New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

Hello, I am wondering about The Next few D sets, I am wondering if More are being delivered in Bulk (Like D2, D3, D102 and D103) or one single set, Ive heard Rumours about D104 being In Australia

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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by marcnut1996 »

Yesterday, I managed to see a full 10-set D set (seems to be D3 and D103, the carriage number ends in 03) running on its own. There were electric indicator boards on the side of the carriages stating what car it is (Car 1 to Car 10). The insides also look good to me, with everything unwrapped and visible from the outside.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Stonesourscotty »

One of these new trains was on text in Mt Druitt last night thought it was a freight at first as they are extremely noisy at Speed I could hear it with my noise cancelling headphones on... And possibly linked is weirdly there was a V set parked in St Mary's P3 around the same time with no obvious destination on the platform screens.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

Stonesourscotty wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:48 pm One of these new trains was on text in Mt Druitt last night thought it was a freight at first as they are extremely noisy at Speed I could hear it with my noise cancelling headphones on
Could be they were testing its maximum speed of 160km/h. Usually they test its maximum service speed up to 10% above that, which would be 176km/h. The Waratahs were tested up to 143km/h - 10% above their maximum service speed of 130km/h.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

MotorOmnibus8562 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:51 pm Hello, I am wondering about The Next few D sets, I am wondering if More are being delivered in Bulk (Like D2, D3, D102 and D103) or one single set, Ive heard Rumours about D104 being In Australia

Cheers, MO8562
I don't know if any more have arrived here, but they probably won't release any more until testing has been completed on 3/103
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

I keep reading complaints in the media like "the government ordered new trains from Korea that are too wide for the (BMT)
tracks. Should have had them built in Newcastle", etc.

No one has twigged yet that nearly every train built in Newcastle in the last 40 years has been too wide to use the BMT tracks.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Fleet Lists »

I thought work had been completed on the Blue Mountains line to allow these trains to operate there.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

I thought I'd seen that too, but some locals are still complaining that they won't get all the way to Lithgow..
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

New Intercity Fleet Springwood to Lithgow Rail Corridor Modifications states: Modifications are now complete along the rail corridor from west of Springwood Station to Lithgow Station...
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

boronia wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:12 pm I keep reading complaints in the media like "the government ordered new trains from Korea that are too wide for the (BMT)
tracks. Should have had them built in Newcastle", etc.

No one has twigged yet that nearly every train built in Newcastle in the last 40 years has been too wide to use the BMT tracks.
Yeah, it's just a mischievous media beat-up without any foundation in truth. Contrary to the view that it was a mistake in ordering the wider rolling stock, which is the same as the Waratahs and Oscars, it was quite deliberate in following the long standing policy to standardise the loading gauge of the electric rolling stock. Of course, the media and the government's political opponents, either deliberately or through ignorance, never mention that fact, nor do they acknowledge that the Northern, South Coast and Blue Mountains Lines (the latter as far as Springwood) were similarly modified to allow operation of the Oscars. Just BTW, now that the Blue Mountains Line has been modified beyond Springwood, the Intercity services which currently terminate there will probably be extended to Lawson, where a separate turnback was built a few years ago with the reconfiguration of the Lawson Yard.

No doubt similar modification to track infrastructure, stations and tunnels will be undertaken when electrification is eventually extended to Bomaderry, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland to allow the operation of a single electric Intercity DD fleet. This isn't something new and has been going on for a century, since the even wider SD electric suburban trains were introduced with electrification. It makes complete sense.

I am surprised though that Constance and TfNSW haven't come out earlier to nip this misinformed criticism in the bud by explaining the reasoning behind standardising the loading gauge of the Intercity trains and the need to modify the infrastructure to accommodate it as has been done in the past.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by grog »

Wait for the news articles when the first test run out to Lithgow takes place!
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

The "beat ups" seem to emanate from Labor MPs, who delight in spreading these out-of-context statistics to fire up their equally ignorant constituents.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Transtopic wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:24 pm No doubt similar modification to track infrastructure, stations and tunnels will be undertaken when electrification is eventually extended to Bomaderry, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland to allow the operation of a single electric Intercity DD fleet. This isn't something new and has been going on for a century, since the even wider SD electric suburban trains were introduced with electrification. It makes complete sense.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

Transtopic wrote: No doubt similar modification to track infrastructure, stations and tunnels will be undertaken when electrification is eventually extended to Bomaderry, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland to allow the operation of a single electric Intercity DD fleet.
Not likely to happen any time soon, by which time other technologies such as hydrogen may be a more realistic proposition. Electrification of these lines is more likely to occur if deemed a way for the freight sector to contribute to meeting emissions targets.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Stonesourscotty »

A Four car short set was on test last night it seemed to be a lot quieter than the longer versions but still louder than any other train in the NSW electric fleet.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

Well here we are from the horse's mouth - TfNSW on Facebook. Hardly a surprise really considering the operating environment will remain the same:
Transport for NSW
While the new fleet will be capable of faster speeds than the current fleet, there will be no change to journey times on the intercity network. Train speeds depend on a number of factors, including the track, station and performance infrastructure and network speeds.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by grog »

I feel like you could slip a ‘yet’ in there somewhere...
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

