New Sydney and Outer Metro bus contracts (as from 2020)

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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rogf24
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by rogf24 »

After the light rail travel time disaster, I don't think Transdev should get the contract for the new regions. If there are any co-ordination problems, the government should take up a stronger position in that role rather than hand it over like KD.
Linto63
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Linto63 »

rogf24 wrote:After the light rail travel time disaster, I don't think Transdev should get the contract for the new regions.
As has previously been discussed elsewhere, Transdev are seemingly fulfilling their light rail contract obligations, so that won't be getting them blacklisted.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by tonyp »

rogf24 wrote:After the light rail travel time disaster, I don't think Transdev should get the contract for the new regions. If there are any co-ordination problems, the government should take up a stronger position in that role rather than hand it over like KD.
Different Transdev companies run their buses and trams. I would be judging their bus operation performance by their other bus operations, not by their tram operations.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote:Different Transdev companies run their buses and trams.
Technically yes they are seperate legal entities, but with the same parent. If TfNSW were to terminate its Sydney Ferries contract for poor performance, then its cards would be marked for any other future contracts, even if in a different field.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Transdev will keep their 3 regions with a possible addition of region 9. I got a tip off from someone that I work with that knows some of the drivers at Interline that Interline might be making a bid for region 3
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

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No confirmation as far as I know that Transdev will retain their 3 regions.
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Linto63
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Linto63 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:Transdev will keep their 3 regions with a possible addition of region 9. I got a tip off from someone that I work with that knows some of the drivers at Interline that Interline might be making a bid for region 3
Know a bloke who heard something in a pub stuff....bit hard for a winner to be known if the race hasn't been run.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote:
Campbelltown busboy wrote:Transdev will keep their 3 regions with a possible addition of region 9. I got a tip off from someone that I work with that knows some of the drivers at Interline that Interline might be making a bid for region 3
Know a bloke who heard something in a pub stuff....bit hard for a winner to be known if the race hasn't been run.
The person that told me about Interline bidding for region 3 is the same person that has been calling me Busabout thief as a joke since June 2014 just because I live in the region 15 service operation area
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

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So what does that prove?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Fleet Lists wrote:So what does that prove?
That some people don't get how the bus contract tendering process work
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

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That makes no sense either.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by boronia »

We can all guess who might be bidding (and speculate for what), but all we can do now is wait for the results.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by matthewg »

Doesn't really matter at the end of the day who wins the contracts anyway. All it changes the logo on the drivers uniform and on the depot plate on the bus.
It's the same drivers driving the same buses on the same roads in the same traffic, from the same depots with the same shed staff and the same operations managers, running the same routes to specifications and times set by TfNSW.
The depot manager just MIGHT get a new boss, but little else changes. Certainly nothing from the passenger's point of view.

Ohh they might just send everyone off for 'team-building' training to indoctrinate them in the 'new way'. So everyone gets a paid day off and provided lunch in return for enduring presentation hell and some silly 'trust-building' exercises.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by tonyp »

matthewg wrote:Doesn't really matter at the end of the day who wins the contracts anyway. All it changes the logo on the drivers uniform and on the depot plate on the bus.
It's the same drivers driving the same buses on the same roads in the same traffic, from the same depots with the same shed staff and the same operations managers, running the same routes to specifications and times set by TfNSW.
The depot manager just MIGHT get a new boss, but little else changes. Certainly nothing from the passenger's point of view.

Ohh they might just send everyone off for 'team-building' training to indoctrinate them in the 'new way'. So everyone gets a paid day off and provided lunch in return for enduring presentation hell and some silly 'trust-building' exercises.
That's very facile. There's a lot more to it, including greater efficiencies and better customer relations.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Linto63 »

It's an ideological battle, privatisation tends not to deliver all the benefits that its proponents claim it will, nor is it the end of the world that it's opponents claim. One of the primary reasons given for privatising region 6 was its punctuality.

Yet in the 12 months to February, Transit Systems only met its punctuality target on 2 occasions, vs 7, 10 and 5 respectively for State Transit operated regions 7-9. Unless inroads have been made into the cost base, 18 months into the contract, privatisation doesn't appear to have delivered many benefits.

As a semi-regular user, my opinion would be that the service is neither better or worse than when under State Transit control
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote:It's an ideological battle, privatisation tends not to deliver all the benefits that its proponents claim it will, nor is it the end of the world that it's opponents claim. One of the primary reasons given for privatising region 6 was its punctuality.

