New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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tonyp
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

Putting it in perspective, L2/L3 in April this year carried about 1/3 more passengers than all Sydney ferry services combined, or about as many as the metro, about 85% of the patronage of the Bankstown line, or about 85% of the patronage of the entire bus region 7, or about the same as the Northern Line, or more than the Inner West line. All of this while most SE bus services are still running into the city alongside it.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

I saw that video in full Cazza and it has improved but is still far too cautious beyond common sense in it's running. It was particularly galling at one point where private vehicle traffic got an inordinate amount of priority over the tram which would be scandalous in many cities.
It was Rawson and (the) Pitt(s) I think.

That crossover vehicle that robbed the tram of a run through the light was infuriating to watch. That sort of thing must be going on regularly. I hope the police take it seriously enough to nab offenders in earnest.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

Swift wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:08 pm is still far too cautious beyond common sense in it's running.
I think this is the key. A 10km/h speed limit across South Dowling St because only a few cars don't know how to stop at a red light? I'm sorry, but that is pretty ridiculous. Thousands of cars cross this intersection everyday, as well as hundreds of trams. Yet because 1 major incident (that I could find) has occurred over the years and there is this outrageously slow speed.

I understand the safety reasoning behind it- a dead straight road with a set of traffic lights almost popping out of nowhere. However, if it is the poor road design that is the issue (i.e. a straight, speed enticing section of close to motorway standard), change the road! Narrow the lanes, put in rumble strips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumble_strip), even put in some sort of moderate speed chicanes/curves. Don't burden the trams for incompetent car drivers, put it back on the drivers to make them aware of this tram crossing and just slow them down in the process.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

Swift wrote: It was particularly galling at one point where private vehicle traffic got an inordinate amount of priority over the tram which would be scandalous in many cities.
If other modes were getting priority, it would be a bit more acceptable, but everyone; trams, vehicles and pedestrians, get dudded by TfNSW's inability to phase the lights. Red lights all round with everyone sitting there with nothing happening and not a tram in sight, its keystone cops stuff.
Cazza wrote: I think this is the key. A]10km/h speed limit across South Dowling St because only a few cars don't know how to stop at a red light? I'm sorry, but that is pretty ridiculous.
May have only been one major incident, but probably many near misses that have been able to be avoided by trams drivers being able to pull up from a low speed.
Jurassic_Joke wrote: The RBTU is literally a clone of the current opposition party. If they were in power, all we’d have are buses, buses and more buses because the current ALP hate trams.
Unions will oppose change regardless of who is in power, that said this is a particularly poor article from Australasian Bus & Coach, and that's saying something. Labor during its time in office did commission the L1 extensions to Lilyfield and Dulwich Hill. Yes it did reject proposals to extend through the CBD (IIRC it was proposed to use Pitt Street), but the way it played out, maybe they did their homework and foresaw the problems. It has been negative towards the L2/L3, but the way it was rolled out, it was a low hanging piece of fruit ripe for the picking.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

Long traffic light cycles are a characteristic of Austtalian traffic management, based on the car traffic-oriented "green wave". It's very unsympathetic to public transport and entrenched thinking that's hard to buck. However, it's been done on Gold Coast and TfNSW has the ability to do it, if not the will.

Unions don't oppose change regardless of who is in power. They're the Labor Party's Fifth Column, able to continue operating in the party's interests even when the party is not in power and regardless of the people's will in the popular vote. The TWU and RTBU act differently in NSW than they do in Queensland, Victoria and WA (the double standard rear door loading policies being a prime example of this). Their core job is to make life difficult for any conservative government in office. Training ground for union executives to pave the path for a career in politics. I was a union member and sometime delegate all my working life, saw it first hand.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Linto63 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:22 am
Cazza wrote: I think this is the key. A]10km/h speed limit across South Dowling St because only a few cars don't know how to stop at a red light? I'm sorry, but that is pretty ridiculous.
May have only been one major incident, but probably many near misses that have been able to be avoided by trams drivers being able to pull up from a low speed.
This will definitely save a lot of cost and heartache and could be categorised as defensive driving until they implement traffic calming devices for Dowlers which clearly should be done pronto and should really have been done in preparation for the light rail from the outset.
tonyp wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 12:12 pm Long traffic light cycles are a characteristic of Austtalian traffic management, based on the car traffic-oriented "green wave". It's very unsympathetic to public transport and entrenched thinking that's hard to buck. However, it's been done on Gold Coast and TfNSW has the ability to do it, if not the will.
They are too lazy to try new things when it's easier to be formulaic.
In the hours after midnight, do we need traffic signals at all? Flashing yellows with normal give way and stop rules would suffice say between 12 and 5am. That will save fuel, brakes, wear and time.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Linto63 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:22 am May have only been one major incident, but probably many near misses that have been able to be avoided by trams drivers being able to pull up from a low speed.
Have been at least two that made it into media news. Both involved trams in the second half of the crossing, so the red light for the vehicles would have been active for some time prior. Seems you just can't eliminate people not paying attention.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

boronia wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 1:16 pm
Linto63 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:22 am May have only been one major incident, but probably many near misses that have been able to be avoided by trams drivers being able to pull up from a low speed.
Have been at least two that made it into media news. Both involved trams in the second half of the crossing, so the red light for the vehicles would have been active for some time prior. Seems you just can't eliminate people not paying attention.
But you can. I had a sizeable post on that issue just before but a mod took it down...

