New Sydney and Outer Metro bus contracts (as from 2020)

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

Another local reaction to the prospect of losing a long-term traditional operator, a risk, I guess in the tendering system.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... 379d3b7d4b

Future of Red Bus Service in doubt as tender open for Central Coast contract

A petition has been launched to save the Red Bus Service, which has operated on the coast for 80 years, as the contract for the Central Coast bus service is put out to tender.
Fiona Killman
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September 9, 2021 - 2:10PM
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dailytelegraph.com.au5:37

Red Bus Service drivers are rallying to save the iconic Central Coast bus service.

The future of the service is in doubt, with Transport for NSW (TfNSW) putting the Region 7 contract, covering The Entrance, Gosford and Wyong areas, out to tender.

Local drivers are fighting to save the service which has been operating across the region for the past 80 years, launching a petition for the State Government to “Save Red Bus Service” which now has more than 3400 signatures.

“We the bus drivers are sticking up for Red Bus,” long serving Red Bus Service driver David Malcolm told the Express.
The Red Bus Service has operated on the coast for 80 years. Picture: Facebook

“If they put it out to tender, anyone can go for it. A big company will undercut everything and Red Bus Service will be finished.”

Mr Malcolm said the Shore family had run Red Bus Service since 1940, starting with just five buses. The service, based at Bateau Bay, has grown to a fleet of 103 buses and staff of 160.

“The people that own Red Bus have done a fantastic job with this company,” Mr Malcolm said.

“The culture and the way they treat staff is phenomenal, it’s second to none. They employ locally, buy locally and donate to charities. They have been running longer than the Australian Reptile Park.”
Red Bus Service also has a safety bus which educates children about bus safety.

He said when a school student missed their stop or gets on the wrong bus, Red Bus have a light van that picks up the child and either returns them home or to the depot.

Mr Malcolm said Red Bus would be lodging a submission for the tender. Red Bus management declined to comment on the process at this stage.

“They just want to continue servicing the local area,” Mr Malcolm said. “The community is behind us, they are saying ‘enough is enough’.”

A Transport for NSW (TfNSW) spokesman said TfNSW “routinely tests and assesses the market to ensure we deliver the best possible transport service and value for customers”.
Santa posing on The Entrance to Wyong run.

“We are currently making preparations for market testing for Region 7 bus services which operate on the Central Coast,” he said.

“Factors we are considering include customer comfort and safety, innovation skills, value and sustainability. All operators including existing service providers are invited and encouraged to be part of this process.”

The spokesman said TfNSW will work with the successful operator to support local jobs.

“Transport for NSW assures customers that service continuity will remain a priority.”

The Express understands that TfNSW has nine regions in Greater Sydney with contracts coming up for renewal every few years. TfNSW usually meet with existing contractors which present service packages, however on occasions there can be discrepancies which result in the contract going out for tender.

An announcement on the outcome of the tender process is expected in 2022. See the petition here.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

I heard a rumour from a usually reliable source, going back to 4 August that both regions 6 (Busways) and 7 would be put up for tender. At least this appears to confirm region 7.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

I caught one from Erina Fair to Gosford a few years ago and was struck by the warm friendly and helpful nature of the driver. That will go overnight if they award it to one of the bus empires.
This is not Sydney, they have done a stirling job with their modern fleet and it would be tragic to see that icon disappear.
I've been riding their services since 1983 and have awesome memories of that fascinating operation.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:39 pm I caught one from Erina Fair to Gosford a few years ago and was struck by the warm friendly and helpful nature of the driver. That will go overnight if they award it to one of the bus empires.
This is not Sydney, they have done a stirling job with their modern fleet and it would be tragic to see that icon disappear.
I've been riding their services since 1983 and have awesome memories of that fascinating operation.
The government is making Transport For NSW go down this contract tender path where operators need to bid for the tender for a contract witch makes friendly drivers into gumps because they don’t like the management that their new employer has put in place and with the way the contracts are it sounds like whoever wins the OSMBSC region 7 contract will receive a lot of drivers from Red Bus if they are not successful with regaining the contract
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by marcnut1996 »

Searching on Tenders NSW (https://www.tenders.nsw.gov.au/?keyword ... Descending) shows that OMBSC 1-4, 8, 9, 11 and 12 have contracts renewed to 2028. There's nothing for region 10, did region 10 got merged into region 9?

