New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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1whoknows
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by 1whoknows »

I got as far as the proposed "rapid" bus route from Railway Square to Sutherland Hospital via Princes Highway before ROFLing.
Tried driving that route lately? The word rapid does not immediately come to mind.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by grog »

Depends how it is done...
The preferred scenario includes new rapid bus lines linking strategic centres, employment hubs and the Harbour CBD. This will be a network of high frequency, on-road bus services benefitting from infrastructure that delivers vehicle priority and high quality stops, with signage and wayfinding. The delivery of rapid bus lines will include the broader rollout of traffic signal priority for buses on this network and the allocation of road space from general traffic to buses.
The proposed rapid bus network will offer:
 High frequency (‘B-line style’ turn up and go) with extended operating hours through the day and at weekends
On-road bus priority through the reallocation of road space
 High quality, accessible bus stop structures and interchange locations
 Signage and quality wayfinding
Electronic priority at signalised intersections to reduce delay and trip length.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by STMPainter2018 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:41 pm Why would you want to prolong even further the existing agony when there are alternatives that will do it much quicker? The only reason for extending L3 to Maroubra Jct is to connect with the proposed SE metro. With a bus interchange already established at Kingsford, it is pointless to create another one at Maroubra Jct. I would have liked to see CSELR extend to Coogee and Maroubra Beach, but with the running times as they are it would be completely pointless.
So what are you saying? That there’s no more future for light rail in your ludicrous, Liberal-biased vision for transport expansion in Sydney? That the current system is a total failure and white elephant that’ll just whither into nothing and will eventually be ripped up and replaced by poorly thought out Metro lines that were randomly drawn on a map by people who don’t know XXX about good transport planning?! ** THAT! Give the trams a chance!

Jesus you make it seem like travel times on the L2/L3 are the most insufferable thing in the world still. Well let me tell you, as someone who actually LIVES in Sydney and uses the trams way more than you do, a total 38 minute journey time is NOT THAT BAD! I’ve had very little complaints on every service I’ve been on, what’s your excuse? Yes it could use some more refining but it would be foolish to assume this is the final runtime that the trams will be timetabled to forever. Who’s to say that times won’t be reduced to half hour running in the future? It is possible! They’ve mostly got the hang of traffic light priority now; they can get the hang of increased speeds and a tighter timetable. The CSELR hasn’t had the chance to realise its full operating potential yet, no thanks to COVID-19 ruining life and keeping people away from each other atm. Once this is all over, watch people flock to the trams! Just give trams a chance!

And why should we have to wait for a stupid, development-inducing metro line for the light rail to be extended only as far a Maroubra Junction? I think that’s a ridiculous notion; trams are generally flexible and can perform all different kinds of transport options than just rapid transit that’ll see people get from A to B in the shortest possible time. They can provide a surface transport option that carries more people than buses and that’s why they shouldn’t be discarded at the expense of metro or rapid transit buses. Hell, there’s an entire wide median strip along ANZAC Parade just waiting to be used! And with the little to no interference with road traffic, trams could travel at reasonable speeds so this idea that it’ll add extra time to the current service? I don’t buy it. There is still feasibility for trams to serve beachside suburbs like Maroubra and Coogee where metro and buses can’t easily access. In fact, I think it’s foolish to only consider just the one extension option down to Maroubra Junction just so it can interchange with another transport link! They should be extending the trams to Maroubra and Coogee beaches, and even all the way down to La Perouse along ANZAC Parade to provide a mass capacity service transport option that will suit the area better than an obtrusive Metro terminus. If anything, the metro should terminate at Malabar and interchange with the Light Rail there! I’m sorry but trams still have a future in the SE and even in other areas of Sydney, despite how it looks atm! Just give them a chance! And I’d say this to Transport for NSW as well.

