New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

[hornetfig]

Where are these transfer points? eg If say you're on a 374 ex north Coogee and need to change to a tram?

Depends on where you are going on the tram. You could transfer at the racecourse stops, or at Foveaux/Chalmers St if you want to go further down George St.

Because of the design of the pedestrian integration in the Centennial and Moore Park precincts this is hundreds of metres of walking. Acceptable if wholly undercover for a railway interchange but not really practical for a bus-tram interchange; moreso at 10+ minute service frequencies.

[boronia]

At Moore Park inbound, you could get off at the High School and use the bridge to cross to the tram stop. A bit more difficult the other way because you do have to walk some distance and get across Lang Rd.

At the racecourse, the 374 uses the bus roadway, so it is reasonably easy to swap over to/from the bus at the stops on the roadway near Doncaster Ave, no roads to cross.

[Nugget]

Because of the design of the pedestrian integration in the Centennial and Moore Park precincts this is hundreds of metres of walking. Acceptable if wholly undercover for a railway interchange but not really practical for a bus-tram interchange; moreso at 10+ minute service frequencies.

The node transfers do leave a lot to be desired and the original designs for the Randwick Junction interchange have not occurred so I can see why people question transfers. However, the theory is sound, as usual the implementation has been less than desirable. Ideally you'd want a transfer node that is much like Chatswood or Bondi where the different modes are integrated and easily accessible.

[Swift]

Why the continued obstinate refusal to use the Kingsford bus light rail interchange?

[Nugget]

Why the continued obstinate refusal to use the Kingsford bus light rail interchange?

The majority of the Coogee routes (and the one that hornet was asking about) go through Randwick Junction rather than Kingsford. Kingsford works if your coming from the far south east. I suspect the road infrastructure doesn't support routing all the Coogee buses through Kingsford.

[tonyp]

I think Swift meant: why isn't the Kingsford interchange already being used by buses on the Anzac Pde sector?

Any potential for interchange along the Randwick branch has been trashed by poor design. Moore Park would have been a great one, for the Kingsford branch too. In these circumstances, the fair solution for commuters on the Randwick sector would be to continue running the buses through to Circular Quay. The only way they can partly salvage it is to put that stop in that they were going to have in Avoca at the corner of High (and put a shelter from it to the tram platform). In the outward direction there's no hope of anything comfortable within proximity.

[J_Busworth]

Neither of the proposed 339 or 374 use the bus roadway, nor do they have an easy transfer point from the tram. Central is realistically the easiest transfer point, but at that point you wouldn’t bother with the tram when the train network is right there. Frankly, the best option to get into the City would be to change to a 396 on Anzac Parade at Cleveland Street. That’s what I expect the majority of 339/374 patrons heading to the CBD proper will do, given they won’t run on the busroad specifically to ensure this ease of connection.

On the topic of the Randwick interchange, something needs to be done about the inbound stop location. There needs to be an inbound stop significantly closer to the light rail terminus. Otherwise people will be well within their right to complain about an interchange at a light rail stop where buses don’t actually stop.

I doubt they will actually listen to any feedback provided, instead preferring to steam ahead with their plan. If they do chose to listen to feedback, it will be small things. Things like actually designating the 396 as a frequent route (it’s not in the proposal, regardless of the supposed frequency) or extending the 374 further into the CBD would provide them with an opportunity to claim that they have listened to demands for more buses into the CBD without actually having to redraw the network.

The overall effort to provide proper and useful information about the proposed changes has been pretty poor. A lot of misinformation seems to be circulating in the east, which largely amounts to a scare campaign. Noise is being made about how the 353 and 400 are being cut, without recognising they are actually being replaced by the 350 and 390. They are handing out hard copy brochures, although they don’t actually do a good job of exposing what is actually changing. Regardless, of the dozen buses I caught in the past week, only one had the brochures onboard, and I’ve seen them handing them out at a stop once (Martin Place in the PM peak).

[Linto63]

Why the continued obstinate refusal to use the Kingsford bus light rail interchange?

Possibly because the penny has dropped that having buses shuffle to the right, que in the right hand turn bay and then shuffle to the left on exiting, adds to journey times. Track a 400 and an equivalent 3xx route from Kingsford to Maroubra Junction and that will show.

[Nugget]

Noise is being made about how the 353 and 400 are being cut, without recognising they are actually being replaced by the 350 and 390.

You wonder why they didn't just keep the numbers and change the route.

[swtt]

Noise is being made about how the 353 and 400 are being cut, without recognising they are actually being replaced by the 350 and 390.

You wonder why they didn't just keep the numbers and change the route.

Because that would cause confusion with old route, for at least a month.

[Fleet Lists]

And because 400 is basically a Western Suburbs route number and not an Eastern Suburbs one. That was a mistake made when the route was split. 400 should have been used for the western part and a new number allocated to the eastern part.

