NSW Railway Observations 2020

[Stonesourscotty]

D2 and D102 took atleast 15 minutes to attach to each other at Mt Druitt Platform 2 this evening then proceeded to head towards Penrith on the City bound line quite an unusual sight. D2 was leading Penrith bound.

[Transtopic]

There's a campaign underway by Eastwood Chamber of Commerce and Ryde Council for the previous CCN Intercity stop at Eastwood to be reinstated. Eastwood lost these services (4tph) when they were replaced by the peak hour semi-express T9 services from Hornsby to Sydney Terminal. It now has 8tph in the peak (4tph off-peak) compared with Epping which has a total of 27tph in the peak (4tph Epping starters + 4tph Hornsby semi-express + 4tph CCN Intercity + 15tph metro to Chatswood). Considering that Eastwood is a larger retail/commercial centre than Epping and has a larger employment base, there's a serious imbalance there.

Since the CCN Intercity services ceased stopping at Eastwood, there doesn't appear to be a noticeable difference in journey times, and any justification for it is misplaced. It should be reinstated, not only in the peak , but in the off-peak as well.

[gilberations]

The stop was removed as data proved that people on the CCN line were not using Eastwood in a volume that warranted the stop. As such, the trains would be packed with suburban passengers. NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utalized by Sydney Trains customers.

[Campbelltown busboy]

The stop was removed as data proved that people on the CCN line were not using Eastwood in a volume that warranted the stop. As such, the trains would be packed with suburban passengers. NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utalized by Sydney Trains customers.

Suburban network passengers using Trainlink services are like those suburban network passengers that always pick the option of the semi express limited stop service over the option of the all stop service because they want like the faster train over the slower all stop train

[swtt]

The stop was removed as data proved that people on the CCN line were not using Eastwood in a volume that warranted the stop. As such, the trains would be packed with suburban passengers. NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utalized by Sydney Trains customers.

In fact in the down direction, Eastwood and Epping passenger opting to use the CCN trains were crowding out people who actually needed the seat (e.g. north of Hornsby). These trains often ran half full after Epping from memory.

The same concept applied to the

• 2013 changes to T4 (removal of Cronulla/Waterfall services from Rockdale/Kogarah)
• 2017 changes to T1/T2 (removal of Burwood stop for all T1 Western and ensuring all T2 services stopped at Burwood)
• 2018 changes to T9 Epping (removal of Burwood stop for all T9 Epping peak with T9 Hornsby ex Sydney Terminal taking over)

[stupid_girl]

The stop was removed as data proved that people on the CCN line were not using Eastwood in a volume that warranted the stop. As such, the trains would be packed with suburban passengers. NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utalized by Sydney Trains customers.

In fact in the down direction, Eastwood and Epping passenger opting to use the CCN trains were crowding out people who actually needed the seat (e.g. north of Hornsby). These trains often ran half full after Epping from memory.

The same concept applied to the

• 2013 changes to T4 (removal of Cronulla/Waterfall services from Rockdale/Kogarah)
• 2017 changes to T1/T2 (removal of Burwood stop for all T1 Western and ensuring all T2 services stopped at Burwood)
• 2018 changes to T9 Epping (removal of Burwood stop for all T9 Epping peak with T9 Hornsby ex Sydney Terminal taking over)

Those passengers travelling further are pretty much guaranteed a seat beyond Epping. Is it unacceptable to stand for the first 25 minutes only? Are they worse off than someone standing for an entire journey to, say, Blacktown?

[stupid_girl]

NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utalized by Sydney Trains customers.

I disagree. Every train path into city in the peak is valuable. If intercity passengers cannot pack the train, then they should either take up some suburban passengers or else terminate at the suburban boundary and release the train path for additional suburban service into city.

[Linto63]

NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utilized by Sydney Trains customers.

But they can and are. You only have to witness the number of passengers boarding or alighting at Hornsby, Penrith, Sutherland etc. If the number of Sydney passengers is preventing longer distance travelers from boarding, eliminating stops will help solve, as happened with Eastwood.

Some peak hour T9 services from Central only stop at Strathfield, Rhodes, Meadowbank and West Ryde, so only marginally slower than a CCN service. Common sense would dictate that the campaign to reinstate would fail, but politics may override.

[swtt]

NSW TrainLink services are not supposed to be utalized by Sydney Trains customers.

I disagree. Every train path into city in the peak is valuable. If intercity passengers cannot pack the train, then they should either take up some suburban passengers or else terminate at the suburban boundary and release the train path for additional suburban service into city.

In the AM peak they definitely pack the trains and those boarding closer to Central won't get a seat.

It's in the PM peak when the people who really need the seat for the journey heading out, miss out.

I'm surprised there's been no "u" stops added to Epping or Eastwood for the Central Coast bound services, or for Parramatta/Blacktown to get "u" stops, similar to the South Coast services at Hurstville.

[Aurora]

Intercity services should not stop at more than 2 or 3 stops (max) in the suburban basin. One reasonable exception would be a day’s first and last services where there is no alternative suburban service operating at that time.

