New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Tess1988
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Tess1988 »

tonyp wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:59 am The original bus plan was to terminate all buses in Todman Avenue, so at some point buses would have to be released from the tram lanes. This would be earlier rather than later so that they could access kerbside bus stops. Nine Ways would be the logical place and this would be achieved with traffic light phasing.
In the following video you can see just before the Kingsford light rail stop you can see broken white lines where buses are able to change from the light rail/ bus lane to the normal traffic lane

Also would Cars have to give way to the bus, I don’t really know the NSW laws but notice they have then give way to bus but the sign has a right arrow and the bus would be turning into the left lane

https://youtu.be/DYwQ_NUxKJ0
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

At what point in the video? I'm having trouble spotting that. All I see is signs for buses to stay in the tram lanes. There would have to be some sort of traffic light control. The average Australian motorist would simply plough into the side of a bus trying to move left into the same lane otherwise.
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Tess1988
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Tess1988 »

tonyp wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:11 pm At what point in the video? I'm having trouble spotting that. All I see is signs for buses to stay in the tram lanes. There would have to be some sort of traffic light control. The average Australian motorist would simply plough into the side of a bus trying to move left into the same lane otherwise.
At 2:22, you can see just before the light rail stop coming from juniors Kingsford and at 5.00 you can see the broken lines(I.e you can change lanes) continue part way thru the Kingsford light rail stop
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tbohlsennswssrg »

Tess1988 wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:17 am In the following video you can see just before the Kingsford light rail stop you can see broken white lines where buses are able to change from the light rail/ bus lane to the normal traffic lane

Also would Cars have to give way to the bus, I don’t really know the NSW laws but notice they have then give way to bus but the sign has a right arrow and the bus would be turning into the left lane

https://youtu.be/DYwQ_NUxKJ0
Road Rules 2014 NSW

77 Giving way to buses

(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if—

(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay, and

(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating, and

(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.

87 Giving way when moving from a side of a road or a median strip parking area

(1) A driver entering a marked lane, or a line of traffic, from the far left or right side of a road must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic.

Note 1.
Line of traffic and marked lane are defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2.
For subrule (1), give way means—

(a) if the driver is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed, or

(b) in any other case—slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision,

(2) However, the driver of a public bus does not have to give way to a vehicle if—

(a) the driver of the vehicle is required to give way to the bus under rule 77, and

(b) it is safe for the bus to enter the lane or line of traffic in which the vehicle is driving.

Note 1.
Public bus is defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2.
The bus must display a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus must be operating—see rule 77.
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swtt
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

tonyp wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:11 pm At what point in the video? I'm having trouble spotting that. All I see is signs for buses to stay in the tram lanes. There would have to be some sort of traffic light control. The average Australian motorist would simply plough into the side of a bus trying to move left into the same lane otherwise.
What sort of bus would continue on the light rail line and not merge back into general traffic lanes? Express buses would catch up to the light rail vehicles any time.

Or did the NSW Government actually build a hybrid LR + T-way?
Last edited by swtt on Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

swtt wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:56 pm
Or did the NSW Government actually built a hybrid LR + T-way?
That's what it is in parts, notably the Kingsford branch. It was designed to a theory. Now that practice has revealed itself, buses need to bail the hell out of it.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

tbohlsennswssrg wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:46 pm


Road Rules 2014 NSW

77 Giving way to buses

(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if—

(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road, on a shoulder of the road, or in a bus-stop bay, and

(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating, and

(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.

87 Giving way when moving from a side of a road or a median strip parking area

(1) A driver entering a marked lane, or a line of traffic, from the far left or right side of a road must give way to any vehicle travelling in the lane or line of traffic.

Note 1.
Line of traffic and marked lane are defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2.
For subrule (1), give way means—

(a) if the driver is stopped—remain stationary until it is safe to proceed, or

(b) in any other case—slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision,

(2) However, the driver of a public bus does not have to give way to a vehicle if—

(a) the driver of the vehicle is required to give way to the bus under rule 77, and

(b) it is safe for the bus to enter the lane or line of traffic in which the vehicle is driving.