And while I have the chance, I’d say that new SE transport plan has NO chance of ever being put into practice. Like previous plans of old, it’s just a flash in the plan puff piece with some lines drawn on a map which will never be realised cause they’re just too impractical and ridiculous to be built! Seriously? Randwick to Kogarah Metro line?! Give me a break! TfNSW are just completely Metro-obsessed as you are TonyP. And it won’t last! If anything I HOPE Labor eventually gets back into power so they can put an end to this nonsense. Not that I’m fully confident in their competence either but I still believe that they’ve changed enough from the Carr years that they would see reason and develop transport policies that are actually sensible and achievable. Provided they have the right influences amongst them. They’re also not developer obsessed and care way more about heritage and the environment than this mob does. So in that regard, I’d back them every time. Even at the expense of improved transport. I’m just glad I’ve got the trams back which again, DO have a future! REALISE IT!
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

I guess, unlike with Broad Gauge, I don't think I'll be asking you to keep an eye on how things develop in the future! ;)

Liberal-biased vision for Sydney? I believe it was the Hon G. Berejiklian, Liberal Member for Willoughby, who developed the idea of light rail in the face of intense opposition to the idea over the years by the Labor Party. It's still a good idea, in spite of TfNSW's blundering implementation, and may well have future validity in specific applications across Sydney. but, as I've said previously, Sydney is growing far to big to rely on trams as a backbone system any longer. But, as a supporting system where viable it's fine. The population of SE Sydney is projected to double and people need somewhere to live - that requires heavy rail.'

I seem to recall that the previous Labor government was into metro as well - but the difference was that it was against trams, whereas the present government is open to considering a mixture on a where-appropriate basis.

I'd say on the evidence that any zealous tram-supporting person worth their salt should be voting Liberal in NSW. :wink: :lol:
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by BroadGauge »

STMPainter2018 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:46 amWell let me tell you, as someone who actually LIVES in Sydney and uses the trams way more than you do, a total 38 minute journey time is NOT THAT BAD!
It only takes 50 minutes (off-peak) to drive to Circular Quay from a property that I own 50km away in the Hawkesbury district, although sadly it costs about $20 in tolls as well :twisted:

I'd be complaining if I'd paid a significant premium to live just a few kilometres away in Randwick, yet it still took 38 minutes to get there on an expensive new transport system that has it's own right of way.

Anyway speaking of the L2 line, did anybody else see the news reports about passengers on an X39 bus being asked to self-isolate for two weeks after an infected person had traveled with them, and thought it was a shame they hadn't been using the light rail where it would be easier to spread out? ;)
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by grog »

How long does that drive take in the peak ;)
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

:!:
grog wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:14 am How long does that drive take in the peak ;)
I know the drive is quicker than the tram, as I catch a bus from Coogee to Town Hall each morning and it takes between 25 and 30 minutes depending on traffic. Until such a day that there isn’t a bus between Coogee and the CBD, I won’t catch the tram. An even when there is no direct bus to the CBD, I will still not catch the tram. The bus to Bondi Junction and then the train is quicker (takes about 30 minutes), whereas on the tram I would only be to Central in that time.

In terms of the proposed Sydney Metro West Eastern Expansion, I wouldn’t say that it is going to cause development in the South East, I think the development will happen regardless. In proposing that line they are planning ahead for what will happen and signalling that they are ready to consider a vital link that should be built. The combination of tram, metro and rapid bus will give the South East the best transport network in the Australia, if not one of the better ones worldwide. I think extending the light rail to Maroubra Junction (to connect with Metro) and to Coogee Beach is a good idea and should happen, if only to provide more options and a more comprehensive network.

