New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Cazza
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:26 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

Or even Randwick...
Qantas94Heavy
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:16 pm

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Qantas94Heavy »

If there was only to be one frequent route, would it look something like the current 400? Most likely.
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.

If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:

Image

... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:

Image

You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.

There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.

So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
stupid_girl
Posts: 933
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by stupid_girl »

Qantas94Heavy wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:22 pm If there was only to be one frequent route, would it look something like the current 400? Most likely.
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.

If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:

Image

... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:

Image

You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.

There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.

So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
Yes, this is still a better option in my humble opinion.

The demand from Anzac Parade south of Maroubra does not warrant 390X with 399. It is better served by a combination of 394 and 399.
User avatar
swtt
Posts: 5665
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

The trouble is, the new Frequent routes will have a 10 min day time frequency (and increasing as needed during peaks), but the current Route 400 runs every 7-8 min during the day already.

I'm guessing it's a bit of a frequency cut between the current Eastgardens to Frenchmans Road leg if the 390X/350 proposal is to proceed as is, unless something props up the service between Maroubra Jn-Kingsford-Randwick corridor.
grog
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:09 am
Location: Sydney

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by grog »

Frequent means at least every 10 minutes - 333 is called a frequent even though it generally operates every 6 minutes all day, and much more frequently when required.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

grog wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:53 am Frequent means at least every 10 minutes - 333 is called a frequent even though it generally operates every 6 minutes all day, and much more frequently when required.
Or, to paraphrase from tram days of yore: "always a bus in sight". (Then there's the conga line .... :shock: )
HHH
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:45 pm

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by HHH »

The network changes will be a great opportunity for the 320 to be removed from the operation by region 6 and transferred to region 9. Maybe the 303 could be offloaded to region 6 as a trade for 320.

The 320 will most likely be modified to no longer operate to and from Gore Hill at a later date and will mean changes to other timetables.
Michael Bamborough
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:51 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Michael Bamborough »

stupid_girl wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 9:32 pm
Qantas94Heavy wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:22 pm If there was only to be one frequent route, would it look something like the current 400? Most likely.
However, from a whole network planning perspective, reducing unnecessary duplicate running can unlock service km to improve frequencies or open new routes instead.

If we compare the proposed 390X + 350 option:

Image

... with the 400 + 350 + 394 option:

Image

You'll notice that you end up with additional duplication between UNSW and Maroubra Jn, and between Marouba Jn and Eastgardens.
This means you'll need more buses to run such a service. Either you've got to get more funding, run these routes less often or cut routes/frequencies elsewhere.

There probably isn't much scope to cut other routes, so you'd most likely have to cut frequency on the 350 to every 20 minutes.
Or maybe cut the 394 and 350 to every 15 minutes instead.

So I guess the question is whether such a tradeoff would be worth it. Would this still be a better option than the current proposal?
Yes, this is still a better option in my humble opinion.

The demand from Anzac Parade south of Maroubra does not warrant 390X with 399. It is better served by a combination of 394 and 399.
To be honest i think i'd be fine fine with 350+390X Option but only if they keep the 357 as it is and have it extend to the Airport to help provide direct connection to the Airport from Randwick & Kingsford(Plus Rosebery/Eastlakes aswell.). And perhaps add in the Route 359 Which can Operate Between Eastgardens, Maroubra, Randwick & Bondi Junction. This service help to continue providing direct services to eastgardens from around Anzac Parade/Rainbow street & Randwick.
User avatar
Ray
Posts: 1150
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:13 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Ray »

I know that any depot can operate any route within the region and we have optimisation etc etc. However, it seems that we can speculate on certain depot-specific trends as follows.

* Waverley: least affected. Will probably pick up 389 by the look of things. We may see work off-loaded to R and P to balance things out. So we are less likely to see W buses turning up outside of the classic W territory. Routes like 311, 313 which are partly W operated now likely to be completely R.

* 350, 390X more likely to be dominated by Port Botany.

* 375, 339 more likely to be dominated by Randwick. But these are short routes - will we see more R buses on 333 and 380 to balance it out?

Again, I know that any East depot can theoretically operate any route. But it seems moving a clean block of work is the only way to even out workflow between the three.
Go Cats.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Fleet Lists »

Until timetables are development for the new route structure which is still subject to change and then shifts are developed from there, it will be pretty hard to say how they can optimize which depot will work what. And I dont think there is such a thing as moving clean blocks of work.
Living in the Shire.
Merc1107
Posts: 2243
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Favourite Vehicle: MAN 18.310, MB O405NH, L94
Location: A Coastal City

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Merc1107 »

Bit hard to speculate what depot gets what. Even between those run by the same contractor (or Government entity), rosters and the hours worked can vary quite a bit and as a result, it can be very difficult to make changes to without causing very serious upsets in the workplace. Just because X depot is closest to Y terminus doesn't mean they'll have the monopoly on runs from there - there are other considerations an operator must consider in addition to dead-running.
pylelo
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:47 pm

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by pylelo »

Qantas94Heavy wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:57 am I'd actually agree with sending the 370 to Glebe Point instead. The 431 can either become a peak only service or scrapped entirely.
It'd deliver a better link between Glebe and Newtown. 433 and light rail serves much of the Glebe Point to City catchment.
I'd like to defend the 431 here..
  • the westerly end of Glebe Pt Rd is a medium/high-density catchment does generate decent patronage inbound
  • acts as the reliable 'on-time' operations due to its relatively short route
  • late night options on the route are often patronised well (particularly pre-COVID with student/travel accomodation)
Whatever you do with the 370 there are likely to be more losers than winners, it provides such diverse intra-route connectivity that you're best off keeping it as it is..
User avatar
J_Busworth
Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:56 am
Favourite Vehicle: Scania L113TRB Ansair Orana
Location: On the X74, because it's faster than the tram
Contact:

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

It is very hard to speculate about which depots will operate each route in the East, as of late there hasn't really been much demarcation between each of the depot territory.

