New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

[matthewg]

There would be additional cost involved in isolating automated (driverless) operation from other adjoining rail services on the legacy network, which would make its implementation economically questionable, compared with the Level GoA2 with a driver monitoring the system, which in an operational sense gives the same benefits.

They don't have to be isolated. I've ridden on a GoA4 train, right up front that was following a GoA0 human-driven train - for much of the trip I could see the tail lights of the train ahead. As the line still had manually driven train sets it still had functioning line side signals, so I could clearly see the signal indications facing my auto-driver operated train.
Admittedly this was a transitional arrangement as it wasn't viable to replace 90+ train sets on the line all at once. So as each new fully automated train set was delivered, a manually driven train was taken out of service.

[Merc1107]

I think the 737MAX debacle shows us how easily automation can lead to tragedy if something is amiss, as do "race" incidents like what happened with the Thorac-25. In a perfect world, automation is vastly superior to humans. However, when we humans create the automation, it reflects our own shortcomings. In this modern world, everything is at risk of cyber attack, too. It would be naive to think someone isn't waiting to hijack fleets of autonomous vehicles for terrorism or war.

[tonyp]

I think the 737MAX debacle shows us how easily automation can lead to tragedy if something is amiss, as do "race" incidents like what happened with the Thorac-25. In a perfect world, automation is vastly superior to humans. However, when we humans create the automation, it reflects our own shortcomings. In this modern world, everything is at risk of cyber attack, too. It would be naive to think someone isn't waiting to hijack fleets of autonomous vehicles for terrorism or war.

The technology with trains is pretty mature. I think it's got quite a way to go before it's acceptable on any roads - e.g. the driver in USA recently who thought it was OK to sit in the back seat of his Tesla and let the car do the work, until it flew off the road into a tree by means of the good old laws of physics.

[moa999]

I think the 737MAX debacle shows us how easily automation can lead to tragedy if something is amiss, as do "race" incidents like what happened with the Thorac-25. In a perfect world, automation is vastly superior to humans. However, when we humans create the automation, it reflects our own shortcomings. In this modern world, everything is at risk of cyber attack, too. It would be naive to think someone isn't waiting to hijack fleets of autonomous vehicles for terrorism or war.

The technology with trains is pretty mature. I think it's got quite a way to go before it's acceptable on any roads - e.g. the driver in USA recently who thought it was OK to sit in the back seat of his Tesla and let the car do the work, until it flew off the road into a tree by means of the good old laws of physics.

Ignoring the fact that that vehicle didn't have a Full Self Drive subscription, and was on a single lane road without lane markings where TACC (traffic aware cruise control) wouldn't activate.

More likely the actual driver fled, or climbed into the backseat to try and get out..
And the fire was put out in 3-4min based on a statement from the fire brigade.. not hours, although they do stay onsite for hours as batteries can relight.

I think Sydney Metro proves driverless trains are a pretty mature tech, particularly on separated lines.

That said I more expect our existing lines will move to some form of London ATO, where a driver will remain in control in the outer sections, but the train will operate autonomously in the core, including platform screen doors.

But if South Coast trains move back to Central 12-14, you could see a possiblity of T4 going driverless.

[Linto63]

Either way, ATO isn't going to have an affect on the introduction of the rolling stock that is the subject of this article, that's decades into the future. The dispute will either be resolved by guards being retained in their present roles or becoming roving customer service agents for little or no drop in conditions. I doubt the government (nor passengers) have the stomach for a drawn out fight.

[2112Y]

The Mariyung fleet is one step forward ready for service as announced today:

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... afety-tick

Mariyung fleet receives final safety tick
Published30 Jul 2021
The new generation of intercity trains, the Mariyung Fleet, has received the final tick of approval to start carrying customers from the independent Office of the National Rail Safety Regulator.

Minister for Transport Andrew Constance said the independent safety accreditation confirms the new fleet’s unprecedented levels of safety, accessibility, comfort and convenience for customers.

“This is a really important milestone for the Mariyung fleet with the Office of the National Rail Safety Regulator endorsing the fact that the safety of these trains is world class, as is NSW TrainLink’s operating model. We already see similar operating models in place around the world,” Mr Constance said.