I wonder if they will consider any of the potential bus routes in this plan for the eventual changes to the bus network? I’d imagine they wouldn’t l, but one can hopeS
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

J_Busworth wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:28 pm :!:
grog wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:14 am How long does that drive take in the peak ;)
I know the drive is quicker than the tram, as I catch a bus from Coogee to Town Hall each morning and it takes between 25 and 30 minutes depending on traffic.
I think Grog was referring to BroadGauge's drive from 50 km out of Sydney. The metro from Castle Hill, when stage 2 is completed, will get to the northern CBD faster than the tram from Randwick or Kingsford, but that's the way things are with inner-city street transit generally. The residents of the further parts of SE Sydney will sure appreciate the quick metro trip, no question. In terms of journey time, street transit has its definite limits.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

I caught an eastbound 400 bus from Eastgardens to Kingsford yesterday to observe the "interchange". Two of us got off; I wanted to catch the tram, but in typical Sydney fashion it departed just as the bus opened its doors. (I could have used a direct bus service from EG to my destination in Kensington).

The other passenger, a middle aged lady, made a beeline for the Souths Juniors club. I can see this stop being used now, as the next 400 stop is some considerable distance from Nineways. I wonder if the club had some input?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Get the tram to your next scam.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:13 pm
The other passenger, a middle aged lady, made a beeline for the Souths Juniors club. I can see this stop being used now, as the next 400 stop is some considerable distance from Nineways. I wonder if the club had some input?
The lady was probably on to something - having a beer while waiting for the next tram. Juniors is the defacto RRR for the interchange. 8)
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

I'll keep that in mind for my next trip. I'm a member there too.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

The next round of the changes to the bus network arising from CSELR will occur on 25 October as part of wider changes to the Inner West network. Routes M10 and M50 will be effectively discontinued without replacement in the eastern half, with the trams and other bus routes expected to take up the slack.
Already, Marjorie and Michael Daley have been crying foul and demanding that the routes be reinstated, although their gripe with the changes appear to be more so with the lack of community consultation more than anything.

Its increasingly looking like this new network is more a series of staggered changes as opposed to one big shift all at once, with the return to High Street and now Metrobus cuts occurring without any other changes in the East, and instead part of wider changes across Sydney. I would presume that at some point there will be a wider shifty in the network, but by that point many of the necessary changes could well have been implemented. I can so no reason why there shouldn't be a number of additional smaller changes before a big change was to occur based on the current trajectory.

Mentioned in its own thread, but I thought it belonged here too in context of the wider discussion.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Aurora »

grog wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:20 am Depends how it is done...
The preferred scenario includes new rapid bus lines linking strategic centres, employment hubs and the Harbour CBD. This will be a network of high frequency, on-road bus services benefitting from infrastructure that delivers vehicle priority and high quality stops, with signage and wayfinding. The delivery of rapid bus lines will include the broader rollout of traffic signal priority for buses on this network and the allocation of road space from general traffic to buses.
The proposed rapid bus network will offer:
 High frequency (‘B-line style’ turn up and go) with extended operating hours through the day and at weekends
On-road bus priority through the reallocation of road space
 High quality, accessible bus stop structures and interchange locations
 Signage and quality wayfinding
Electronic priority at signalised intersections to reduce delay and trip length.
Whenever they say traffic priority I take it with a grain of salt. I don’t think they know what that really means.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

Local MPs O'Neill and Daley have presented a petition totalling 20,000 signatures to Parliament today opposing the bus changes. I recall the procedure is that 10,000 is the number required for it to be debated.

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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

tonyp wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:23 pm Local MPs O'Neill and Daley have presented a petition totalling 20,000 signatures to Parliament today opposing the bus changes. I recall the procedure is that 10,000 is the number required for it to be debated.

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Opposing what bus changes? M10 and M50 being killed off from 25/10?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

From Marjorie O'Neill:
Save Our Buses Campaign Update

This week in Parliament, Michael Daley MP, the Member for Maroubra and I each tabled a 10,000 signature petition on behalf of our communities to save our buses.

As you would know, the NSW Liberal Government is proposing to cut 16 local bus routes from our area - the equivalent of removing 1600 buses from the network each weekday.

Under the NSW Government plan:

❌ The 302, 314, 317, 373, 376, 377, 393, 394, 395, 397, 399, L94, 891, 893 services will be completely cancelled. The M10, M50 are going as early as October.