Other relevant url:
https://www.tenders.nsw.gov.au/?event=p ... E9A07D3287
https://infrastructurepipeline.org/proj ... tracts-nsw
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

That raises the question about the mixed routes 78, 80, 91 and 98 which are partially operated by Busways and Hunter Valley Buses (Coastal Liner). I would not have expected this to continue if either region went up for tender. But the Transport Info timetables still show these routes as operated by Busways and Hunter Valley Buses.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:24 pm The government is making Transport For NSW go down this contract tender path where operators need to bid for the tender for a contract witch makes friendly drivers into gumps because they don’t like the management that their new employer has put in place and with the way the contracts are it sounds like whoever wins the OSMBSC region 7 contract will receive a lot of drivers from Red Bus if they are not successful with regaining the contract
You've just made me realise the demeanor of the drivers are a good indication of what the company/organisation/depot is like to work for.
This has rung true all my life.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by stupid_girl »

tonyp wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:57 am Another local reaction to the prospect of losing a long-term traditional operator, a risk, I guess in the tendering system.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... 379d3b7d4b

Future of Red Bus Service in doubt as tender open for Central Coast contract

A petition has been launched to save the Red Bus Service, which has operated on the coast for 80 years, as the contract for the Central Coast bus service is put out to tender.
Fiona Killman
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2 min read
September 9, 2021 - 2:10PM
Central Coast Express Advocate
0 comments

dailytelegraph.com.au5:37

Red Bus Service drivers are rallying to save the iconic Central Coast bus service.

The future of the service is in doubt, with Transport for NSW (TfNSW) putting the Region 7 contract, covering The Entrance, Gosford and Wyong areas, out to tender.

Local drivers are fighting to save the service which has been operating across the region for the past 80 years, launching a petition for the State Government to “Save Red Bus Service” which now has more than 3400 signatures.

“We the bus drivers are sticking up for Red Bus,” long serving Red Bus Service driver David Malcolm told the Express.
The Red Bus Service has operated on the coast for 80 years. Picture: Facebook

“If they put it out to tender, anyone can go for it. A big company will undercut everything and Red Bus Service will be finished.”

Mr Malcolm said the Shore family had run Red Bus Service since 1940, starting with just five buses. The service, based at Bateau Bay, has grown to a fleet of 103 buses and staff of 160.

“The people that own Red Bus have done a fantastic job with this company,” Mr Malcolm said.

“The culture and the way they treat staff is phenomenal, it’s second to none. They employ locally, buy locally and donate to charities. They have been running longer than the Australian Reptile Park.”
Red Bus Service also has a safety bus which educates children about bus safety.

He said when a school student missed their stop or gets on the wrong bus, Red Bus have a light van that picks up the child and either returns them home or to the depot.

Mr Malcolm said Red Bus would be lodging a submission for the tender. Red Bus management declined to comment on the process at this stage.

“They just want to continue servicing the local area,” Mr Malcolm said. “The community is behind us, they are saying ‘enough is enough’.”

A Transport for NSW (TfNSW) spokesman said TfNSW “routinely tests and assesses the market to ensure we deliver the best possible transport service and value for customers”.
Santa posing on The Entrance to Wyong run.

“We are currently making preparations for market testing for Region 7 bus services which operate on the Central Coast,” he said.

“Factors we are considering include customer comfort and safety, innovation skills, value and sustainability. All operators including existing service providers are invited and encouraged to be part of this process.”

The spokesman said TfNSW will work with the successful operator to support local jobs.

“Transport for NSW assures customers that service continuity will remain a priority.”

The Express understands that TfNSW has nine regions in Greater Sydney with contracts coming up for renewal every few years. TfNSW usually meet with existing contractors which present service packages, however on occasions there can be discrepancies which result in the contract going out for tender.

