New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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boronia
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

No, they will be the XPT/XPL replacements. And they will be dual mode diesel electric. Not sure if Endeavors are covered.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by moa999 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:Why weren’t these intercity trains built as battery electric trains then they could be used on Southern Highlands line Hunter line the non electrified section of the South Coast line and the Bathurst bullet west of Lithgow
Batteries would be way too heavy on a train for the distances required.
Long-haul rail is one of the few transport solutions where Hydrogen as a replacement might be applicable.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Fleet Lists »

boronia wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:44 pm No, they will be the XPT/XPL replacements. And they will be dual mode diesel electric. Not sure if Endeavors are covered.
Yes they are also intended to replace the Endeavours.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Scott4570 »

boronia wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:31 pm Apart from SCO, are there any U or D restrictions left now?
Currently, d and u stops still apply to the following Services.

Listed here is the Service and the Station for the 1st set-down stop (Down Journey) and the last pick-up stop (Up Journey).

Intercity:-
Bathurst Bullet: Katoomba.
Southern Line Endeavour service to/from Sydney via Tempe (Weekdays only): Macarthur for Down Journey, No restriction for Up Journey.

Country:-
Northern Line XPT and Xplorer services: Broadmeadow.
Dubbo XPT service: Lithgow.
Broken Hill Xplorer service: Bathurst.
Southern Line XPT services: Moss Vale.
Southern Line Xplorer services: Mittagong.

Historical:-
Cockatoo Run to Moss Vale via Unanderra service (if running): Summit Tank for Down Journey, Ranelagh House for Up Journey.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Thanks for this list.

I was thinking in terms of services to be operated by the NIFs, relative to the comment on the use of door buttons.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:40 pm Why weren’t these intercity trains built as battery electric trains then they could be used on Hunter line
The problem with the Hunter line is without some modifications first to the stations platform length I'm afraid the D-Set would not be able to operate at full capacity meaning It would have to be something like 2 or 4 cars only and the rest of the 6 cars don't get used at all unless Trainlink split them up to run as 4 Car services only.

Trust me I'm all for improvements here, while this isn't the topic to be discussing said improvements, I will say the Hunter line is way overdue for major modernisation and sooner or later they will have to act on upgrading all stations to meet demand and ensure all future rolling stock on the line is able to accommodate them.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Presumably the intention of getting divisible sets was so they could run them as independent 4 or 6 car consists.

I doubt there would be room for batteries unless they put them in the end compartments.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boxythingy »

Would it be unusual to have 5x5 cars? Imagine due to operational reasons, they may be forced to run a 4 car set instead of a 6 car set, better to have a service than none right?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by marcnut1996 »

Don''t think the government's press release regarding the NIF on Thursday were posted here.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/f ... city-fleet
First ride on New Intercity Fleet

Premier Gladys Berejiklian and Minister for Transport and Roads Andrew Constance today went for their first test ride on one of the next-generation fleet of intercity trains.

Premier Berejiklian says the New Intercity Fleet will offer unprecedented levels of comfort, convenience and reliability for passengers.

“These trains of the future are now one step closer with testing continuing and the first trains expected to enter service in the coming months,” Ms Berejiklian said.

“An important part of this new fleet was making sure we listen to what longer distance customers want.

“We’re also pleased to announce today that the state’s New Intercity Fleet is being named “Mariyung”, the Darug word for Emu, in acknowledgment of local Aboriginal culture, with the artwork for the train’s exterior designed by Darug woman, Leanne Mulgo Watson.”

Mr Constance said 12 trains in the Mariyung fleet are now in the final stages of testing all the mechanical, electrical and technology systems, and the interfaces with the rail network like overhead wiring, signalling and track infrastructure.

“The new fleet has advanced technology not available on existing intercity trains, including eight internal and four external CCTV cameras in every carriage. It also has on-board help points and significantly improved accessibility for commuters using wheelchairs, prams or with other mobility constraints,” Mr Constance said.

“The proposed operations model has been examined by an independent international expert, in two separate safety reviews, which found it will be safer than current practice and safer than other models currently used around the world.”

Minister for Regional Transport and Roads Paul Toole said rolling out 55 new 10-car trains to Lithgow, the Central Coast, Newcastle and South Coast built upon the NSW Government’s vision to help make public transport a first-choice option for people living in the regions.

