notice a 370 bus with a very strange Vehicle Model about 30min after the post heading towards the West.
Vehicle Model : 11954_177314208_2441_370_1

Haven't noticed it head back.

Wonder if it was running to the Leichhardt depot to compare charging speeds versus TSAs electrics.

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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The problem has been brought to the attention of Anytrip.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

6520 on route 333 this afternoon, sighted in Circular Quay bound on Elizabeth Street at 1310.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Linto63 wrote:6520 on route 333 this afternoon, sighted in Circular Quay bound on Elizabeth Street at 1310.
Great to see they are keeping it on the two nominated routes /s

Did you check whether it was showing up on Anytrip?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

Maybe STA is trying to make the most of the two weeks by trying it on different routes
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9seeVgiojQ

This video has some more interior views of the Element, and already I like it - CB80 style front seats. Even further from usual STA trends, there is a seat directly behind the driver too, I like! Curious to note of this news video, it appears to already be running passenger service, yet no Opal readers on board in sight?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:36 am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9seeVgiojQ

This video has some more interior views of the Element, and already I like it - CB80 style front seats. Even further from usual STA trends, there is a seat directly behind the driver too, I like! Curious to note of this news video, it appears to already be running passenger service, yet no Opal readers on board in sight?
Classic European citybus interior, except that the wheelchair/pram spaces are positioned for front door ramp entry, not opposite the centre door which typically has the ramp in Europe.

Free rides for the public (if you can find where the buses are!), so no need for Opal readers. In that video on announcement day, many of the passengers are journos plus a lot of schoolkids.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

idontknow556 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:42 pm Maybe STA is trying to make the most of the two weeks by trying it on different routes
I read somewhere recently that it is offering free unscheduled trips and that the driver is free to operate pretty well on any routes he chooses. He is probably getting more "adventurous" as experience builds up.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

tonyp wrote:The problem has been brought to the attention of Anytrip.
Did you get a response?
I'd sent an email to hello@anytrip but got no response.
The developer jxeeno seems active on twitter


Are these ell the current electrics?

8104 - 8107 BYD Gemilang/Nexport at TS Leichhardt (the original 4 that were tracked previously)
8083 Yutong demo. Based at TS Leichhardt
6520 Custom Denning demo. To be based at STA Waverley
5486 Custom Denning demo. To be based at STA Waverley?
6918 BCI electric. Interline Leppington
7010 Yutong demo. Currently Busways Coffs, but seemingly likely to come to Penrith

Then another 4 Custom Dennings, 9 BCIs and a whole heap of BYD Nexport due this year. Plus maybe others.


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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:22 pm Did you get a response?
I'd sent an email to hello@anytrip but got no response.
The developer jxeeno seems active on twitter


Are these ell the current electrics?

8104 - 8107 BYD Gemilang/Nexport at TS Leichhardt (the original 4 that were tracked previously)
8083 Yutong demo. Based at TS Leichhardt
6520 Custom Denning demo. To be based at STA Waverley
5486 Custom Denning demo. To be based at STA Waverley?
6918 BCI electric. Interline Leppington
7010 Yutong demo. Currently Busways Coffs, but seemingly likely to come to Penrith

Then another 4 Custom Dennings, 9 BCIs and a whole heap of BYD Nexport due this year. Plus maybe others.
I got an acknowledgement and listed as waiting for support. That seems an accurate list of the buses currently on the road, thanks for the information.

I've done a bit of research on Nexport which is a company of TrueGreen Impact Group Ltd. which appears to be a group of "environment" themed investors or shelf company acting as an outlet for BYD in Australia. Gemilang Australia is also owned by Truegreen and is basically their bodybuilder for BYDs, although they will involve others as per client preference (so far Volgren). Whether there is any Chinese investment in the company I can't determine but in effect they're acting as a direct agent for BYD's interests in Australia. The Moss Vale venture is actually about far more than buses. They're planning to sell BYD electric cars and CVs in Australia - not clear yet whether as CKD or just distributor. This is well-covered in the motoring media, along with the inevitable discussion about the loyalty of Australian investors encouraging and profiting from Chinese imports at a time when China is implementing savage trade sanctions against Australia, but that's a separate discussion! "Fortunately" for Chinese car manufacturers, most Australian car-buyers don't have a clue where their cars are made and don't care. Some bus operators don't seem to either.