❌ The 303, 307, 313, 316, 348, 370, 374, 391, 392, and 400 will be changed to now only go to Randwick, Kingsford or will be sent elsewhere.

❌ Only 4 new routes will be introduced to replace the 16 being cancelled.

These are in addition to the 378 and the 361 that have already been removed without any community consultation.

We will continue to fight to save our wonderful buses. If you would like to join the campaign to save our local buses, please email my office or sign and return the Save Our Buses petition to my office.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

400 will be changed to go elsewhere?!? Can't see that happening!

307 is heading off to where? It's got nothing to do with the CSELR.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by buzzkill »

You said
STMPainter2018 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:46 am
[...]
THAT! Give the trams a chance!

[...]
If anything I HOPE Labor eventually gets back into power so they can put an end to this nonsense. Not that I’m fully confident in their competence either but I still believe that they’ve changed enough from the Carr years that they would see reason and develop transport policies that are actually sensible and achievable.
You said to give trams a chance, which I fully agree with and support.

Then you said you hope Labor gets back in power.... and I did a double-take... you know, the guys who were so instinctively, so viscerally opposed to Light Rail, that their leader openly talked about ripping it up!
https://www.2gb.com/labor-will-tear-up- ... a-scourge/

Labor opposed Light Rail from the get-go, since Luke Foley days. They kept opposing it. I can't see them ever advocating for extension of CSELR.

Case in point: Both Maroubra and Coogee MPs belong to Labor. Instead of advocating extensions of LR to areas like Maroubra or Eastgardens, their current transport obsession is only to make sure bus routes continue as if nothing happened, with zero changes - which sounds nonsensical to borderline delusional, given the tram's role.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

swtt wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:45 pm 400 will be changed to go elsewhere?!? Can't see that happening!

307 is heading off to where? It's got nothing to do with the CSELR.
You can't expect the average politician to be fully across details! I'd take it as an expression of concern about bus cutbacks in general, rational or not. What has me intrigued is 20,000 signatures. That's a display of public opinion that can't be lightly dismissed.
buzzkill wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:10 am
Labor opposed Light Rail from the get-go, since Luke Foley days. They kept opposing it. I can't see them ever advocating for extension of CSELR.
Many tram fans suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. They love trams and they support Labor (which has actually been consistently opposing trams since the 1950s) but they struggle to reconcile the two! A subset is the save the government buses supporters among tram fans, cheering for the organisation and its predecessors that was historically the bureaucratic mothership of anti-tram attitudes.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

I wonder how many of those 20,000 signatures regularly use buses, if it all?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote: I wonder how many of those 20,000 signatures regularly use buses, if it all?
Exactly, its the same as the rent-a-crowd mob, who will turn up to any protest. There are people who will sign any petition because it is anti-government, doesn't mean they actually believe in the cause.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:20 am
boronia wrote: I wonder how many of those 20,000 signatures regularly use buses, if it all?
Exactly, its the same as the rent-a-crowd mob, who will turn up to any protest. There are people who will sign any petition because it is anti-government, doesn't mean they actually believe in the cause.
And that's why MPs take petitions with a grain of salt -often deservedly!
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Stu »

The petition will not save the day, it will only allow for the topic to be debated in nsw parliament. The two debates in 2017 regarding franchising Region 6 were extremely weak, soft questions with predictable answers. Future debates about bus network changes to Region 9 and the franchising of the remaining regions currently operated by STA will most likely be the same.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

Stu wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:02 am The petition will not save the day, it will only allow for the topic to be debated in nsw parliament. The two debates in 2017 regarding franchising Region 6 were extremely weak, soft questions with predictable answers. Future debates about bus network changes to Region 9 and the franchising of the remaining regions currently operated by STA will most likely be the same.
Labor can still ask the hard questions. It's not a good outcome to force people into longer journey times when your stated goal is a half-hour city. The government will likely blow its chances of winning back Coogee unless it strikes some compromise.
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