“These are modern trains with advanced technology not available on existing intercity trains. The doors are equipped with sensitive edges so they will automatically re-open if an object gets trapped, plus the train cannot physically move until all the doors are closed.”

Minister for Regional Transport Paul Toole said the state-of-the-art fleet will provide more reliable services for the thousands of customers who travel between Sydney and the Central Coast and Newcastle, the Blue Mountains, and the South Coast.

“The 55 10-car Mariyung fleet will replace the ageing V-Sets and will have two staff on every train – a driver and a guard, who instead of being confined in a cabin, will be able to move through the carriage and provide support to customers,” Mr Toole said.

“For some of our regional customers, it will be the first time a new electric train has travelled to stations like Lithgow in 30 years, so it’s exciting that this final tick of approval brings us a step closer to allowing them to climb aboard.”

The Office of the National Rail Safety Regulator independently administers the Rail Safety National Law, provides national safety regulation and enforces regulatory compliance.

Transport for NSW and NSW TrainLink are working through the final arrangements to bring the Mariyung fleet into service as soon as possible. There are currently 16 trains testing on the network, eight of which are ready to progressively enter customer service

[Transtopic]

But does this imply that the RTBU has come to a settlement on the role of the guards?

[boronia]

I can recall Constance making a statement some months ago that this issue had been sorted.

“The 55 10-car Mariyung fleet will replace the ageing V-Sets and will have two staff on every train – a driver and a guard, who instead of being confined in a cabin, will be able to move through the carriage and provide support to customers,” Mr Toole said.

They are able to move through the carriages now, but rarely do. I wonder what duties have been changed?

[Aurora]

But does this imply that the RTBU has come to a settlement on the role of the guards?

No, it is a game of brinkmanship.

[Swift]

I can recall Constance making a statement some months ago that this issue had been sorted.

“The 55 10-car Mariyung fleet will replace the ageing V-Sets and will have two staff on every train – a driver and a guard, who instead of being confined in a cabin, will be able to move through the carriage and provide support to customers,” Mr Toole said.

They are able to move through the carriages now, but rarely do. I wonder what duties have been changed?

That will be a hazardous job with the class of primate that frequent the services.
I hope they're allowed to carry a pepper spray canister.

[Transtopic]

But does this imply that the RTBU has come to a settlement on the role of the guards?

No, it is a game of brinkmanship.

Which appears to be supported by the news in the tail end in this piece in today's SMH.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/eme ... 58ehg.html

[Jurassic_Joke]

At the end of the day, the trains are here, our taxpayer money has been well spent on them and they aren’t going anywhere. As a taxpayer and a NSW voter, I say, get on with it.

The V Sets have had their best days and they’ve served NSW well, and believe me I will miss those seats, but they’re ageing, meaning they not only become less reliable, but maintenance also becomes gradually more expensive.

[Swift]

They kept red suburban sets that stop much more for over 60 years, they could have done a real job of refurbishing the V sets like London did to thoroughly modernise their older stock.
NSW just likes putting on flashy new stuff to gloat about it in the media. We are obsessed with flashy looking radical new styling when it's not really needed. New York doesn't see the need for that.

[boronia]

The main problem with the V sets is getting them to comply with DDA standards and modern passenger expectations.

It's a shame they couldn't do this without alienating the people who use them.

[Linto63]

The V sets were a great train in their day, probably one of the few world class trains Australia has produced, but they are now 32-44 years old. The normal economical life for EMUs is 30-40 years, so they're within that window. You can endlessly rebuild trains until the frame collapses, but there does come a point when is appropriate to call time. Aside from the DDA issue that takes effect in January 2023 and would require massive structural changes to address, they are a long way short in crashworthiness standards.

The D sets may not be everybody's cup of tea, but as Jurassic Joke said, they are here now, so we just have to hope that they are better than the Oscar sets which were really true intercity trains.

[tonyp]

The funny thing on their webpage about the new fleet, TfNSW even has the hutzpah to run a side by side comparison video of the two trains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxt8vjazop4

The Mariyung doesn't come up looking as good as they think. The fact that the V set has all seats facing the direction of travel and the fact that luggage has to be lugged up and down stairs rather than be kept at-level on the Mariyung vs the V set aren't mentioned. In fairness, the constraints on the design brief, not only those relating to accessibility but also the predetermined door positions, are crippling for the prospects of a good long-distance train design.