An announcement on the outcome of the tender process is expected in 2022. See the petition here.
If my understanding is correct, Red Bus management declined to comment on the process after failing a direct negotiation with TfNSW. I have doubt whether Red Bus is keen to retain the contract. In this case, a petition by a bus driver is probably useless.
tonyp
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

stupid_girl wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:44 pm
If my understanding is correct, Red Bus management declined to comment on the process after failing a direct negotiation with TfNSW. I have doubt whether Red Bus is keen to retain the contract. In this case, a petition by a bus driver is probably useless.
So the Slomans are finally calling it a day after all these years?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

I dont think that is for sure at this stage. But it would not surprise me if they dont want to go through the tendering process. We will have to wait and see.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Centralian »

I remember a few years ago in one of the bus transportation magazines (possible ABC) and article on Red Bus with management interviews, included a comment by management that business is always for sale at the right price.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

This won't get them a sale though. If Red Bus don't retain the contract then the TfNSW assets, i.e. the services and post 2005 buses will move to the new operator, and Red Bus will be left with the older buses and depot which it might negotiate to sell or lease to the new operator, or retain for use as a scaled down charter operator.

Much like happened when the Sydney regions were established in the mid-2000s, where there was an offer, most took it up, but some like Harris Park Transport didn't and handed in the keys. Appears the same happened here with most accepting, but Busways and Red Bus feeling the deal offered unsatisfactory.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Hearing the news that another family bus operator going possibly to the big guys is not good news, I've always liked seeing Red Bus when I've gone down to the Central Coast and I've found plenty of their drivers friendly to us enthusiasts & happy for photos to be taken of their fleet. If this is definitely going to turn out how I believe it will, it most definitely is going to be gloomy day when the day does come and their calling it an end with the majority of their fleet transferring to the new operator. If Linto is right I'd imagine it'll turn out like Oliveri in Sydney who still retained some buses but overtime has gradually withdrawn them and will fade into obscurity. Red bus will possibly go down the same path and that name will be in the history books & memories of many of us but alas no more physically & visually.

I'm now hoping to make it back down to the Central Coast after lockdown & restrictions ease, I would hate for my last trip which I took up to Gosford in April of this year to have unknowingly be the last time I'll see Red Bus Services as it is.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by marcnut1996 »

With the new Region 8 contract starting only a few weeks away, which routes will be taken over by Keolis Downer?
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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This may not be the sort of answer you are looking for but I believe it is all routes with timetables with code 28 in the timetable name
https://transportnsw.info/documents/timetables/28-190X-Avalon-Beach-to-City-Wynyard-Express-Service-20210712.pdf
This seems to have changed recently as last year that region had code 17 so maybe that is already part of the change.
It was also changed for region 6 when Transit Systems took over from 15 to 74.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

marcnut1996 wrote: With the new Region 8 contract starting only a few weeks away, which routes will be taken over by Keolis Downer?
All the routes currently operated out of North Sydney, Brookvale and Mona Vale depots. Broadly speaking that is all the 1xx series routes except 115, 120, 141, 155 and 193-197, and 2xx series routes that operate east of Neutral Bay junction, namely 225, 228, 229, 230, 238, 243, 246 and 263 (and possibly 269), and the B1.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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That is pretty right - but 269 carries code 26 in the timetable which is now region 7.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by robert »

I have the lists of routes in each region in about 2007, which were part of documentation issued to people attending the "community consultation" meetings ahead of the network reviews. 269 was then shown in region 7.

Curiously 201 was shown in both regions 7 and 8.
For information about private & Government bus routes in Sydney, look at http://www.sydneybusroutes.com
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Mr OC Benz »

This information can usually be found in the GTFS data (accessible from TfNSW's Open Data) by looking at the applicable prefix code under "route_id" (which is 28 as Fleet Lists mentions). The routes included in region 8 are 100, 111, 114, 137, 142, 144, 144N, 145, 150X, 154X, 155, 156, 160X, 161, 162, 165X, 166, 167, 168X, 170X, 171X, 172X, 173X, 174X, 176X, 177, 177X, 178, 179, 180, 180X, 181X, 182, 185, 190X, 191, 192, 199, 201, 225, 228, 229, 230, 238, 243, 246, 249, 263, B1 and BN1 (along with numerous school specials).
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

robert wrote: I have the lists of routes in each region in about 2007, which were part of documentation issued to people attending the "community consultation" meetings ahead of the network reviews. 269 was then shown in region 7.