The didn't mention about "artificial restrictions to enhance on-time running figures"
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

grog wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:05 am I feel like you could slip a ‘yet’ in there somewhere...
Too true! It's typical of TfNSW in drip feeding us limited information, without explaining how things fit into the bigger picture. They could have expanded on their comments to explain how the higher speed potential will be utilised when ATO is rolled out across the network with the introduction of digital signalling. The same applies to the Waratahs, Millenniums and Oscars as well as the new regional train fleet. They made the same mistake in not countering the misinformed criticism that the NIF is too wide for tunnels on the Blue Mountains Line beyond Springwood requiring modifications and saved themselves a lot of angst. Their communication skills are abysmal.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by MotorOmnibus8562 »

I saw an image of D4 at central on Facebook either in the SETS group or the NIF appreciation group, so something tells me 10 more cars have arrived if D104 came with them, (All i know is that there are least 4 new cars)
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Bus Suggestions »

As to be expected with most things, when comparing the concept design from 2 years ago to the polished product now, the design has improved greatly from an aesthetics perspective. Judging by the testing scene going on, the community feedback and new features, I'd say these trains are definitely ready to set a new standard for NSW intercity rail travel.
Stonesourscotty wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:48 pm One of these new trains was on text in Mt Druitt last night thought it was a freight at first as they are extremely noisy at Speed I could hear it with my noise cancelling headphones on...
Judging by the testing video from STV I posted some time ago, I wouldn't say they're too loud. That type of noise is to be expected of railcars travelling at that speed, considering the motors running to keep it at that speed and the wind whistling past. Interestingly, that testing video happened to be at Mt Druitt. At low speed departing stations, their noise seems comparable to that of Perth's B-Series sets, which can be loud to some but is expected.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

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Bus Suggestions wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:26 pm Judging by the testing scene going on, the community feedback and new features, I'd say these trains are definitely ready to set a new standard for NSW intercity rail travel.
Well not really. A compromised one because, whereas the Vs were designed exclusively for long distance interurban travel, the Oscars and NIF are designed to be used on the suburban system as well. On the positive side, door spacings are standardised - which is a good thing as it will enable future use of platform screens. Secondly, the trains meet minimum standards of accessibility, which is obviously completely necessary nowadays.

On the down side, the above advances mean that there are large open areas at each end of each carriage to enable crowd circulation and standee space, leading to compromised seating capacity (less seats in the double-level saloons and at the ends) and loss of insulation against outside climate and noise. In addition, the transverse seating is directionally fixed which is a major downside. Whether the seat comfort (a major issue on the Oscars) is going to be as good as on the V sets remains to be seen after we've all had a chance to ride the NIF. Likewise, whether their ride quality and noise insulation will be up to the standard of the V sets remains to be seen.

It's very much a compromise design, which has its obvious benefits for the operator, but not for the passenger. I suspect TfNSW is already aware of the compromise in seating capacity as they have dropped the idea of operating 8 car sets and all will be 10 car, as I understand. Much of the public comment I see on TfNSW's social media praises the V sets and is apprehensive about whether this new train will meet the same standard - which it won't.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by hornetfig »

MotorOmnibus8562 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:31 am I saw an image of D4 at central on Facebook either in the SETS group or the NIF appreciation group, so something tells me 10 more cars have arrived if D104 came with them, (All i know is that there are least 4 new cars)
D4 was hanging around Central in the afternoon on Friday.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Transtopic »

tonyp wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:04 pm It's very much a compromise design, which has its obvious benefits for the operator, but not for the passenger. I suspect TfNSW is already aware of the compromise in seating capacity as they have dropped the idea of operating 8 car sets and all will be 10 car, as I understand. Much of the public comment I see on TfNSW's social media praises the V sets and is apprehensive about whether this new train will meet the same standard - which it won't.
My understanding is that in the early design phase, TfNSW was contemplating a direct replacement for the longer 8 car V set, but subsequently decided to base the NIF on an Oscar with improved performance and upgraded and more comfortable interiors. The 2+2 seating is an improvement over the Oscars, but it's a pity they forgot about the dislike of fixed seating. Perhaps including fixed tables, which would make reversible seating impracticable, influenced this decision.

It appears that the decision to run 10 car NIF sets is an attempt to match the seating capacity of 8 car V sets which they will replace. Indications are that the 10 car sets will mostly operate in peak hours, with 4 and 6 car sets in the off-peak. There's no reason why 8 car sets couldn't also operate if the need arose, but may require the ordering of further sets (most likely 2 x 4 car sets rather than the fixed 8 car Waratahs). I don't think there is any intention of using the NIF on suburban runs, as they are meant to also replace the Oscars which will be cascaded down to the suburban network.

It's a bit premature to make comparisons with the Oscars yet, let alone the V sets. As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

When I say to be used on the suburban system, the interurbans share key stops with the suburban operation and having matching door spacings and other dimensions with suburban trains is critical to this.

It's funny the subtle ways that TfNSW and the government is now trying to paint the Vs as grungy old trains to boost up the intro of the NIF, but all the contributors to the government social media are heaping nothing but praise on the Vs and getting nervous about what the new trains are going to be like. Big boots to fill there obviously. It reminds me of how those great standard suburban sets suddenly became "red rattlers" to the government (even though they didn't rattle!) prior to their demise.
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