New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Fleet Lists »

That was basically introduced when State Transit tried to reduce dead running and I expect they will continue to do that. However the operator that takes over in due course may have different ideas. And I am not going to hazard a guess as to what such ideas might be.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Stu »

Each depot has a group of core routes that are assigned to that particular depot. Example: routes 339 & X39 are Randwick Depot routes, the schedulers work out what operating efficiencies can be achieved by distributing some of those trips to other depots.

Somewhere around the late 1990's to very early 2000's, STA stopped the practice of route sharing across multiple depots unless absolutely necessary such as long routes such as M10, 200, 370, 400 & 410 (the Rochdale - Bondi Jct. version). Route 448 peak hour only service (Pyrmont - Town Hall QVB) was a Region 6 route although it was only operated by Region 6 Leichhardt Depot during the PM peak, Region 9 Randwick Depot would operate the AM peak trips after operating route 339 trips inbound to Millets Point. This creates a very rigid allocation of routes to depots.

There were a few other very rare exceptions as well such as an route 378 AM peak trip (Waverley Depot route) Bronte to Railway Square operated by Randwick and a route 381 PM peak trip (Waverley Depot route) Bondi Jct. to North Bondi also operated by Randwick.

Another example existed between Kingsgrove Depot and Burwood Depot due to Burwood Depot being at capacity and the holding yard (quasi satellite Depot) at Five Depot city also at capacity. This was a short term reason for the redevelopment and expansion of Leichhardt Depot and the long term reason was continued growth with future services. 2 x route 409 trips, 1 x route 480 trip & 2 x route 483 trips (Burwood Depot routes) were operated by Kingsgrove Depot in the AM peak.

STA 'Route Optimisation' was implemented in May 2013 across Regions 6, 7, 8 & 9.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Ray »

Thanks Stu that was what I was hoping someone would confirm! So my speculation was that some W core routes may be shifted soon. Of course, only time will tell.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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But still all purely speculation. If these changes are to be implemented in late 2021 as indicated in the advice (say November 2021), how long will the STA be operating this new network?
With the latest conversion schedule showing region 8 to be concluded by October 2021, region 7 by December 2021 and region 9 by April 2022 (of course still schedule is unlikely to be kept as region 8 is now unlikely to start in May 2021) . But assuming this schedule is kept the STA would operate the new network for 5 months. As the STA would already be in wind down mode by then, how much effort are they going to put into optimising the operational aspects of the new region 9 network? I suspect they may just leave that to the new operator to do, possible using different parameters to what the STA would have used.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by lyjjimmy »

Might not be very concerning you guys but did anyone notice 440 is also in the blue colour (instead of the light blue for 'other regions') in the proposed R9 map? Although some people already pointed out 348 and 389 are also a 'proposed' R9 route, this make sense for me. But how the depots cope with 440, esp the USyd short workings in peaks??
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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map https://www.mysydney.nsw.gov.au/sites/d ... %20map.pdf
I would think that the reduction in services overall would make room for the extra routes to be operated by region 9. Keep in mind that the deletion of the University of NSW routes has already made quite a considerable number of bus (spots) available. But time will tell if this interpretation is correct. TSA may not be too happy to loose those routes from region 6.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Fleet Lists wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:44 pm But still all purely speculation. If these changes are to be implemented in late 2021 as indicated in the advice (say November 2021), how long will the STA be operating this new network?
With the latest conversion schedule showing region 8 to be concluded by October 2021, region 7 by December 2021 and region 9 by April 2022 (of course still schedule is unlikely to be kept as region 8 is now unlikely to start in May 2021) . But assuming this schedule is kept the STA would operate the new network for 5 months. As the STA would already be in wind down mode by then, how much effort are they going to put into optimising the operational aspects of the new region 9 network? I suspect they may just leave that to the new operator to do, possible using different parameters to what the STA would have used.
Transit Systems continued to operate the same STA Region 6 shifts after the handover. The first major change to shifts occurred at the end of September 2018 for the split of routes 400 (new 420) & 418 (reinstatement of 357) and withdrawl of route 410. The vast majority of shifts remained the same until the network changes that occurred on 02/12/2018.

The core routes for each depot in Region 6 have only changed whenever there is a change to the network regarding timetables and route or a major operational change like the withdrawal of the Scania 14.5 buses.

The scheduling for the new region 9 network will most likely be optimised as best as possible at the direction of TfNSW which will be suitable for handover and used immediately by the new operator from hand over onwards. Changes to the core routes and further optimisation changes to route allocation will most likely occur at a later date.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Fleet Lists wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 8:34 pm map https://www.mysydney.nsw.gov.au/sites/d ... %20map.pdf
I would think that the reduction in services overall would make room for the extra routes to be operated by region 9. Keep in mind that the deletion of the University of NSW routes has already made quite a considerable number of bus (spots) available. But time will tell if this interpretation is correct. TSA may not be too happy to loose those routes from region 6.
If Transit Systems loses 305,308,320,348,389,440, then they may allocate additional resources to inner west.
Last edited by stupid_girl on Sun May 23, 2021 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by HHH »

I very much doubt that routes 389 & 440 would end up as R9 routes. The dead running would be absolutely huge, prior to R6 being franchised STA used heaps of depots to reduce dead running when it used to operate those routes. 389 & 440 need to to be split and revert to close to the way they used to be and have routes 443 & 378 returned to operation.

