Inner West Light Rail observations

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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

STMPainter2018 wrote:
boronia wrote: Isn't there a problem with widths? The XO5s are narrower, thus creating DDA problems.
Yes there is that too but that can be easily fixed; add platform gap fillers so the X05s meet the DDA standards. If you look at the door treads on the Citadis cars, the treads are larger on the inner modules with doors than the outer ones. And the sections of the platforms where these parts of the trams stop, is marked as wheel chair access. So with the IWLR, you'd only need to do it on the sections of platform where the inner modules stop. Or else do the whole length of the platform that might be easier. BUT WAIT! I hear you cry, what about the Urbos 3s? Well from what people like Matthew have said, you'd only have to remove the door treads on those so they fit the loading gauge. But anyway, this is all just speculation. If all else fails, TfNSW could add a grandfather clause for X05s on the IWLR. But I doubt they'd do that. This is what happens when you don't have a set standard, sigh.......
Either way they have to comply with the DDA as it currently stands. Perth has a similar problem with its trains. The first years of modernisation (particularly the Joondalup line) were during the first decade of the DDA in the 1990s, then about 2001 iirc the DDA regs were modified which included a tightening of platform gap standards. From my observations in Perth it makes no practical difference as to whether you can ride a wheelchair or scooter over the gap (which is pretty tiny in either case) but the operator is not allowed to claim full current compliance for 1990s clearances. Part of IWLR was built in the 1990s, part of it in the 2000s and CSELR in the current century too. There's probably no practical difference but current compliance is necessary. I'm sure there's not too much work to do.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Not doubting that CAFs are inferior to products from Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens, but that hundreds have been sold to operators throughout Europe, with some placing repeat orders, indicates they fill a need in the marketplace. CAF is known in parts to stand for Cheap as something or another (fiddlesticks maybe?). It's a bit like in the bus market, the cheaper Chinese products do not suit everybody, but based on the number sold they evidently suit some.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

NSW cheaping out? No!!! As inconceivable as what f word that could be referring to.
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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STMPainter2018 wrote: Okay I may have cam off too harsh in calling CAF con-artists but I'm sorry, as a Sydney-sider who's ridden the Urbos 3's quite a few times, I think y'all are SEVERLY underestimating how XXX these trams really are, or at the very least, how unsuited to the IWLR they are. You only need to ask the maintenance staff at Pyrmont what these trams are like to work on and they'll tell you straight up it's a nightmare, and how much they miss the Variotrams. And I really disagree Tony; I honestly do believe the Urboses are no better than Breda's unreliable junk. And I'm not just talking about lack of doors and power bogie design and how it affects seating, I'm talking about lack of dampers - Variotrams had 8 and rode very well, Urbos 3's only have two or 3 and unlike the X05s don't have axles in their bogies for support so they rock about and creak all over the place on tight curves etc. - the use of incorrect steel on the wheels so they wear down too quickly, the air-conditioning (or lack thereof) not modified for Sydney climate, the fact that they can't run in a shallow pool of water so the motor power connector becomes completely cooked and they can't get a new spare cause of manufacturing conflicts; I could go on. I really did not appreciate the Variotrams in their time because working on 2107 at Loftus, and knowing the backstory behind it and it's sisters and the care John Dunn put into them to make sure they could run for 30-40 years, really opened my eyes to what a load of cheap junk we got in their place. The Urbos 3's are what the Variotrams COULD'VE been had John Dunn not stepped in. And I will say Tony, I definitely agree that tenders are given to price, and that's ESPECIALLY true of CAF's trams, but I disagree that this is all on TfNSW; CAF takes a share of blame for why we have sub-optimal outcomes on the current Inner West line. Sure they could've been given more doors and better seating had Transport known what they were doing, but that doesn't change the fact that they would've been shoddily built and terrible to maintain. In terms of tram design, CAF are now where ALSTOM where when they introduced the Melbourne C class trams; completely hopeless. Again, this is all just going off their tram products, but I stand by my belief that CAF's trams are crap and they should be removed with a superior product - aka the Citadis cars - as soon as possible. Bottom line cut and dry.
The reason for my note of caution relates to litigious concerns, need I say more? I agree with you that CAF produce a very basic tram, which I expressed in polite words above, and they are succesfully getting major orders for them around the world. This suggests that operators haven't discovered major issues with them. By comparison Bredas soon revealed their faults and were having major overhauls at only a few thousand kms, with some systems giving up and getting rid of them asap (e.g. Manchester). These things can also depend on the operating environment. Variotrams have also had a couple of disasters, usually related to their ability to chew up trackwork (e.g. Helsinki). Instead of asking about performance of the Variotrams, ask about how the tracks have been faring on IWLR since 1997. We both agree that it would be great if the CAFs were replaced by something better, but it's not going to happen and the deleted doors are TfNSW's fault not CAF's.
Last edited by tonyp on Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote:Not doubting that CAFs are inferior to products from Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens, but that hundreds have been sold to operators throughout Europe, with some placing repeat orders, indicates they fill a need in the marketplace. CAF is known in parts to stand for Cheap as something or another (fiddlesticks maybe?). It's a bit like in the bus market, the cheaper Chinese products do not suit everybody, but based on the number sold they evidently suit some.
Your Chinese buses are a good analogy, but CAFs aren't really cheaper than other trams. It's usually some other aspect of the deal that gets them across the line (plus the client's own low standards).
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