There are Port Botany 360s, 380s and 387s every day of the week, and during daylight savings its not uncommon to see Port on 333s as well. It isn't uncommon for a Port Botany shift to start with a 400 to BJI and then operate a round trip out of BJI of something else before completing the return 400, so there is no reason why Port 390Xs couldn't do the same. Waverley even does Anzac Parade express trips in the AM peak as well in the current arrangement!

I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
https://transportnswblog.com
RIP STA L113s 28/01/93 - 12/01/22
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

J_Busworth wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am
I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
By low floor I presume you mean low entry? So despite this, they're non accessible? Don't they have ramps or is there some other reason?
Nugget
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:17 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Nugget »

tonyp wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:23 am By low floor I presume you mean low entry? So despite this, they're non accessible? Don't they have ramps or is there some other reason?
From memory having ridden on these they are low floor as in all the way to rear steps but have no wheelchair ramp or space. They were the precursor to the wheelchair accessibles that had the ramp at the rear door.
User avatar
J_Busworth
Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:56 am
Favourite Vehicle: Scania L113TRB Ansair Orana
Location: On the X74, because it's faster than the tram
Contact:

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

tonyp wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:23 am
J_Busworth wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am
I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
By low floor I presume you mean low entry? So despite this, they're non accessible? Don't they have ramps or is there some other reason?
Yes, I mean low entry. They are colloquially known as low floor Scanias, to distinguish from the high floor Scania Oranas. They are the original low entry buses, fully flat to the back door but no ramp or wheelchair space. Halfway through the order, buses began being delivered with a ramp and wheelchair space at the back door, but the ones currently at Randwick predate this.
https://transportnswblog.com
RIP STA L113s 28/01/93 - 12/01/22
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

J_Busworth wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am I would be curious to see if any of Randwick's low floor Scania Orana fleet survive beyond the chnages. Only one of 30 Oranas at R is wheelchair accessible, and they are all currently limited to set non wheelchair shifts. Would this arrangement of having set non wheelchair trips continue when the changes are implemented or will the buses be withdrawn?
This would depend on there being enough replacement buses being delivered by that time?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Fleet Lists »

It is thought that less buses would be required for the changed network hence it may not be dependent on replacement buses, or least a smaller number of replacement buses than the number withdrawn.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Ray
Posts: 1150
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:13 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Ray »

thanks j_Busworth that was an interesting observation. I agree that it is hard to associate certain routes with a particular depot. For example 288 and 292 must be about 50% Ryde and you can't really say it "belongs" anywhere other than Region 7.

That said, I think some routes are predominantly operated by certain depots with only rare exceptions. 202 and 207 are examples.

I would love to see the % breakdown route-by-route. It is possible to do rough calculations using Anytrip for certain routes e.g. it is easy to isolate Willoughby buses because their combination of body/chassis is mostly different to that used at Ryde. But it is impossible to do that in the east.

Returning to the point of this thread - i am still attached to the idea that certain routes are "predominantly" operated by certain depots. I imagine the majority of Watsons Bay services, for example, are Waverley. But as I said I can't really confirm this.
Go Cats.
User avatar
pgt
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:05 pm
Favourite Vehicle: MAN SL202/MB O305G/Volvo B10M
Contact:

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by pgt »

Ray wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:42 pm Returning to the point of this thread - i am still attached to the idea that certain routes are "predominantly" operated by certain depots. I imagine the majority of Watsons Bay services, for example, are Waverley. But as I said I can't really confirm this.
From noting what happened on say route 144, where after the last set of changes on weekdays the vast majority of services (but not all) are operated by North Sydney, but on weekends it seems to be nearly exclusive to Brookvale operated buses, something similar could end up happening for at least some of the Eastern Suburbs routes - the "high frequency" ones at least.
"It's my way or the (side of the) highway".
Might be a way to lead life, but more like the way that some people drive.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

It's very sad that Willo lost their smattering of 144 runs. It made for a nice change to the usual boring lower north shore runs and Eppings. The passengers were totally different too in the way they tended to treat the driver like a human being abit more than the snobby master servant thought process that seemed to go on with the rest.
That all may have changed a little since I did it 20 years ago. I do notice passengers now thanking the driver from the centre doors a lot which rarely happened in my day.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Fleet Lists »

Previous post is Off subject - please back to the region 9 discussion.
Living in the Shire.
Nugget
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:17 am

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Nugget »

J_Busworth wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:53 am It is very hard to speculate about which depots will operate each route in the East, as of late there hasn't really been much demarcation between each of the depot territory.
Back in the day the *39 was almost exclusively R to the point they even had Sydney Explorers doing the odd run.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Some X39 and some other X runs were operated by Explorer buses heading into the city to start runs, rather than going in empty. They also operated outbound runs on the way back to the depot.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 13247
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

I did notice the buses on each run were often from different depots when I was last in Maroubra on a regular basis in 19. I can't imagine what it's like now.
They weren't like that before when you could predict where they were from most of the time.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”