The V set, although lacking wheelchair access, has extensive at-level areas (constituting about 24-26 seats per car) that do address those with accessibility issues other than wheelchairs, including considerable at-level luggage areas (both at the floor and overhead). The at-level areas of subsequent double deck trains have gradually diminished (from about 16-20 seats on the original suburban sets, then progressively less) over the years to the point that they effectively blend in with the door vestibules which are a notorious area of congestion and crowding in a double deck train. So, in the Mariyong we're down to less than 10 at-level seats per car, some of which are dedicated to wheelchairs and the like. At-level luggage provision, other than on the floor, is non-existent and the whole end area floorspace will be fought over between those wanting to reside there and crowds getting in and out of the train.

The door positioning is basically an outcome of having to have a shared system, so there's not much that can be done about the constraints on the design. Consider ourselves lucky that we lived in the era of the V sets so that we can reminisce to the great grandkids about them! I hope one of the museums will continue to run one live.

[tbohlsennswssrg]

Any sizable suitcase will not fit in the overhead racks of a V set

[tonyp]

delete

[tonyp]

Any sizable suitcase will not fit in the overhead racks of a V set

I didn't suggest that. Obviously suitcases go in the floor-level racks, but the overhead racks are useful for other bags. The D sets have none of that.

[Linto63]

The fact that the V set has all seats facing the direction

On the positive, D sets have drop-down tables. Reversible seats are rare on new trains. The other states that operate services on similar length services (Queensland and Victoria) have only operated fixed seating trains for decades.

[boronia]

Many trains in Japan have rotating seats, so pax get the best of both worlds.

It will be interesting to see how long these drop down tables survive the feral population on these lines. Similar for the USB ports; I'll still bring my power bank.

Perhaps they could put a camera in the cab, with video screens in the saloons so rear facing pax can see where they are going.

[Swift]

The fact that the V set has all seats facing the direction

On the positive, D sets have drop-down tables. Reversible seats are rare on new trains. The other states that operate services on similar length services (Queensland and Victoria) have only operated fixed seating trains for decades.

Oh so after years of doing something better we should find it acceptable to emulate them now? That's crazy thinking.

Many trains in Japan have rotating seats, so pax get the best of both worlds.

It will be interesting to see how long these drop down tables survive the feral population on these lines. Similar for the USB ports; I'll still bring my power bank.

Perhaps they could put a camera in the cab, with video screens in the saloons so rear facing pax can see where they are going.

In Australia we can't have nice things. Did you know that I have seen old buses left by the side of the road in the USA without so much as a smashed window -out of the city mind you, but even so, that would never happen anywhere in Australia. It would get attacked in days.
The feral element here is downright subhuman here.

[Cazza]

It's funny you say that because I have American friends who say they feel so much more comfortable in Australia and travelling around a network than in America. You'll also find the media loves to blow the actions of that tiny minority. So it's a matter of who you ask. I'm not denying there are people out there that needed more parental support and even just a bit of love and attention as a child. But there will always be the lowest common denominator in society, it's just a matter of where you set that bar...

WRT the fleet, as much of a sentimental value the V sets hold, nothing lasts forever and it is time they make way for the future with faster, more modern travel. It's also a matter of the fact that NSW is actually investing into the rail network to improve services and travel. The light rail, Metro services, signalling and capacity upgrades, new trains, streamlining and improving bus networks etc.etc.etc. Up here in QLD, aside from the flawed and over politicised CRR, there really isn't anything happening in the transport front to improve rail or bus services. They are just setting us up for the biggest game of catch up with roads, roads, roads.

[tonyp]

Perhaps they could put a camera in the cab, with video screens in the saloons so rear facing pax can see where they are going.

They would also need a screen at the other end of the saloon with a rearward view for all those people who continually tell us that there's absolutely nothing wrong with riding backwards but who rush the forward-facing seats at stations anyway.

[Transtopic]

Perhaps the fixed seating is a reflection of the increasing number of Poms who seem to be running TfNSW. I can't believe that there isn't sufficient expertise within the bureaucracy with local knowledge who would be aware of the mistakes of the past. The government seems to be determined to purge the Transport portfolio of anything to do with past administrations.