New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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boronia
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:31 pm
boronia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:58 pm
Perhaps they could put a camera in the cab, with video screens in the saloons so rear facing pax can see where they are going.
They would also need a screen at the other end of the saloon with a rearward view for all those people who continually tell us that there's absolutely nothing wrong with riding backwards but who rush the forward-facing seats at stations anyway.
They can designate the forward section for tourists and the rearward section for commuters who've seen it all before,

I am becoming addicted to all these in-cab videos of trains around the world. I've seen parts of Japan I might never get to visit otherwise. I follow progress on a separate screen with Google maps satellite view, so I can stop the train anywhere I like and street-view around towns before moving on. It's most frustrating to actually be on a train and seeing some other tracks veering off into the distance and not know where they go.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

NIF D-Set running to Newcastle Interchange according to Anytrip, what is interesting is it says the train is max capacity?

Image

Of course currently in Lockdown (Due to ongoing restrictions) So I can't truly verify what the situation is.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Also says it is "Charter", and why change of status after Fassifern?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Aurora »

boronia wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:45 pm Also says it is "Charter", and why change of status after Fassifern?
I think that is just telling you how far through the trip the train is.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by swtt »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:18 pm NIF D-Set running to Newcastle Interchange according to Anytrip, what is interesting is it says the train is max capacity?

Image

Of course currently in Lockdown (Due to ongoing restrictions) So I can't truly verify what the situation is.
Are they testing it with the water containers inside the carriages?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

The Water Containers could actually be a good theory, previously when I've been fortunate enough to see the NIF D-Set on the Central - Newcastle testing run it has never had the water containers inside of it. With NSW Now being in lockdown and I doubt bringing a full load of people onto a train would be a great Idea this is probably what they've decidedly gone back to doing.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Randomness »

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... 3-1069.pdf
TOC Waiver – TW: 203-1069 - Allowing NIF Services to enter Revenue service. A service is showing up on AnyTrip showing a few cars (1, 5, 6, 10) at max capacity and heading to "charter".
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

Saw D112 at Woy Woy heading south bound at 7:20 pm last Friday. Not taking passengers and no water tanks visible.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Randomness »

From: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... afety-tick

“two staff on every train – a driver and a guard, who instead of being confined in a cabin, will be able to move through the carriage and provide support to customers”.

- Would this imply that they’ll still be performing platform duties? And if so I wonder if they’ll be obligated to do so.

“There are currently 16 trains testing on the network, eight of which are ready to progressively enter customer service.”

- 8 trains yet still none on revenue service currently.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

That statement is a little ambiguous, implying that the driver can also get up and walk around the train. The old brick on the throttle trick.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Swift »

Why would you do this to them? Has employee safety been discarded all of a sudden?
I can see this ending in grief when the guard has to intermingle with hooligans and various other scoundrels.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:28 pm That statement is a little ambiguous, implying that the driver can also get up and walk around the train. The old brick on the throttle trick.
I can't see any inference that the driver would be required to do so. Common sense dictates it wouldn't happen.

Guards have always had the ability to move through the train, I've seen it quite often although probably for operational purposes rather than passenger supervision. The previously proposed roving CSOs would probably have performed some platform duties like wheelchair ramps.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

56 additional cars have been ordered = 610 cars:
https://www.railexpress.com.au/100m-con ... cwozywfkI4
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

Presumably that will bring the fleet up to 60x10 car sets with 1x10 car spare.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

18-month delay to state’s new intercity trains arriving from South Korea

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/18- ... 595j6.html
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by jpp42 »

I see the SMH says the trains will be operated by "NSW TrainsLink" - that's a new take :)

Overall good news for V-set enthusiasts.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

I reckon by mid next year, we might be able to see the first D sets enter service when there is finally a negotiation between the union and The government. A possibility may be that the D sets will have a modification so that they operate like the Waratahs where I'm pretty sure they have the option to operate with Driver Only operation and it's not active yet (correct me if I'm wrong)
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by RayW »

G'day folks.

My post is going to be 'very' biased, since as a lad I was employed at Comeng where the V sets were made. They are possibly one of the best train sets this country has ever seen and will be hard to surpass.

The first complaint I have like so many others, is where they are made, just to save a buck.
I've seen them close at hand, the finish is lousy, the seats no better than on the current Oscars and as has been said earlier are fixed. So there'll be a bun fight on a crowded service to get into the 'right way facing' seats.

Secondly, it has been almost 2 years since the first delivery? I recall the first V set I worked on, was running about a month after trials.

My last complaint, is aimed at the Transport ministers we've had in the recent past and the current CEO of Sydney Trains; they had overseen the worst (in my opinion) changes to our network I've ever seen in my 70 years.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

RayW wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:16 am G'day folks.

My post is going to be 'very' biased, since as a lad I was employed at Comeng where the V sets were made. They are possibly one of the best train sets this country has ever seen and will be hard to surpass.

The first complaint I have like so many others, is where they are made, just to save a buck.
I've seen them close at hand, the finish is lousy, the seats no better than on the current Oscars and as has been said earlier are fixed. So there'll be a bun fight on a crowded service to get into the 'right way facing' seats.

Secondly, it has been almost 2 years since the first delivery? I recall the first V set I worked on, was running about a month after trials.

My last complaint, is aimed at the Transport ministers we've had in the recent past and the current CEO of Sydney Trains; they had overseen the worst (in my opinion) changes to our network I've ever seen in my 70 years.
Good on you RayW. The V sets were more than Australia's best, they were world leading in the interurban train market at the time. Their only eventual deficiency became meeting the DDA accessibility standards, but if they were built today, I'm sure that Comeng would have been able to address that with neat solutions.