“The naming of this new fleet brings us a step closer to rolling out these new services, which is an exciting development for the thousands of customers who travel between the city and these areas every day,” Mr Toole said.

“Boosts to our public transport offering like this show we’re committed to building a safer, stronger regional NSW.”

A date for the train to enter service will be determined once staff training and operational readiness activities have been completed in the coming months.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

An important part of this new fleet was making sure we listen to what longer distance customers want.
Obviously wasn't listening to comments about non-reversible seats
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

The feedback about fixed seating was made when the mock-up was displayed a few years ago, yet TfNSW has decided to stay the course. On the positive, it does allow for drop down tables. While some will be holding out for a retrofit of reversible seating as happened with the XPTs, wouldn't be placing too much faith in it.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by grog »

Surely the tray table is a valuable addition with the move to remote working - a 1.5 hour commute in from the Central Coast could become part of the work day if a company is flexible enough.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by moa999 »


Linto63 wrote: On the positive, it does allow for drop down tables.
And USB power..

I can't see it changing.. flippable seats don't really exist overseas either.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

So make the people who want to "work" on the train use the rear facing seats, and leave the forward facing seats for tourists who want to see where they are going. :idea: :idea:
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

moa999 wrote: I can't see it changing.. flippable seats don't really exist overseas either.
Nore in any other Australian cities.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

moa999 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:40 pm
Linto63 wrote: On the positive, it does allow for drop down tables.
And USB power..

I can't see it changing.. flippable seats don't really exist overseas either.
I've been in many trains in Japan and can't recall ever having to sit backwards. I believe most rotate, not flip over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k-gY7tUHv8
Would need a good seat pitch to do it
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

It was quite amusing to read this first post in the thread again, almost seven years since the announcements.
Daniel wrote: Thu May 08, 2014 8:22 am
Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack
RICK MORTON
THE AUSTRALIAN
MAY 08, 2014 12:00AM


THE NSW government will spend $2.8 billion on 65 inter-city trains, but will not commit to building them in Australia.

Transport Minister Gladys Berejiklian will announce the new fleet today, which will mean all Sydney trains will be air-conditioned.

Previously, NSW has developed unique and often costly train fleets from scratch, which has taken as long as seven years from start to delivery,” Ms Berejiklian will say. “We are looking at buying off-the-shelf trains with proven technology and then configuring them to meet our customers’ needs, meaning we can ensure the best value, best possible service and also have these new trains on the tracks faster.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... mm-premium
Interesting, on a number of fronts... More to come.
Last edited by boronia on Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Aurora »

boronia wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:10 pm It was quite amusing to read this first post in the thread again, almost seven years since the announcements.
Should have been in service last year, which was within that timeframe, but the union is holding it back.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

But only about 12 of the 65 sets delivered so far?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by jpp42 »

moa999 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:56 pm
Campbelltown busboy wrote:Why weren’t these intercity trains built as battery electric trains then they could be used on Southern Highlands line Hunter line the non electrified section of the South Coast line and the Bathurst bullet west of Lithgow
Batteries would be way too heavy on a train for the distances required.
Long-haul rail is one of the few transport solutions where Hydrogen as a replacement might be applicable.
Another approach is what Amtrak in the US is doing for their Empire Corridor (Hudson river line) - diesels with battery storage. Traditionally this line used dual-mode locos with the electric mode only active for a small portion in the tunnels leading from the West Side Line to Penn Station (using third-rail). The new design will be primarily diesel, with battery storage to cover these short areas in the terminal and eliminate the need for third-rail pickup shoes and the related equipment. I am not sure if there will be any charging arrangements in Penn Station or not, but these locos can run to the yards and charge on diesel from there if needed. But the point is that battery storage for heavy rail is becoming feasible.

In the NSW context, we would of course keep intercity routes as primarily electric. But I wonder if on-board energy storage could allow the catenary could be removed for certain sections, like Mt. Victoria to Lithgow (with recharge at Lithgow). Surely the maintenance costs for this section must be very high compared to the limited amount of electric-hauled passenger service. The same might apply north of Gosford or south of Wollongong?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

marcnut1996 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:11 pm Don''t think the government's press release regarding the NIF on Thursday were posted here.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/f ... city-fleet
First ride on New Intercity Fleet

Premier Gladys Berejiklian and Minister for Transport and Roads Andrew Constance today went for their first test ride on one of the next-generation fleet of intercity trains.

