New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Or even Randwick...
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
If there was only to be one frequent route, would it look something like the current 400? Most likely.
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.
If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:
... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:
You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.
There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.
So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.
If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:
... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:
You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.
There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.
So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Yes, this is still a better option in my humble opinion.Qantas94Heavy wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:22 pm If there was only to be one frequent route, would it look something like the current 400? Most likely.
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.
If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:
... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:
You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.
There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.
So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
The demand from Anzac Parade south of Maroubra does not warrant 390X with 399. It is better served by a combination of 394 and 399.
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
The trouble is, the new Frequent routes will have a 10 min day time frequency (and increasing as needed during peaks), but the current Route 400 runs every 7-8 min during the day already.
I'm guessing it's a bit of a frequency cut between the current Eastgardens to Frenchmans Road leg if the 390X/350 proposal is to proceed as is, unless something props up the service between Maroubra Jn-Kingsford-Randwick corridor.
I'm guessing it's a bit of a frequency cut between the current Eastgardens to Frenchmans Road leg if the 390X/350 proposal is to proceed as is, unless something props up the service between Maroubra Jn-Kingsford-Randwick corridor.
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Frequent means at least every 10 minutes - 333 is called a frequent even though it generally operates every 6 minutes all day, and much more frequently when required.
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Or, to paraphrase from tram days of yore: "always a bus in sight". (Then there's the conga line .... )
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
The network changes will be a great opportunity for the 320 to be removed from the operation by region 6 and transferred to region 9. Maybe the 303 could be offloaded to region 6 as a trade for 320.
The 320 will most likely be modified to no longer operate to and from Gore Hill at a later date and will mean changes to other timetables.
The 320 will most likely be modified to no longer operate to and from Gore Hill at a later date and will mean changes to other timetables.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
To be honest i think i'd be fine fine with 350+390X Option but only if they keep the 357 as it is and have it extend to the Airport to help provide direct connection to the Airport from Randwick & Kingsford(Plus Rosebery/Eastlakes aswell.). And perhaps add in the Route 359 Which can Operate Between Eastgardens, Maroubra, Randwick & Bondi Junction. This service help to continue providing direct services to eastgardens from around Anzac Parade/Rainbow street & Randwick.stupid_girl wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:32 pmYes, this is still a better option in my humble opinion.Qantas94Heavy wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 8:22 pm If there was only to be one frequent route, would it look something like the current 400? Most likely.
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.
If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:
... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:
You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.
There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.
So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
The demand from Anzac Parade south of Maroubra does not warrant 390X with 399. It is better served by a combination of 394 and 399.
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
I know that any depot can operate any route within the region and we have optimisation etc etc. However, it seems that we can speculate on certain depot-specific trends as follows.
* Waverley: least affected. Will probably pick up 389 by the look of things. We may see work off-loaded to R and P to balance things out. So we are less likely to see W buses turning up outside of the classic W territory. Routes like 311, 313 which are partly W operated now likely to be completely R.
* 350, 390X more likely to be dominated by Port Botany.
* 375, 339 more likely to be dominated by Randwick. But these are short routes - will we see more R buses on 333 and 380 to balance it out?
Again, I know that any East depot can theoretically operate any route. But it seems moving a clean block of work is the only way to even out workflow between the three.
* Waverley: least affected. Will probably pick up 389 by the look of things. We may see work off-loaded to R and P to balance things out. So we are less likely to see W buses turning up outside of the classic W territory. Routes like 311, 313 which are partly W operated now likely to be completely R.
* 350, 390X more likely to be dominated by Port Botany.
* 375, 339 more likely to be dominated by Randwick. But these are short routes - will we see more R buses on 333 and 380 to balance it out?
Again, I know that any East depot can theoretically operate any route. But it seems moving a clean block of work is the only way to even out workflow between the three.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Until timetables are development for the new route structure which is still subject to change and then shifts are developed from there, it will be pretty hard to say how they can optimize which depot will work what. And I dont think there is such a thing as moving clean blocks of work.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Bit hard to speculate what depot gets what. Even between those run by the same contractor (or Government entity), rosters and the hours worked can vary quite a bit and as a result, it can be very difficult to make changes to without causing very serious upsets in the workplace. Just because X depot is closest to Y terminus doesn't mean they'll have the monopoly on runs from there - there are other considerations an operator must consider in addition to dead-running.
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
I'd like to defend the 431 here..Qantas94Heavy wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:57 am I'd actually agree with sending the 370 to Glebe Point instead. The 431 can either become a peak only service or scrapped entirely.
It'd deliver a better link between Glebe and Newtown. 433 and light rail serves much of the Glebe Point to City catchment.
- the westerly end of Glebe Pt Rd is a medium/high-density catchment does generate decent patronage inbound
- acts as the reliable 'on-time' operations due to its relatively short route
- late night options on the route are often patronised well (particularly pre-COVID with student/travel accomodation)
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
It is very hard to speculate about which depots will operate each route in the East, as of late there hasn't really been much demarcation between each of the depot territory.