I'm with your scepticism about the D sets. The seats look hard. Maybe they might be moulded a little to make them better than the Oscar benches, but we'll see. I'm glad I join the trains at Kiama. There's not too much of a bun rush there, just a little extra calculation to make sure you line up with the leading door on each carriage! At Central you'll need to arrive at the station very early!

The best thing about the V set is the extensive at-level seating (not having to climb stairs), with luggage racks all at-level too. The D sets have virtually no at-level seating and the luggage racks are down the lower stairs, which will be terrible with suitcases and stuff. Comeng designed the best trains. The current mob have lost the art.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by RayW »

tonyp wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:09 pm
Good on you RayW. The V sets were more than Australia's best, they were world leading in the interurban train market at the time. Their only eventual deficiency became meeting the DDA accessibility standards, but if they were built today, I'm sure that Comeng would have been able to address that with neat solutions.

I'm with your scepticism about the D sets. The seats look hard. Maybe they might be moulded a little to make them better than the Oscar benches, but we'll see. I'm glad I join the trains at Kiama. There's not too much of a bun rush there, just a little extra calculation to make sure you line up with the leading door on each carriage! At Central you'll need to arrive at the station very early!

The best thing about the V set is the extensive at-level seating (not having to climb stairs), with luggage racks all at-level too. The D sets have virtually no at-level seating and the luggage racks are down the lower stairs, which will be terrible with suitcases and stuff. Comeng designed the best trains. The current mob have lost the art.
Thanks for the reply Tony, I appreciate that. For my wife and I, being extensive train travelers on the weekends (and my weekly commute) we prefer comfort. Having said that, the Oscars we NOT built for comfort for more than a 30-40 minute trip, any longer than that it is a pain literally. We've traveled to both Kiama and Newcastle on them and by the time we got to our destinations it was painful. That is never an issue going west with the V's.

As for accessibility on the V's, that could have easily been addressed with a mid-life upgrade as they have done on several US city sets over the years and some of those (NY and Chicago in particular) are over 50 years old. They just keep rebuilding them, because like the V's, they're built on the Budd design in stainless and theoretically could last a 100 years.

Truly said, we've not had a decent design since the last of the Goninan sets.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Although they have SS bodies, IIRC the earlier V sets were withdrawn due to rusting of the steel underframes; I don't know if the later cars had this problem?

One of the problems with DDA is the need to provide complying toilets for wheelchair users. This may be difficult to retrofit into a V set trailer?
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by RayW »

boronia wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:38 pm Although they have SS bodies, IIRC the earlier V sets were withdrawn due to rusting of the steel underframes; I don't know if the later cars had this problem?

One of the problems with DDA is the need to provide complying toilets for wheelchair users. This may be difficult to retrofit into a V set trailer?
CityRail as it was called back then had been notified as much as five years earlier before the withdrawal that rust prevention was necessary. This was at the old Eveleigh yards and from the Comeng team that had taken residence in Melbourne. CityRail sat on their hands then scrapped what could have been more than what we have now. Most of those withdrawn serviced the Central to Newcastle service.

Despite my passion for the V sets, the non compliance of the toilets was a serious design flaw, even from the start. When my wife was pregnant with our first kids (twins) she couldn't use them. :roll:
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by ACM »

tonyp wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:22 am
I've actually read the original tender specification for the Oscars and it required "seats suitable for long distance travel". I would consider that the contract was breached in that regard, but the slackos in Transport overseeing the contract didn't pull the builder up on it.
I once spoke to an Engineer of Sydney Trains, who was involved in the Waratah project. I asked him about those TRULY rubbish seats, which are short back about as comfortable as sitting on a garbage bins. His answer was that, as the engineer, they were heavily constrained by a XXX ton of various design rules. Given that the OSCARs were built in compliance to similar rules, i'd consider them a great success, and put that type of seat in every train in Sydney.
One of the constraints were that the seats had to reverse. Perhaps that's why they just didn't bother with the NIF. They could have always put in the XPT-style rotating seats, but of cause, the travelling public can't have nice things any more, such as carpeted trains. For suburban stock, sure, lino is easier to clean, but I find it reminds me of being in a hospital. Carpet makes the train "feel" comfortable and homely, and probably helps reduce noise.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

ACM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:35 am
I once spoke to an Engineer of Sydney Trains, who was involved in the Waratah project. I asked him about those TRULY rubbish seats, which are short back about as comfortable as sitting on a garbage bins. His answer was that, as the engineer, they were heavily constrained by a XXX ton of various design rules. Given that the OSCARs were built in compliance to similar rules, i'd consider them a great success, and put that type of seat in every train in Sydney.
One of the constraints were that the seats had to reverse. Perhaps that's why they just didn't bother with the NIF. They could have always put in the XPT-style rotating seats, but of cause, the travelling public can't have nice things any more, such as carpeted trains. For suburban stock, sure, lino is easier to clean, but I find it reminds me of being in a hospital. Carpet makes the train "feel" comfortable and homely, and probably helps reduce noise.
It would have been good to ask about the rubbish suspension too! Design rules or competence? I hear that excuse about design rules to justify poor bus design too. Having worked in the auto industry, I can say that's a poor excuse.

Flip over seats have a safety issue which I feel is what they're focussing on too much. They flip over in a crash and injure their occupants. However, there are simple fixes for that, but some things go in the too hard basket for your average vehicle design engineer nowadays. They don't seem to be able to rise to a challenge the way they used to.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

The Waratahs, at least, have "speed limiters" in the tip over mechanism, much like retractable seat belts. Even just pulling them over manually too quickly can cause them to lock up. That could easily be fitted to V set style seats.

But if customers want tables and power points, they would have to go for rotatable seats. Quite common in similar distance trains in Japan.
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