If Transit Systems R6 lost such an amount of routes like 305, 308, 348, 389 & 440, this would affect the service kilometres and reduce the staffing levels which could be a breach of contract.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Ray »

I would argue 389 is predominantly East anyway and wouldn't require that much dead running. Agree 440 would need to be split. Given that the Bronte service has been heavily politicised, wouldn't be a surprised to see public pressure resulting in the return of the old 378.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I don’t think the old 378 is coming back. If I recall correctly, it was conditional that the electorate of Coogee return the Libs, that didn’t happen and voila, the matter was never spoken of again since the election and we’re now more than halfway through this term of government. If it were happening, it would’ve probably been in the recently released CSELR bus plan
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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HHH wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 10:14 pm
If Transit Systems R6 lost such an amount of routes like 305, 308, 348, 389 & 440, this would affect the service kilometres and reduce the staffing levels which could be a breach of contract.
The contract would be based on a cost per kilometer operated. The number of kilometers can be increased or decreased within reason without a breach of contract. Also TSA may have been made aware that some routes may be reallocated to region 9 once a review of that region took place.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Ray wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 11:01 pm I would argue 389 is predominantly East anyway and wouldn't require that much dead running. Agree 440 would need to be split. Given that the Bronte service has been heavily politicised, wouldn't be a surprised to see public pressure resulting in the return of the old 378.
The dead running from Waverley to Pyrmont would be seem to be a lot less than from Leichhardt to BJI.

And it would get the 389 back on the eastern suburbs maps.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Merc1107 »

Fleet Lists wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 8:29 am
HHH wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 10:14 pm
If Transit Systems R6 lost such an amount of routes like 305, 308, 348, 389 & 440, this would affect the service kilometres and reduce the staffing levels which could be a breach of contract.
The contract would be based on a cost per kilometer operated. The number of kilometers can be increased or decreased within reason without a breach of contract. Also TSA may have been made aware that some routes may be reallocated to region 9 once a review of that region took place.
There were some fairly significant changes in Perth's northern suburbs early last year that saw one operator and one of their contracts loose a dozen or so buses to a neighbouring contract area (with a competing operator) who picked up a fair amount of service kilometres from the redesigned network and timetables.

While I doubt the contracts in NSW are perfectly identical to those in W.A., I imagine there would be provisions in place for the service reviews and network redesigns that inevitably occur over time.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

TSA has already had a number of its routes either withdrawn (M10 & M50) or curtailed (430) with others in the pipeline (320 & 420), so clearly provisions exist in the contract.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by lyjjimmy »

stupid_girl wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:43 pm
Fleet Lists wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 8:34 pm map https://www.mysydney.nsw.gov.au/sites/d ... %20map.pdf
I would think that the reduction in services overall would make room for the extra routes to be operated by region 9. Keep in mind that the deletion of the University of NSW routes has already made quite a considerable number of bus (spots) available. But time will tell if this interpretation is correct. TSA may not be too happy to loose those routes from region 6.
If Transit Systems loses 305,308,320,348,389,440, then they may allocate additional resources to inner west.
I doubt there is still an area in R6 that requires significant boost in service given R6 already finished network review and has been worked for some time. or are they just reserving capacity to provide StationLink like services once Bankstown Line conversion to metro commences?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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There is no guarantee that the Bankstown temporary replacement services will go to the R6 operator. But it is another aspect to be considered.
If routes 305,308,320,348,389,440 are all transferred to R9, it is more likely that a number of buses will also be transferred
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

How's the use of the bendy fleet going in the east? Improved from previous years or still being used in a haphazard illogical way all too often and being put away when they could be sorely utilised?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by HHH »

Linto63 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:10 am TSA has already had a number of its routes either withdrawn (M10 & M50) or curtailed (430) with others in the pipeline (320 & 420), so clearly provisions exist in the contract.
1/2 of the M50 became the 503 peak hour only and 1/2 of the M10 was converted to additional 440 services. Some of the excess kilometres were put into making the 502 operate during the off peak from Cabarita to Drummoyne plus increases to 461X and 438X.

The 303 is tipped to be transferred to region 6.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Swift wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 4:33 pm How's the use of the bendy fleet going in the east? Improved from previous years or still being used in a haphazard illogical way all too often and being put away when they could be sorely utilised?
Most of the demand for these was along the City/Central to Kingsford corridor, much of which has been absorbed by the trams.

I guess they would be used on the new 396 trunk route.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Ray »

Random thought. Does this mean that the same principle applied here will apply in Region 6? Curtail all services at Central, dump passengers onto the light rail? Kinda weird that the old George St services are going to outlive the Elizabeth St services in the CBD, even though they were more directly displaced by the light rail.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Ray wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:19 pm Random thought. Does this mean that the same principle applied here will apply in Region 6? Curtail all services at Central, dump passengers onto the light rail? Kinda weird that the old George St services are going to outlive the Elizabeth St services in the CBD, even though they were more directly displaced by the light rail.

Can the Rawson Place interchange cater for so many movements?

Having said that, at the moment it's a bit underutilised.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

The Haymarket interchange is ok in terms of number of routes using the stop and it’s a good idea in principle, but man it’s poorly executed at the moment with timing.

There have already been several times when I’ve come on an L2, inbound, with the intention of changing at Haymarket LR for the bus stop, and it always goes like, 438X, 440 and 461X bunch up at the same time and the tram will be held at the traffic lights just long enough for you to miss those buses and the next bus is 8-9 minutes away, which leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Again, good idea, but needs better execution
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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I cant see them doing that to region 6 services. The Light Rail has always been planned as a region 9 route replacement and not region 6. If all region 6 bus have to interchange at Haymarket this would slow the services down at that location and that is something they would want to avoid at all costs after the bad publicity they have had about that aspect of the Light Rail. Also from Circular Quay there would be greater loads on the Light Rail with the possibility that R9 passengers would miss out if overloads occurred. Again not desirable.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by stupid_girl »

http://data.sydneylightrail.transport.n ... lume_2.pdf
Page 127 mentioned that "About 50% of Inner West bus routes will terminate after stopping at the Rawson Place light rail stop and in Campbell Street north of Belmore Park".
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