The basic premise was that why should trams be burdened by near walking pace speeds when it's car drivers that are normally the ones causing an accident? This comes down to the way we look at how to prevent these accidents. After an accident in the Netherlands, they have a "how can we make the road safer" approach rather than a "the car driver (or insert any other party) was at fault, they must be punished" approach.

As this section of South Dowling St is pretty straight with wide lanes (and a motorway entrance just metres past the tram crossing heading northbound), drivers are invited to go fast and not feel the need to pay as much attention. But, if traffic calming such as rumble strips or curves were brought in on approach to the intersection to slow cars down, it will be pretty much physically impossible for an accident to occur where cars are travelling anywhere near 60+km/h. Not only will this significantly reduce the risk of a deadly collision, but it will also significantly increase safety for those bikes and pedestrians crossing too.

This way, trams can still cruise through between 40-60km/h (depending on what would be realistic given the curve in the tunnel and intersections to the west) and safely traverse the intersection, without the need of slowing down, whilst cars will need to be slowed due to the nature of the road, reducing the risk of any sort of crash and increased need for driver awareness.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Glen »

Perhaps it just needs boom gates like on the Glenelg line?
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swtt
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

Can we get back to the new bus network, and leave the debates of the merits of the comparisons to another thread? :P
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

My fellow UNSW students seem to be mostly concerned about the loss of the 400. A facebook thread in the UNSW Students group at this point has nearly 200 people all complaining about the loss of the 400, seemingly oblivious that it has been replaced by the 390X and increased frequency on the 392. The 393 and L94 also seem to be routes that people have expressed a concern at losing without noticing the addition of the 390X.

I would be concerned that actually useful feedback will get lost in a sea of "NOT THE 400, NOT THE L94" from people who haven't actually looked at the changes.

Having had time to digest the changes a bit more, I think all of the 339, 374 and 396 should run as ADFN routes and the former two should extend to Circular Quay as at present. That would address what I expect to be a key concern of not enough direct city services without actually doing terribly much of use other than ticking a box that says we listened.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

J_Busworth wrote:My fellow UNSW students seem to be mostly concerned about the loss of the 400. A facebook thread in the UNSW Students group at this point has nearly 200 people all complaining about the loss of the 400, seemingly oblivious that it has been replaced by the 390X and increased frequency on the 392. The 393 and L94 also seem to be routes that people have expressed a concern at losing without noticing the addition of the 390X.

I would be concerned that actually useful feedback will get lost in a sea of "NOT THE 400, NOT THE L94" from people who haven't actually looked at the changes.

Having had time to digest the changes a bit more, I think all of the 339, 374 and 396 should run as ADFN routes and the former two should extend to Circular Quay as at present. That would address what I expect to be a key concern of not enough direct city services without actually doing terribly much of use other than ticking a box that says we listened.
In guessing there is a minor loss of frequency on the route 400 corridor between Kingsford and Bondi Jn. Currently during the day doesn't it run every 7-8 minutes?

The 390X will only be operating every 10 min. This will be only half the frequency it was in its heyday before 2002 - every 5 min between Eastgardens and Bondi Jn.

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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by moa999 »


J_Busworth wrote: think all of the 339, 374 and 396 should run as ADFN routes and the former two should extend to Circular Quay as at present.
But then why did we build a $3bn light railway
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

I can't speak for the 339 and 374 but the 396 between Moore Park and Circular Quay serves a completely different area and a completely different type of trip than the light rail. The lack of a frequent Anzac Pde-Taylor Square/Museum/Martin Place is a massive concern that does need to be addressed by TfNSW.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boxythingy »

Fantastic news on the 370, increased frequency 5 years after I graduated, 11 years after I first started uni when I needed it. I am old.