[Jurassic_Joke]

Noise is being made about how the 353 and 400 are being cut, without recognising they are actually being replaced by the 350 and 390.

In the 400’s case, because it’s sh*t. I understand most of the others but this one, I think they have massively screwed up here and will need to go back to the drawing board or just drop it.

Replacing a perfectly good route that’s worked for decades and interchanges with other useful bus routes and passes by some key points of interest with a different route that looks almost inevitable to be slower to get to the airport. Plus, the light rail won’t have an interchange with an airport bus anymore, which I found very useful at UNSW High St or the end of L3’s line to get to the airport without paying the Station fee. I also have a bad feeling the LIMITED STOPS aspect is quietly also being dropped in the 350 replacement as there’s no reference to it being limited stops.

Maybe if it ain’t broke don’t fix it?

[Swift]

Why the continued obstinate refusal to use the Kingsford bus light rail interchange?

Possibly because the penny has dropped that having buses shuffle to the right, que in the right hand turn bay and then shuffle to the left on exiting, adds to journey times. Track a 400 and an equivalent 3xx route from Kingsford to Maroubra Junction and that will show.

Sounds like a dance I once heard about.

[jake_s_258]

So the 303 will basically become a UNSW shuttle from the southern suburbs, not even linking with the 304 to/from the CBD. Princes of Wales Hospital seems an odd terminus for it too - its like they just needed somewhere near Randwick and went 'there will do'.

[tonyp]

So the 303 will basically become a UNSW shuttle from the southern suburbs, not even linking with the 304 to/from the CBD. Princes of Wales Hospital seems an odd terminus for it too - its like they just needed somewhere near Randwick and went 'there will do'.

POWH campus is a big source of patronage in its own right and is soon to get bigger.

[Cazza]

But Randwick Junction is an even BIGGER source of patronage, as well as the abundance of onward connections.

[stupid_girl]

At Moore Park inbound, you could get off at the High School and use the bridge to cross to the tram stop. A bit more difficult the other way because you do have to walk some distance and get across Lang Rd.

At the racecourse, the 374 uses the bus roadway, so it is reasonably easy to swap over to/from the bus at the stops on the roadway near Doncaster Ave, no roads to cross.

If 374 is diverted via Cleveland Street, then it would follow 372 and not use the bus roadway anymore.

Noise is being made about how the 353 and 400 are being cut, without recognising they are actually being replaced by the 350 and 390.

In the 400’s case, because it’s sh*t. I understand most of the others but this one, I think they have massively screwed up here and will need to go back to the drawing board or just drop it.

Replacing a perfectly good route that’s worked for decades and interchanges with other useful bus routes and passes by some key points of interest with a different route that looks almost inevitable to be slower to get to the airport. Plus, the light rail won’t have an interchange with an airport bus anymore, which I found very useful at UNSW High St or the end of L3’s line to get to the airport without paying the Station fee. I also have a bad feeling the LIMITED STOPS aspect is quietly also being dropped in the 350 replacement as there’s no reference to it being limited stops.

Maybe if it ain’t broke don’t fix it?

I agree that 400 should stay and become a frequent route. If numbering is a serious concern, then just re-number it as 390X.

Anzac Parade south of Maroubra can instead be served by a new feeder bus route 394 (UNSW-La Perouse) providing a combined frequency with 399 (UNSW-Little Bay). Meanwhile, 350 can be cut back to Eastgardens.

So the 303 will basically become a UNSW shuttle from the southern suburbs, not even linking with the 304 to/from the CBD. Princes of Wales Hospital seems an odd terminus for it too - its like they just needed somewhere near Randwick and went 'there will do'.

I wonder how 303 goes from Day Ave to Barker St. I would rather have it routed via High St towards Randwick/Coogee for better interchange options.

[boronia]

[quote=stupid_girl post_id=1078164 time=1621063065 user_id=

I wonder how 303 goes from Day Ave to Barker St. I would rather have it routed via High St towards Randwick/Coogee for better interchange options.
[/quote]

No right turn from Day into Anzac Pde, but could turn right the block before..

[Qantas94Heavy]

Arguably keeping 400 as is and truncating 394 to UNSW would make for a worse network than the current proposal.
I doubt numbering is a concern, it's more an attempt to make the 394 more than a mere light rail shuttle.

For route 400, to travel west of Eastgardens you'd either have to wait for the Airport-bound bus (every 20 minutes) or change for route 420 anyway.
Plus there's other options like route 358 or trains from Mascot station anyway.
So the main focus would be travel to Eastgardens.