Curiously 201 was shown in both regions 7 and 8.
Pre the allocating of each route to one region in December 2020, there were a number of routes operated by both region 7 and 8 depots, the 136 (now 160X) and 144 being examples. Presumably was the case with route 201 at the time.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Stu »

Linto63 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:41 pm Pre the allocating of each route to one region in December 2020, there were a number of routes operated by both region 7 and 8 depots, the 136 (now 160X) and 144 being examples. Presumably was the case with route 201 at the time.

This goes back to the STA route optimisation program initiated in 2013, the former route 136 & route 144 being Region 8 routes with some trips shared with Region 7.

Region 6 Tempe Depot used to assist Region 9 by operating some trips of the following routes: 301, 303, 305, 308, 309, 352 & 357. Eventually routes 305 & 308 became Region 6 routes. Tempe Depot also operated 6 x trips or Region 7 route 343.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Stu »

robert wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:41 pm I have the lists of routes in each region in about 2007, which were part of documentation issued to people attending the "community consultation" meetings ahead of the network reviews. 269 was then shown in region 7.

Curiously 201 was shown in both regions 7 and 8.
Prior to the drawing up of the current contract regions, Willoughby Depot used to be a part of the Northern Region with North Sydney, Brookvale & Mona Vale. There may have been a period of transition of route 201 from Region 7 Willoughby Depot over to Region 8 North Sydney Depot.

From STA route optimisation, R8 North Sydney operated 1 x trip for R7 route 269 and 1 x trip for R7 former route 257.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

It was ambiguous who M are aligned with for a long time. They were meant to be grouped with Y while still sharing routes with N and V. It's like they had a foot in two camps. I guess the privatisation by stealth will see to that once and for all.
Last edited by Swift on Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by robert »

Linto63 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:41 pm
robert wrote: I have the lists of routes in each region in about 2007, which were part of documentation issued to people attending the "community consultation" meetings ahead of the network reviews. 269 was then shown in region 7.

Curiously 201 was shown in both regions 7 and 8.
Pre the allocating of each route to one region in December 2020, there were a number of routes operated by both region 7 and 8 depots, the 136 (now 160X) and 144 being examples. Presumably was the case with route 201 at the time.
I suspect there is a difference between which depot/s operate/s a route (and how routes were "optimised") and which region any route belongs to. Data on boardings and kilometres run have been compiled by TfNSW on each region, including 6 to 9, ever since 2005. This could not have been done without knowing which routes were in which region. As mentioned above, I have lists of routes in each region, including 6 to 9, as at 2007. Also the routes in region 6 must have been known well before privatisation on 1 July 2018. The same would go for regions 7 and 8.

So I would suggest the allocation of STA routes to regions occurred well before 2020. Indeed, as the concept of regions arose from the Passenger Transport Amendment (Bus Reform) Act of 2004, routes may well have been allocated to regions in circa 2004/5.
For information about private & Government bus routes in Sydney, look at http://www.sydneybusroutes.com
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Linto63 »

Each route may have been allocated to one region, but in practice depots from multiple regions have operated routes, particularly since 2013 when the route optimisation scheme was introduced to try and reduce dead running. In the case of region 6, it wasn't until a few months after the region was taken over by Transit Systems that route 400 was split, both it and State Transit region 9 operating services from Burwood to Bondi Junction for a few months.

In the cases of regions 7 and 8, shared routes were allocated to one region shortly before tenders were called, giving a base specification for tenderers to bid against.

As to how TfNSW compiles its patronage and mileage data by region, it could be done a number of ways. In the case of the aforementioned route 400, it could have been done be including all trips as either region 6 or 9, or allocating to the region that each individual bus was allocated to, or determining it based on the boarding or alighting point.
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