Truegreen/Nexport's CEO is Luke Todd who apparently has a family background in bus operation and was previously CEO of Carbridge and the person who oversaw the introduction of those BYD-Gemilang electric buses to Australian airport shuttles in the last few years. So that's where the involvement with BYD started and it's now grown into something much bigger. The future Moss Vale venture isn't really relevant to their electric buses at the moment as Gemilang is already set up and building bodies in Sydney and Ballarat and any other bodybuilders such as Volgren have their own plants elsewhere.

So up against this will be two Australian manufacturers with their own integral designs and production - Custom Denning and Bustech Precision. Yutong is an isolated Chinese outlier (though inexplicably popular given the small capacity of the bus) and BCI , while an Australian company, manufactures in China. Later this year, a Volvo electric chassis will make its appearance in WA and maybe they will want to market that locally later with any body on it, who knows?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

Spotted the CD on an inbound 333 this afternoon
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by 1whoknows »

Further to moa999's list there are also now two Yutong electrics at Interline.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

1whoknows wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:52 am Further to moa999's list there are also now two Yutong electrics at Interline.
They are getting nine altogether. I told the distributor a couple of years back that they were nixing one of their competitive advantages by converting what is a low-floor bus model into a part-high floor one. I wonder what they're thinking now that the Element has revealed itself? The low passenger capacity works against the Yutong, even worse than the BYD. I can only assume that these two Chinese models are quite heavy. Even though it has a high floor, the BCI seems on face value to be a better design.

I would have thought that if Interline wanted ten buses to trial they would consider a more even split between the models. Also, everybody should now get an Element into the mix. The viability and economics of electric buses is no longer on trial, but the qualities of the various offerings from different manufacturers most certainly is. Wouldn't like a repeat of the Bustech disaster with a poor design ending up dominating the urban fleet (tentatively excepting at this stage the electric Bustech which we don't yet know anything about).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

1whoknows wrote:Further to moa999's list there are also now two Yutong electrics at Interline.
8184-8185 2 Yutong E12 at Interline Leppington
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: I would have thought that if Interline wanted ten buses to trial they would consider a more even split between the models.
Interline haven't taken 10 electrics on trial, they are outright purchases and will be part of the region 2 fleet for the next 20 or so years.
tonyp wrote: Also, everybody should now get an Element into the mix.
Obviously you think it's a great product, but with the first demonstrators just entering service, way too early to be drawing conclusions on how good they are.
tonyp wrote: Wouldn't like a repeat of the Bustech disaster with a poor design ending up dominating the urban fleet (tentatively excepting at this stage the electric Bustech which we don't yet know anything about).
Yet another Bustech rant.:roll: Who knows, maybe Bustech's electric will turn out be the best of the offerings.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Just to revisit the status of the Bustech electric (second series ZDi):

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... 3-approved

I'm optimistic that it will be a whole lot better design than the XDi/VST, but it's a bus that doesn't exist yet (first to be built Q2 of 2021 I believe), so it's not possible to judge it yet. I am rather bemused that a bus that doesn't exist makes it to the NSW panel and already secures 60 orders in NSW and Qld sight unseen, but there we go. Obviously, for some, it's not "way too early to be drawing conclusions on how good they are". The render here showing the high floor at the back does disturb me. I hope they will stick with the low-floor layout of their mark 1 (but with windows that passengers can see out of).

I have also read that, apart from Volvo, Scania may be offering an electric chassis to the Australian market.

My mistake referring to the Interline buses as trial buses. We're well into the purchase stage for electric buses now, there's little need to further trial the basic concept.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

The use of quotation marks around the "60 confirmed orders" suggests that AB&C is a bit sceptical. They may be options or contracts with easy break clauses rather than rock solid, put a deposit down orders. A bus appearing on the NSW panel without a physical example having ever been assessed does appear strange. May a prototype exists but has been kept away from prying eyes?
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