Yet in the 12 months to February, Transit Systems only met its punctuality target on 2 occasions, vs 7, 10 and 5 respectively for State Transit operated regions 7-9. Unless inroads have been made into the cost base, 18 months into the contract, privatisation doesn't appear to have delivered many benefits.

As a semi-regular user, my opinion would be that the service is neither better or worse than when under State Transit control
The tendering method that Transport For NSW uses to issue bus service contracts is the right method it's better then the review and negotiation method
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Off The Rails »

And this claim of "the right method" is based off what?

Obviously, as someone not from Sydney (and has only spent 4 days there, mainly riding STA buses), I'm not entirely understanding of the issue the unions have over privatisation - based off my knowledge of the Perth method, Perth and (from what I can gather) Sydney seem to be approaching the same model, where each region/contract is operated by a company, with a government overview on pricing, timetabling and the like. The only noticeable difference is that Sydney operators can purchase vehicles, while Perth has the fleet ordered by the government and given out to operators. Is this correct?

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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

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Sydney operators since 2007 get their vehicles leased through Transport for NSW although they can choose their vehicles from a Transport for NSW approved vehicle list.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Fleet Lists wrote:Sydney operators since 2007 get their vehicles leased through Transport for NSW although they can choose their vehicles from a Transport for NSW approved vehicle list.
If it's since 2007 for the Transport For NSW bus leasing then why did Busabout handover 5 Volvo B12BLE Bustech VSTs with body dates 11/05 (m/o 9064 m/o 9065 m/o 9066) and 5/06 (m/o 9067 m/o 9068) to Interline when Interline tookover region 2 when they where delivered new to Busabout in 2006
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Fleet Lists »

It may have started earlier in some regions.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by boronia »

Off The Rails wrote:And this claim of "the right method" is based off what?

Obviously, as someone not from Sydney (and has only spent 4 days there, mainly riding STA buses), I'm not entirely
Cheers! :wink:
STA drivers come under the RTBU, most of the private operators are covered by the TWU.

Although drivers who transfer over can retain their RTBU membership, there will be an erosion of its membership over time as STA drivers leave the industry, replaced by TWU members.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by tonyp »

This is a very good overview of bus privatisation in Australia:

https://www.ttf.org.au/wp-content/uploa ... t-2016.pdf

Here is another abstract from a conference paper (you have to pay to get the full paper):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5914000729

Overall the results are in favour of operational contracting, but there are different degrees of best practice in Australia, with WA and SA in the lead and NSW well on the way. It needs to be borne in mind as a fundamental issue that State Transit and its predecessors have failed to grow patronage since the trams were abandoned (indeed lost patronage pursuant to that) and that has become a rapidly growing problem as population has boomed in the last three decades. Privatisation does offer the potential, not only for cost savings and improvements in service quality and delivery, but for developing patronage.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote:It needs to be borne in mind as a fundamental issue that State Transit and its predecessors have failed to grow patronage since the trams were abandoned.
And what percentage of households had a car in 1961, compared to the 2.something cars per household it is today? Public transport demand nosedived when cars became affordable to the masses in the 1960s and since then driving has only become cheaper, toll roads aside.
tonyp wrote:Privatisation does offer the potential, not only for cost savings and improvements in service quality and delivery, but for developing patronage.
Any organisation can by develop patronage by adding or amending services, there isn't a silver bullet that only the private sector knows about. Sure a bit of institutionalisation will creep into a government department, as happens in any organisation where there isn't a turnover of management, but that just needs a bit of leadership from the top.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote:It needs to be borne in mind as a fundamental issue that State Transit and its predecessors have failed to grow patronage since the trams were abandoned.
The DGT was bleeding passengers long before the tramway abandonment. How many of the inner suburbs that were the original backbone of patronage had become "slums" by the 1950s as people moved away from the city?
.
tonyp wrote:Privatisation does offer the potential, not only for cost savings and improvements in service quality and delivery, but for developing patronage.
There might be "potential" but is it actually occurring? The SLR seems to be a good reference point.
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tonyp
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 20

Post by tonyp »

The DGT et seq failed to gain patronage in a region that tended to rely on public transport more and cars less, whereas the privates have grown patronage in regions of heavy car use/ownership. Also, those inner suburbs revived and underwent significant population growth post 1960s.

The light rail is an excellent example because, even though there are operational deficiencies, one thing it has achieved is substantial patronage growth.
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