This is due to substation failure in evening peak yesterday. Unbelievable that they didn't fit the CAFs with batteries to get them to the next stop. Perhaps another "saving" by TfNSW in the contract, on top of deleting a couple of doors.

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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Tonight will be the final night of the overnight shuttles between Central and The Star, and from Sunday the light rail stop there will be closed until further notice.

I presume there must be some special arrangement for the funding of these particular services, as the powers in charge usually aren't so reactive to things changing! Well, I guess it has taken them five days after the casino closed for the service to end, but that's fast in relativity :twisted:

https://transportnsw.info/alerts/details#/6048747
Overnight light rail services between Central and The Star suspended
UPDATED 27 Mar 17:52

Sat 28 Mar 23:00 - Wed 1 Jul 00:00

Details
As a result of the latest directives from the Australian Government around public gatherings, the L1 light rail services operating from 11pm (midnight on Friday) to 6am between Central Grand Concourse and The Star in both directions, will be suspended from 11pm Saturday 28 March 2020.

Daily light rail services will no longer stop at The Star from 6am Sunday 29 March, but all other stops will operate as per normal.

This follows the closure of The Star Sydney casino, restaurant and bars.

These temporary service changes will be in place until further notice.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Which will mean that the bus replacement services mentioned in https://transportnsw.info/news/2020/l1- ... -trackwork will also not proceed I would think.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boxythingy »

That section of line is such a basket-case, closed for all reasons possible
moa999
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

So with the New Fish Markets building being green lit, what will this mean for the IWLR.

Presumably some name changes may be required
The current Fish Markets stop will no longer be the closest to the New Fish Markets, but Wentworth Park won't be much closer and the accessibility is relatively poor (switchback ramp to Wattle St on one side only)

Could we see a new stop built near Wentworth Park Rd?
(Note not mentioned at all in any of the plans released to date)
Last edited by moa999 on Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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What plans are you referring to?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by jpp42 »

A bus stop right out in front on Bridge Rd would be ideal too, especially for those of limited mobility. However I don't have any great ideas of what route could be diverted this way.
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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I don't know exactly where the entrance to the markets will be, but it seems to me that Glebe stop is little more distant than Wentworth Park, with the advantage of no busy roads to cross.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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The new fish markets will have access from multiple sides, so it will depend on where in the complex you're trying to go to. Based on my fooling around with the plans that have been released and Google Maps, it looks like it's about 300m walking distance from Glebe LR station to the southwest corner of the site, and about 250m from Wentworth Park station (which as you note involves crossing Bridge Rd). Despite the road crossing, I think it would make sense to advertise Wentworth Park since it's closer to the city - people don't like the sense of going past their destination, particularly if the distances are similar. It also makes sense that the Fish Market would orient its services towards the city end - it appears the wide plazas with food court etc are mostly on that side.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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So they would have to rename the existing Fish Market stop?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by iamthouth »

Inner West Light Rail to receive four new vehicles

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/fou ... 56cda.html
Four new trams promised for Sydney's crowded Inner West line

By Tom Rabe November 8, 2020 — 12.00am

The NSW government will purchase four new light rail vehicles for Sydney’s crowded Inner West line, allowing it to move an extra 1000 people during the post-pandemic peak.