Note 1.
Public bus is defined in the Dictionary.
Note 2.
The bus must display a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus must be operating—see rule 77.
Have you seen some of the people in a Service NSW centre? They look like they couldn't or wouldn't digest all that. Unless the rule is enforced in any way (which it isn't) the mass ignorance will continue just as it does with roundabouts as opposed to intersections.
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Tess1988
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Tess1988 »

swtt wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:56 pm Or did the NSW Government actually build a hybrid LR + T-way?
Yes, the idea being express buses would use the hybrid LR + T-way, no one knows the plans but that’s the everyone’s guess

Looking at non express buses it looks like the light rail takes the same amount of time
Example 1 from 50-52 Anzac Pde, Kensington which is just a minute walk from the first bus stop alone the L3 line heading towards juniors Kingsford on Anzac Parade both the light rail and the 392 bus at 9pm Friday night takes 12 minutes

https://transportnsw.info/trip#/trip?fr ... cTransport

Another example is in peak hour the 400 bus leaves Bondi junction at 5:12pm(finished work at Bondi junction then home to juniors Kingsford for example)
The bus arrives at UNSW, Anzac Pde, Kensington at 5.38pm, then Juniors Kingsford Light Rail, Stand B, Kingsford at 5.42pm
There are no stops between and it takes 4 minutes

Compare with the L3 light rail which also is timetabled at 4 minutes but has 1 stop in between unlike the bus, I carnt find information on how long a express bus would take because as far as I know they don’t stop so I carnt compare the timetable

Bus looking at non express buses and light rail they take the same amount of time
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

The buses should use the lr stops then they won't have to kneel and passengers will have to step down as they enter the bus. Might catch people off guard though.
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Cazza
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

There's a stop like that in Melbourne

https://youtu.be/GJajor75BQg
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

Cazza wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:33 pm There's a stop like that in Melbourne

https://youtu.be/GJajor75BQg
It would be interesting to know whether they can use the wheelchair ramp on those platforms. Looking at the lady wheeling the pram out the door, it seems a very close thing. The problem is that the ramp mightn't sit flush on the platform. At the same time, the horizontal and vertical gap may not be compliant for a wheelchair to run straight on and off without a ramp. I wonder if they've studied that detail.

The other issue is that it asks a lot of the driving skills of bus drivers. The bus has to be very close and parallel and I note there's no Kassel-type kerb fitted to that Melbourne platform to prevent impact with the platform. It's a widespread practice in Europe and the bus drivers are very skilled at it, but often the platforms are only normal kerb height, so there's not such an issue. It requires very precise driving to get all doors tightly alongside, especially on an artic. I think TfNSW and the unions would not come at the idea here - too radical.

In any case, the issue on CSELR is that the trams are so slow they would hold up the buses, so unfortunately the buses will need to continue to use the road lanes. The theory went out the window when the reality of the tram operation revealed itself. Express buses would certainly be slowed down. I think they should now look at bus priority lights and lanes in the general traffic lanes, although they could still be going ahead with the bus route cutbacks. Marjorie O'Neill is still concerned enough about it to address it in Parliament yesterday.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by hornetfig »

Also island platforms except for UNSW High Street
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

These are a couple of views of the northbound exit from Juniors.

Buses can go straight ahead into the tram tracks, but a substantial dog-leg is required to get around the island containing the traffic signal. I doubt this could be done safely without a dedicated B light giving priority. There is no signal provision for buses to turn left to Gardeners Rd; is that no longer happening?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

As Tess1988 has already suggested, it's obvious that the buses can't escape the tramway at Nineways and they're held in it by a berm (and another divider in the middle) until Borrodale Rd intersection, after which the berm is replaced by a painted dashed line that extends all the way to the head of the Kingsford stop where the dividing berm commences again. This would give buses ample opportunity to use the left indicator and move from the tramway to the next lane. The one casualty in this is that the bus stop before Borrodale would no longer be able to be used.