Is this part of the government's plan on helping people go back to uni to retrain, or a calling to work for the uni?
Last edited by boxythingy on Wed May 12, 2021 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Nugget »

Cazza wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:58 pm I can't speak for the 339 and 374 but the 396 between Moore Park and Circular Quay serves a completely different area and a completely different type of trip than the light rail. The lack of a frequent Anzac Pde-Taylor Square/Museum/Martin Place is a massive concern that does need to be addressed by TfNSW.
This once again is reflective of the single seat mentality. You now go to a node and transfer. What they should also do is provide for a seamless transfer through the ticketing system. It also means a change to a different mode, not necessarily light rail but Central gives you access to City Circle services as well.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Fleet Lists »

That was originally promised between the bus and light rail but has since fallen by the wayside. Maybe we will see it introduced in the next lot of fare changes due shortly. But I wont hold my breath.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

Seriously, $2 off per transfer is actually not bad. It also discourages unnecessary mode changes.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Cazza wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:58 pm I can't speak for the 339 and 374 but the 396 between Moore Park and Circular Quay serves a completely different area and a completely different type of trip than the light rail. The lack of a frequent Anzac Pde-Taylor Square/Museum/Martin Place is a massive concern that does need to be addressed by TfNSW.
The existing services along Anzac parade do not generate a lot of patronage into the Flinders St and Oxford Sts stops, nor does Flinders St generate a lot of patronage into the city (that cannot walk down to Taylor Sq where they will have a better choice of CQ or Central (and beyond) services. The proposed 10 minute frequency of the new 396 seems more than adequate.

People living around Clovelly have been changing to get to Taylor Sq/Oxford for years and seem quite happy to do so (in fact, under the 2000 BBE proposals they rejected a plan to route the 339 that way).
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Yes, we can't keep worrying about the inconvenience of a few if we are to evolve into an improved overall system that adapts to changed / changing travel patterns.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

I'm a bit confused about what you guys are saying. Are you saying that the 396 is required or not? Also Boronia out of interest, do you have any sort of data to show this demand (rather than having to trawl through massive excel sheets found somewhere on TfNSW's website)? From my view, there are a huge number of trip generators in the Taylor Square/eastern CBD area that requires at least one frequent Anzac Pde service (a walk to/from the light rail to Museum Station is about 7-8mins in itself, plus however much longer for places further down Oxford St). I'm not saying have a route from every corner of the eastern beaches run into the City (like what currently happens), but at least one that covers the core section of Anzac Pde, most of the major interchanges along the way where possible and run direct up into Taylor Square/Museum (like the 396 is proposed to do).

Also, just to clarify, I was under the impression that the 396 ran every 10 mins during peak and only every 20 mins off-peak. Now that I have actually read the changes list properly, I am not too concerned anymore. It was just a shock to me when I thought that it was the only route running this corridor/route at 20 min daytime frequencies.

I think most would know by now how much I do bag on about the need for a frequent, connected network (rather than a coverage, CBD centric one) that does require people to change throughout their journey. I'm just a bit surprised that they haven't included the 396 in their frequent network to increase its legibility and just because of the sheer amount of nightlife there is in this area. 20-30min frequencies in the evening is pretty disappointing considering its the only route playing this role.

However, I think now that I've actually understood the 396 will run every 10 mins (and that be the only route required from Anzac Pde), I think we are trying to argue the same point :D
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

Yes, the proposed new 396 will be one of the frequent routes: 10 min most of the day (usually 0600-2130 hrs), 20 min early morning/late evening, 7 days a week. The other frequent route will be the new route 392.

So it might mean that it ends up being a frequent service for the Taylor Square customers, and it might mean a slightly faster trip for St James customers. But for anything else, the light rail will do its trick.

I think the original proposals had no such thing ("Frequent" route). That what would've gotten people worried - only a pittance of a half hourly service as they currently are in the off peak, instead of every 10 min.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

At the current time, this corridor is serviced by 392, L/394, 396, 397, 399 at varying frequencies. Plus the X versions.

I don't have figures, but as a regular user I can see there is not a lot of travel to/from the Flinders/Oxford Sts stops. Probably at Taylor Sq, there would be some transfer to/from the Bondi services, and people heading to St Vincents hospital.

Inbound, the last stop in Oxford St is near Brisbane St, a bit back from Wentworth Ave; the next stop is in Elizabeth St near Bathurst St, then between Martin Place and Hunter St. Outbound services fare a little better with stops at Martin Place, Market St, Bathurst St and Liverpool St (Museum Station).

People on the other above routes who want to get to the city will have to transfer at some point to the 396 bus or the tram. A lot will prefer to use the bus because the tram is perceived as "too slow" even though it could be more convenient to their destination.

Perhaps this problem could be solved by having the new 396 terminate at Central, turning left from Liverpool into Elizabeth or Pitt St. People wanting to go north along Elizabeth could transfer to the 333 in Oxford St.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by hornetfig »

Nugget wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:08 amYou now go to a node and transfer.
Where are these transfer points? eg If say you're on a 374 ex north Coogee and need to change to a tram?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

hornetfig wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:08 pm
Nugget wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:08 amYou now go to a node and transfer.
Where are these transfer points? eg If say you're on a 374 ex north Coogee and need to change to a tram?
Depends on where you are going on the tram. You could transfer at the racecourse stops, or at Foveaux/Chalmers St if you want to go further down George St.
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