• The main stop that will lose a direct service to Eastgardens is Anzac Pde/Avoca St, but the interchange is only ~100 metres around the corner without needing to cross any roads.
• Stops on High St, Cook St and Frenchmans Rd have a same-stop interchange for route 392. As 392 is faster between UNSW and Eastgardens, this negates most of the interchange penalty.
• Randwick customers are still served by route 356, and other stops are served by route 350.

[Jurassic_Joke]

Part of the big appeal of the 400 is, the Limited Stops, especially so to and from the Airport. Until confirmed otherwise as limited stops is not specifically mentioned in the document nor any X-prefix, the 350 is an all-stops route, so thats already more journey time added between Maroubra and the Airport. Not to mention the rest of the route is an orbit around the outer corners of South-East Sydney, it’s almost as if they want to make it harder for people to change to the Airport bus. Your current interchange options for 400 if you live in the East and want to use it for the Airport are very generous - if not Mascot Station, you have Randwick Jn, UNSW High St LR, Juniors Kingsford LR and Maroubra Jn (Bondi Junction in my opinion not so viable, too far from Airport). With the 350, that drops down to just Mascot Station and Maroubra Jn. Considering the cut to Anzac Parade buses, probably Mascots only still viable and even there, no more 420 lest there be a problem with the 350.

I’d be more in support of just retain 400 as is as it clearly works and has pretty much nothing to do with the Light Rail (which is what’s sparking this bus overhaul anyway), bin the 350 and instead let 390x be the proposed route of 350 to Maroubra, then run south as proposed.

[Swift]

They always have to fiddle with a successful thing in Sydney even if eventually.
It quickly built up a profile with it's catchment for being something you could turn to fit a quick and frequent service without the slow all stops experience you get with regular routes. It was a good balance and they just discard it like trash. I know who I think are the real trash.
It's an acronym beginning with "Tango".

[Stu]

The overall effort to provide proper and useful information about the proposed changes has been pretty poor. A lot of misinformation seems to be circulating in the east, which largely amounts to a scare campaign. Noise is being made about how the 353 and 400 are being cut, without recognising they are actually being replaced by the 350 and 390. They are handing out hard copy brochures, although they don’t actually do a good job of exposing what is actually changing. Regardless, of the dozen buses I caught in the past week, only one had the brochures onboard, and I’ve seen them handing them out at a stop once (Martin Place in the PM peak).

The 350 is slightly different to the 353, the 353 currently operates via Maroubra Beach whilst proposed 350 operates directly along Malabar Rd into Maroubra Rd.

When the 353 was first introduced in 2000, the service operated to the airport as it was a partial replacement of a former Airport Express service - route 351 North Bondi to Airport. The 353 was also implemented to provide a more direct service from Bondi Jct. to Coogee Beach and also linking Bondi Jct. to Maroubra Beach.

[stupid_girl]

Arguably keeping 400 as is and truncating 394 to UNSW would make for a worse network than the current proposal.
I doubt numbering is a concern, it's more an attempt to make the 394 more than a mere light rail shuttle.

For route 400, to travel west of Eastgardens you'd either have to wait for the Airport-bound bus (every 20 minutes) or change for route 420 anyway.
Plus there's other options like route 358 or trains from Mascot station anyway.
So the main focus would be travel to Eastgardens.

• The main stop that will lose a direct service to Eastgardens is Anzac Pde/Avoca St, but the interchange is only ~100 metres around the corner without needing to cross any roads.
• Stops on High St, Cook St and Frenchmans Rd have a same-stop interchange for route 392. As 392 is faster between UNSW and Eastgardens, this negates most of the interchange penalty.
• Randwick customers are still served by route 356, and other stops are served by route 350.

By upgrading 400 to a frequent route (and shortening 350 to Eastgardens), it would maintain a direct link from Airport/Mascot area to Kingsford/Randwick area, which is a better patronage generator than Coogee. I don't see how the proposed 390X can achieve a better outcome than 400. The demand from Anzac Parade south of Maroubra can be well served by a combination of 394 and 399.

[Stu]

Some ideas...

350.
Follow route 400. Eastgardens to Bondi Jct. Limited stops.

353.
Reinstated to its current form. Eastgardens to Bondi Jct.

390X.
Renumbered to 390. La Perouse to Kingsford. All stops. Passengers can transfer at Maroubra for route 396 and transfer at Kingsford for the tram.

400.
Renumbered to 350.

[stupid_girl]

Some ideas...

350.
Follow route 400. Eastgardens to Bondi Jct. Limited stops.

353.
Reinstated to its current form. Eastgardens to Bondi Jct.

390X.
Renumbered to 390. La Perouse to Kingsford. All stops. Passengers can transfer at Maroubra for route 396 and transfer at Kingsford for the tram.

400.
Renumbered to 350.

It would be desirable to extend your proposed 390 to UNSW. The extra mileage between Kingsford and UNSW is minimal.