Heading south, the break in the berm appears to be at Strachan St, just north of the Kingsford stop. The Borrodale intersection is another and last opportunity for a bus to enter the tramway before the interchange. Looking through Streetview I see no sign of those micromanagement bus/tram lights you see on Alison Rd to stop trams and buses from driving into each other on a merge. Drivers might actually be trusted to use their eyes and mirrors like they do on any other bus/tram interaction anywhere else in the world. Nanny must have fallen asleep on this part of the job.

As in the other direction, the southbound bus stop outside Blooms would not be able to be accessed.

There is a four-light signal at the northern end of the interchange which may be a bus-tram merge signal - i.e. a red and green T at the top and a red and green B at the bottom. Has anybody seen the signal in operation?

The odd thing in all this is that, if they are intending to terminate buses at the interchange, there is absolutely nowhere for buses to easily turn around and head back south (e.g. a roundabout). What were they thinking?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

Maybe it's a terminate at Kingsford southbound, "shunt forward" towards Maroubra and turn around via side streets crossing Anzac Pde! :P
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

swtt wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:48 pm Maybe it's a terminate at Kingsford southbound, "shunt forward" towards Maroubra and turn around via side streets crossing Anzac Pde! :P
But the buses are coming from the south and heading back south, not coming from the north. Around a block may be a possibility somewhere but they'll be pretty long, time-consuming blocks. They should stop giving these design jobs to first year out trainees.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by swtt »

Turn around like this?

Image
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:29 pm There is a four-light signal at the northern end of the interchange which may be a bus-tram merge signal - i.e. a red and green T at the top and a red and green B at the bottom. Has anybody seen the signal in operation?
I watched this today when I took the other pictures
DSC04860 (Small).jpeg
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The white B light comes on whenever northbound road traffic gets the green light.
The white T light comes on if a tram "requests" it when northbound traffic gets the green light, but the B light stays red until the tram clears the intersection.

In this example, the tram subsequently had to stop for several seconds at a red light at the pedestrian crossing located just at the rear of the incoming tram.

There are several "tram only" signs where it is quite obvious that buses will also enter. The road markings show "Bus and tram only".
Last edited by boronia on Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Did you use your phone for those pictures?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:56 pm
swtt wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:48 pm Maybe it's a terminate at Kingsford southbound, "shunt forward" towards Maroubra and turn around via side streets crossing Anzac Pde! :P
But the buses are coming from the south and heading back south, not coming from the north. Around a block may be a possibility somewhere but they'll be pretty long, time-consuming blocks. They should stop giving these design jobs to first year out trainees.
Hasn't it been mentioned recently that there won't be any northbound terminating services? Looking at the leaked details, all surviving services continue to elsewhere?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Swift wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:46 pm Did you use your phone for those pictures?
No. They were taken into the afternoon sun, and resizing them to get them uploaded fuzzed them up a bit more..

They are for illustrative purposes only, not to win awards.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

This is the southern end of the interchange. The bus exit lane merges into the traffic after a short distance.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:53 pm
Swift wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:46 pm Did you use your phone for those pictures?
No. They were taken into the afternoon sun, and resizing them to get them uploaded fuzzed them up a bit more..

They are for illustrative purposes only, not to win awards.
No they are fine. I'm just wondering if everybody just pulls our their phone like I do, but I recall you mentioned you carry a purpose made camera everywhere as it's compact enough to be convenient in your pocket.
My phone now takes nice enough pictures, but lack of optical zoom is a shortcoming.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

swtt wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:15 pm Turn around like this?
The buses wouldn't be able to leave the tramway to turn left at Borrodale. This turn would have to be at Strachan, then Houston, coming back into Anzac at Barker St. Those back street residents would just love all those buses roaring down their streets and around the corners.
boronia wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:51 pm
Hasn't it been mentioned recently that there won't be any northbound terminating services? Looking at the leaked details, all surviving services continue to elsewhere?
That's the $64 question at the moment. The original concept of the project was that there would be no buses north of Kingsford, then it slipped to letting express buses to the northern CBD go through. Now all buses continue through until a decision is made.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by grog »

The EIS had buses from the south continuing until at least UNSW before terminating.
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