Premier Berejiklian says the New Intercity Fleet will offer unprecedented levels of comfort, convenience and reliability for passengers.

“These trains of the future are now one step closer with testing continuing and the first trains expected to enter service in the coming months,” Ms Berejiklian said.

“An important part of this new fleet was making sure we listen to what longer distance customers want.

“We’re also pleased to announce today that the state’s New Intercity Fleet is being named “Mariyung”, the Darug word for Emu, in acknowledgment of local Aboriginal culture, with the artwork for the train’s exterior designed by Darug woman, Leanne Mulgo Watson.”

Mr Constance said 12 trains in the Mariyung fleet are now in the final stages of testing all the mechanical, electrical and technology systems, and the interfaces with the rail network like overhead wiring, signalling and track infrastructure.

“The new fleet has advanced technology not available on existing intercity trains, including eight internal and four external CCTV cameras in every carriage. It also has on-board help points and significantly improved accessibility for commuters using wheelchairs, prams or with other mobility constraints,” Mr Constance said.

“The proposed operations model has been examined by an independent international expert, in two separate safety reviews, which found it will be safer than current practice and safer than other models currently used around the world.”

Minister for Regional Transport and Roads Paul Toole said rolling out 55 new 10-car trains to Lithgow, the Central Coast, Newcastle and South Coast built upon the NSW Government’s vision to help make public transport a first-choice option for people living in the regions.

“The naming of this new fleet brings us a step closer to rolling out these new services, which is an exciting development for the thousands of customers who travel between the city and these areas every day,” Mr Toole said.

“Boosts to our public transport offering like this show we’re committed to building a safer, stronger regional NSW.”

A date for the train to enter service will be determined once staff training and operational readiness activities have been completed in the coming months.
A bit worrying that in this press release Gladys says the train will enter service over the coming months. In the press conference last week, Constance said it would be the coming weeks. Which one is it?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Guess it depends on the significance of numbers. Is "8 weeks" more/less politically impressive than "2 months"?

I wonder if they won't enter regular service until there are enough of them to warrant a new WTT which would allow working to/from the KAMC.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Why weren’t these intercity trains built as battery electric trains then they could be used on Southern Highlands line Hunter line the non electrified section of the South Coast line and the Bathurst bullet west of Lithgow
Because there isn't really the level of demand. Aside from the fact that battery technology was very much in its infancy when the order was placed, batteries would take up a fair bit of space reducing capacity.
jpp42 wrote: But I wonder if on-board energy storage could allow the catenary could be removed for certain sections, like Mt. Victoria to Lithgow (with recharge at Lithgow).
Would need a lot of batteries to power the train up a fairly steeply graded section, and again would be at the expense of passenger space.
jpp42 wrote: The same might apply north of Gosford or south of Wollongong?
Given that the majority of trains on these lines continue beyond these two terminals, unlikely. The Short North wires will see more use with the XPT and Xplorer replacements to be bi-mode, and further down the track, if we are going to get serious about emissions, the reintroduction of electric locomotives by freight operators will have to be considered.
Jurassic_Joke wrote: A bit worrying that in this press release Gladys says the train will enter service over the coming months. In the press conference last week, Constance said it would be the coming weeks. Which one is it?
Is it really that big a deal? The current trains aren't imminent danger of falling apart. I'm sure they will enter service once all the hurdles have been cleared.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Aurora »

It won’t be anytime soon anyway. The unions have not indicated at all that they will sign this train off in its existing form.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by moa999 »


Linto63 wrote:Aside from the fact that battery technology was very much in its infancy when the order was placed, batteries would take up a fair bit of space
And still is.
Remember the batteries in the Newcastle and u/c Parramatta tram might be able to move the tram about 2km.
Technology just isn't there for fully battery electric long distance trains (would be too heavy and take too long too charge), and may never be.

It's actually one area where Hydrogen might be the solution (it's 3x lighter than diesel per kWh, and much lighter than batteries, but less dense than diesel). Hydrogen is not the solution for passenger vehicles however (despite efforts from lobbyists)

There are some trial hydrogen trains running around Europe (but on relatively short routes). So for now bi-mode electric/diesel for our regional rail will have to do.


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