There are Port Botany 360s, 380s and 387s every day of the week, and during daylight savings its not uncommon to see Port on 333s as well. It isn't uncommon for a Port Botany shift to start with a 400 to BJI and then operate a round trip out of BJI of something else before completing the return 400, so there is no reason why Port 390Xs couldn't do the same. Waverley even does Anzac Parade express trips in the AM peak as well in the current arrangement!
I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
There are Port Botany 360s, 380s and 387s every day of the week, and during daylight savings its not uncommon to see Port on 333s as well. It isn't uncommon for a Port Botany shift to start with a 400 to BJI and then operate a round trip out of BJI of something else before completing the return 400, so there is no reason why Port 390Xs couldn't do the same. Waverley even does Anzac Parade express trips in the AM peak as well in the current arrangement!
I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
By low floor I presume you mean low entry? So despite this, they're non accessible? Don't they have ramps or is there some other reason?J_Busworth wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am
I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
From memory having ridden on these they are low floor as in all the way to rear steps but have no wheelchair ramp or space. They were the precursor to the wheelchair accessibles that had the ramp at the rear door.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Yes, I mean low entry. They are colloquially known as low floor Scanias, to distinguish from the high floor Scania Oranas. They are the original low entry buses, fully flat to the back door but no ramp or wheelchair space. Halfway through the order, buses began being delivered with a ramp and wheelchair space at the back door, but the ones currently at Randwick predate this.tonyp wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 11:23 amBy low floor I presume you mean low entry? So despite this, they're non accessible? Don't they have ramps or is there some other reason?J_Busworth wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am
I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
https://transportnswblog.com
RIP STA L113s 28/01/93 - 12/01/22
RIP STA L113s 28/01/93 - 12/01/22
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
This would depend on there being enough replacement buses being delivered by that time?J_Busworth wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
It is thought that less buses would be required for the changed network hence it may not be dependent on replacement buses, or least a smaller number of replacement buses than the number withdrawn.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
thanks j_Busworth that was an interesting observation. I agree that it is hard to associate certain routes with a particular depot. For example 288 and 292 must be about 50% Ryde and you can't really say it "belongs" anywhere other than Region 7.
That said, I think some routes are predominantly operated by certain depots with only rare exceptions. 202 and 207 are examples.
I would love to see the % breakdown route-by-route. It is possible to do rough calculations using Anytrip for certain routes e.g. it is easy to isolate Willoughby buses because their combination of body/chassis is mostly different to that used at Ryde. But it is impossible to do that in the east.
Returning to the point of this thread - i am still attached to the idea that certain routes are "predominantly" operated by certain depots. I imagine the majority of Watsons Bay services, for example, are Waverley. But as I said I can't really confirm this.
That said, I think some routes are predominantly operated by certain depots with only rare exceptions. 202 and 207 are examples.
I would love to see the % breakdown route-by-route. It is possible to do rough calculations using Anytrip for certain routes e.g. it is easy to isolate Willoughby buses because their combination of body/chassis is mostly different to that used at Ryde. But it is impossible to do that in the east.
Returning to the point of this thread - i am still attached to the idea that certain routes are "predominantly" operated by certain depots. I imagine the majority of Watsons Bay services, for example, are Waverley. But as I said I can't really confirm this.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
From noting what happened on say route 144, where after the last set of changes on weekdays the vast majority of services (but not all) are operated by North Sydney, but on weekends it seems to be nearly exclusive to Brookvale operated buses, something similar could end up happening for at least some of the Eastern Suburbs routes - the "high frequency" ones at least.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
It's very sad that Willo lost their smattering of 144 runs. It made for a nice change to the usual boring lower north shore runs and Eppings. The passengers were totally different too in the way they tended to treat the driver like a human being abit more than the snobby master servant thought process that seemed to go on with the rest.
That all may have changed a little since I did it 20 years ago. I do notice passengers now thanking the driver from the centre doors a lot which rarely happened in my day.
That all may have changed a little since I did it 20 years ago. I do notice passengers now thanking the driver from the centre doors a lot which rarely happened in my day.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Previous post is Off subject - please back to the region 9 discussion.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Back in the day the *39 was almost exclusively R to the point they even had Sydney Explorers doing the odd run.J_Busworth wrote: ↑Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am It is very hard to speculate about which depots will operate each route in the East, as of late there hasn't really been much demarcation between each of the depot territory.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
Some X39 and some other X runs were operated by Explorer buses heading into the city to start runs, rather than going in empty. They also operated outbound runs on the way back to the depot.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening
I did notice the buses on each run were often from different depots when I was last in Maroubra on a regular basis in 19. I can't imagine what it's like now.
They weren't like that before when you could predict where they were from most of the time.
They weren't like that before when you could predict where they were from most of the time.
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