Transport Minister Andrew Constance said the government would begin the procurement process for the four new trams in coming months, which are expected to arrive within two years.

The Inner West Light Rail was packed during the peak pre-COVID.
The Inner West Light Rail was packed during the peak pre-COVID.CREDIT:LOUISE KENNERLEY

Patronage was increasing at more than two per cent per year before the COVID-19 pandemic, with more than 10 million trips recorded in 2019. And while that dropped during the pandemic, the light rail hasn’t been hit as hard as trains, Mr Constance said.

“Patronage is just at a level where crowding is terrible. This thing has gone gangbusters, it’s just off the charts, next level,” he said.

“People are opting for public transport over cars, that’s the thing about Sydney, it has really become a train city, it wouldn’t matter if it was light rail, metro or the inter-city trains.”

While the government is yet to put a price tag on the four new light rail vehicles, it is expected to cost roughly $40 million.

Peak hour services will increase from every eight minutes to six minutes once the four new trams arrive, increasing capacity by more than 30 per cent and building the fleet from 12 to 16.

Mr Constance said coronavirus had impacted global supply chains, but believed the vehicles would arrive before 2023.

“Timeline will depend, one of the interesting things with COVID is the supply chains in the component parts into vehicles has been affected around the world, so governments are really struggling with that,” he said.

“You would hope, like with all light rail vehicles, it would be 18 to 24 months.”

Labor MP for Summer Hill Jo Haylen said the Inner West Light Rail was proof that if the government built public transport “people use it”.

“These additional services will go a long way to beat congestion and help us all socially distance as we return to work,” Ms Haylen said.

“Inner-westies are amongst the highest users of public transport and we love our light rail but too often the trams are full or late.”
She said hundreds had signed petitions to lobby the NSW government to increase capacity of the packed service.

Ms Haylen met with Mr Constance and Treasurer Dominic Perrottet in Dulwich Hill on Wednesday to discuss the new trams.

Mr Perrottet said the cost of the light rail vehicles would not be set out in this month’s budget, given the procurement process was yet to be completed.

Patronage on the 12.8-kilometre line from Central Station to Dulwich Hill soared from 3.9 million journeys in the 2013-14 financial year to just over 10 million in 2016-17.

The line recorded more than 10.7 million commuters in 2018/19 and 8.46 million trips for 2019/20, with patronage affected by coronavirus restrictions.

The Herald revealed last year that commuters would likely have to wait at least two years for more trams to be running on the Inner West line.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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iamthouth wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:48 am Inner West Light Rail to receive four new vehicles

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/fou ... 56cda.html

least two years for more trams to be running on the Inner West line.
The same CAF Urbos 3? And if so what length?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Will be the same length as existing trams due to platform lengths, longer Alstom Citadis X05s as used on the CBD&SELR are not an option. While an open tender, it probably is CAF's to lose.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Linto63 wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:58 am Will be the same length as existing trams due to platform lengths, longer Alstom Citadis X05s as used on the CBD&SELR are not an option.
What if they used shorter ones? Also, can they be used with overhead wires?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

If there are capacity problems, why would they opt for shorter sets?

There are no alternative power supplies, no point in buying them if they can't.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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boronia wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:44 am If there are capacity problems, why would they opt for shorter sets?

There are no alternative power supplies, no point in buying them if they can't.
But is there a version of the Alstom Citadis X05s that runs on overhead wires?
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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L2 and L3 have XO5s running off overhead, except in part of the CBD.

Most manufacturers will build to the customer s specifications.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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Oh! That makes more sense!

Thanks!
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

And the X05s already run over part of the IWLR track to reach the heave maintenance depot.

It had been reported though that the can't be used in service due to accessibility requirements (the platforms would need to be adjusted)
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