It was unreasonable when CCNs stopped at both Eastwood and Epping (and West Ryde in days past) (IMO they are lucky it stops at Epping let alone Eastwood where there is no added interchange benefit). I say stop at only one or none - Strathfield and Hornsby have more justification.

[Linto63]

I'm surprised there's been no "u" stops added to Epping or Eastwood for the Central Coast bound services, or for Parramatta/Blacktown to get "u" stops, similar to the South Coast services at Hurstville.

Problem with set down ony stops is that with online apps, it's easy for passengers to work out where services actually stop even if not shown on indicator boards. And with Opal cards, impossible to police even with onboard checks.

I say stop at only one or none - Strathfield and Hornsby have more justification.

Some do, e.g, the 1720 from Central runs express from Strathfield to Woy Woy.

[tonyp]

The idea of the suburban stops on interurban services is to scoop up long-distance commuters who are feeding into the interurban trains from stopping trains along the route or from branch lines. This would suggest that probably the only places they need to stop are Strathfield, Epping (for M1), Hornsby, Sutherland, Parramatta, Penrith and Campbelltown.

[BroadGauge]

Unless people are boarding at Central Coast stations and alighting at Eastwood, then there is no justification for those trains to be stopping there.

Another stop that could be debated is Blacktown for Blue Mountains services, as whilst it is a major centre and an interchange, it doesn't appear to be a particularly popular destination for people coming from west of Emu Plains.

[boronia]

Blacktown must be considered important, even the XPT stops there.

There are often good loadings at Penrith of a morning.

[boronia]

Unless people are boarding at Central Coast stations and alighting at Eastwood, then there is no justification for those trains to be stopping there.

Another stop that could be debated is Blacktown for Blue Mountains services, as whilst it is a major centre and an interchange, it doesn't appear to be a particularly popular destination for people coming from west of Emu Plains.

For city bound trains, people joining at Eastwood are utilising any spare seating, not denying it to long distance travellers.
How much space would be available after Epping?

[Frodo]

For citybound trains, another issue to consider is timetabling rather than seating. Most weekday off-peak citybound CCN trains depart Epping 3 min after the suburban train and overtakes it between Epping and West Ryde. Adding Eastwood as a stop for the CCN train would delay the suburban train by another 1-2 min.

[Transtopic]

Unless people are boarding at Central Coast stations and alighting at Eastwood, then there is no justification for those trains to be stopping there.

Another stop that could be debated is Blacktown for Blue Mountains services, as whilst it is a major centre and an interchange, it doesn't appear to be a particularly popular destination for people coming from west of Emu Plains.

For city bound trains, people joining at Eastwood are utilising any spare seating, not denying it to long distance travellers.
How much space would be available after Epping?

Exactly. The only real problem is in the pm peak from Central. Seats would be distributed between Suburban and Intercity passengers until the Suburban passengers alight after 20 mins or so.

When you refer to available space after Epping, I assume you mean on the inbound trips in the morning peak. Not sure what the current exit numbers are for Epping on am peak inbound trips since the metro opened, but I imagine most would be to interchange to the metro rather than exiting the station. Office employment in Epping has been decimated since a huge proportion of office space has been redeveloped for residential apartments. It's no longer a destination in itself as it once was and the remaining local businesses have suffered as a consequence.

Conversely, in the evening peak, most Suburban passengers, excluding those bound for Hornsby, would have alighted after Epping on outbound trips, freeing up seats for those Intercity passengers interchanging from the metro.

[boronia]

For city bound trains, people joining at Eastwood are utilising any spare seating, not denying it to long distance travellers.
How much space would be available after Epping?

Exactly. The only real problem is in the pm peak from Central. Seats would be distributed between Suburban and Intercity passengers until the Suburban passengers alight after 20 mins or so.

When you refer to available space after Epping, I assume you mean on the inbound trips in the morning peak. Not sure what the current exit numbers are for Epping on am peak inbound trips since the metro opened, but I imagine most would be to interchange to the metro rather than exiting the station. Office employment in Epping has been decimated since a huge proportion of office space has been redeveloped for residential apartments. It's no longer a destination in itself as it once was and the remaining local businesses have suffered as a consequence.

Conversely, in the evening peak, most Suburban passengers, excluding those bound for Hornsby, would have alighted after Epping on outbound trips, freeing up seats for those Intercity passengers interchanging from the metro.

I was wondering if the train fills up at Epping (from locals or metro interchange), then there is no point stopping at Eastwood. Eastwood would be even less of a destination or interchange point.

[boxythingy]

Strange, this was a planned rail replacement bus service, yet they didn't draw out lines to ensure people queued up 1.5m apart? Don't bus marshalls and management know the basis of WHS? It's everyone's responsibility to ensure a healthy and safe workplace, and what do they do? Just let everyone scramble up towards the bus entry way!

[Transtopic]

For citybound trains, another issue to consider is timetabling rather than seating. Most weekday off-peak citybound CCN trains depart Epping 3 min after the suburban train and overtakes it between Epping and West Ryde. Adding Eastwood as a stop for the CCN train would delay the suburban train by another 1-2 min.

Yes, timetabling is an issue on inbound trips with the limited section of quad between Epping and West Ryde to allow the Intercity trains to overtake the all-stations Suburban trains. If the Intercity trains are running late, then it throws everything out of kilter, meaning they may have to crawl behind the slower all-stops from West Ryde to Strathfield, or the all-stops is held at West Ryde, depending on how late the Intercity service is. It's not such an issue in the outbound direction, where the completion of the Third Track now has overtaking opportunities available from West Ryde to Thornleigh. This conflict will be eliminated and the timetable simplified, when the quad is completed between West Ryde and Rhodes as part of the next stage of the Northern Sydney Freight Corridor program, but that's still a decade away. This smaller scale project could potentially be brought forward as part of an enhanced infrastructure program to boost the economy.

In the meantime, it would help if it's feasible to tweak the timetable so that the Intercity trains left Hornsby a couple of minutes before the following T9 all-stations service and arrived at Epping allowing sufficient buffer for the preceding all-stations service to keep ahead of it. An additional stop at Eastwood would help in this regard. From what I can tell, the fastest journey times from Hornsby to Epping are 11 minutes for the express Intercity services and 16 minutes for the all-stations Suburban services. It demonstrates the value in having quad track where conflicting service patterns can be separated, creating more efficient operations.

[boronia]

Strange, this was a planned rail replacement bus service, yet they didn't draw out lines to ensure people queued up 1.5m apart? Don't bus marshalls and management know the basis of WHS? It's everyone's responsibility to ensure a healthy and safe workplace, and what do they do? Just let everyone scramble up towards the bus entry way!

I observed a similar situation at Circular Quay last weekend, with a big "ball" of people crowded on the wharf waiting for the gates to open.

[BroadGauge]

Strange, this was a planned rail replacement bus service, yet they didn't draw out lines to ensure people queued up 1.5m apart? Don't bus marshalls and management know the basis of WHS? It's everyone's responsibility to ensure a healthy and safe workplace, and what do they do? Just let everyone scramble up towards the bus entry way!

Have you tried socially distancing yourself from other passengers whilst trying to board a train in Sydney lately? From my personal experience, if you don't board the train quickly enough (aka whilst standing shoulder to shoulder with everybody else) then the train guards have no issue with closing the doors in your face.

[Transtopic]

Exactly. The only real problem is in the pm peak from Central. Seats would be distributed between Suburban and Intercity passengers until the Suburban passengers alight after 20 mins or so.

When you refer to available space after Epping, I assume you mean on the inbound trips in the morning peak. Not sure what the current exit numbers are for Epping on am peak inbound trips since the metro opened, but I imagine most would be to interchange to the metro rather than exiting the station. Office employment in Epping has been decimated since a huge proportion of office space has been redeveloped for residential apartments. It's no longer a destination in itself as it once was and the remaining local businesses have suffered as a consequence.

Conversely, in the evening peak, most Suburban passengers, excluding those bound for Hornsby, would have alighted after Epping on outbound trips, freeing up seats for those Intercity passengers interchanging from the metro.

I was wondering if the train fills up at Epping (from locals or metro interchange), then there is no point stopping at Eastwood. Eastwood would be even less of a destination or interchange point.

Even if the Intercity train fills up at Epping, there still may be standing room available for passengers boarding at Eastwood. I can recall in my early employment years in the 1960s, I used to catch the Central Coast SD U-Boats at Eastwood along with many others, who preferred standing all the way for a faster trip to Central than catching the all-stations service, which BTW was 5 minutes faster then than the current service. You never had an expectation that you would get a seat and no one complained. I suspect that it it's the same today. Another aspect which is rarely mentioned, is that even if standing all the way, it's a much more pleasant trip with an express journey than a slower stop/start journey with passengers alighting and boarding along the way. At least, that's my perspective.

I disagree that Eastwood would be even less of a destination. It now has a larger employment base than Epping and this is predicted to widen in the years ahead. Significantly, it has a broad appeal across Northern Sydney beyond its immediate area for the Asian community because of its multitude of food outlets and restaurants and business and health services, which many people including planners overlook. In addition, redevelopment has hardly scratched the surface yet, because of outdated planning controls.

It certainly isn't as significant as Epping as an interchange point because of the latter's intersection with the metro line. In saying that, it still has some value as an interchange point for an extensive local and regional bus network with connections to the CBD via the Victoria Rd corridor through Ryde, Macquarie Park, Parramatta and Auburn.

[tonyp]

Strange, this was a planned rail replacement bus service, yet they didn't draw out lines to ensure people queued up 1.5m apart? Don't bus marshalls and management know the basis of WHS? It's everyone's responsibility to ensure a healthy and safe workplace, and what do they do? Just let everyone scramble up towards the bus entry way!

If they were seriously interested in upholding social distancing they would open the centre door as well.

[Stonesourscotty]

There is a drill rig at the St Marys town centre side of the station I'm assuming it's with regards to work with the metro line potentially the quadrupling of the St Mary's Penrith Western Line which was rumoured two years ago or the other possible idea is the replacement of the dangerous uneven staircase on the town centre side of the station.