CBD & South East Light Rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
moa999
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

Reo wrote:Thanks for your replies boronia and moa999. After reading both replies, I rang Opal and was told it was only up until the first initial "tap-on" that your money was returned if not used within 90 days. After you "tap-on" once, the money will then stay in your account indefinately. Strange system !!
Exactly the same as Qld's Go Card
From 5 May 2014 if you top up your go card and you don’t touch on within 60 days, the money will be returned to your credit or debit card. This change reduces the time your top-up is pending from 180 days to 60 days.
https://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fa ... to-go-card
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

On one of the tram forums, a contributer (Mark Skinner) has posted this photo of a new tram stop in Brno with the modern standard 300mm+ platform height with Kassel kerbs, as it is used by buses on the overnight service on this route:
BrnoMark.jpg
BrnoMark.jpg (141.98 KiB) Viewed 6520 times
As you can see, there is little physical difference from a normal modern tram stop and you have to look closely to see the Kassel kerb at the bottom of the platform edge. A very simple innovation that enables buses to run through modern tram platforms without a problem. This is the type of side-platform stop that should have been used throughout CSELR.

Just wait - after CSELR opens they'll decide that they need an overnight bus service along the route during the hours CSELR is not running (0100 to 0500) - not to mention bustitutions. Except that the buses won't be able to run along the route ....

Think about the route and how you would apply bustitution along it:

- Buses generally having to leave the tram lanes and pull to the kerb battling with traffic because of the centre-island platforms.
- Buses unable to terminate at CQ because of dead-end tram stops in a plaza.
- Buses unable to terminate at Randwick because of dead-end tram stops in a a plaza.
- Buses unable to go through Rawson Place, Devonshire Street, Wansey Road because of single-lane one-way streets.
- Buses probably unable to use the tramway from Surry Hills to Moore Park because there'll undoubtedly be some design reason why they can't.
- Questionable whether CoS would be happy with buses driving along the George Street plaza (similar with Chalmers Street) and whether the pavement would support them, apart from the stop at Bridge St being a centre-island iirc.

TfNSW is supposed to be an agency of transport professionals and yet doesn't think of such details? This issue was brought to their attention by me in submissions years ago, so much for the effectiveness of the public consultation process.
Last edited by tonyp on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Frosty
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Frosty »

I'm guessing the bus service at CQ would terminate where buses currently terminate. Night buses generally don't terminate at Randwick the bus would be a through service down to Coogee. I'm also probably guessing a night bus would either run via Cleveland St or via Oxford St via Taylor Square.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by simonl »

Image is not visible, tonyp. Perhaps a permissions issue?
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

simonl wrote:Image is not visible, tonyp. Perhaps a permissions issue?
Thanks, I've edited the post above to include the image by a different means. The photographer is a friend so there is no permission issue.
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Passenger 57
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote: Just wait - after CSELR opens they'll decide that they need an overnight bus service along the route during the hours CSELR is not running (0100 to 0500)
Why not just run a tram at night? Wouldn't it still be more economical running the full size juggernaut than a bus? Are they still planning to stable trams on the track overnight? Could they arrange things so that a trolley bus could be used to bypass sections of track with parked vehicles? Even a hybrid trolley bus using only some of the overhead would still seem to be a win.Iit could even have a battery to keep Clover happy except for leaving rubber on the plaza.
TfNSW is supposed to be an agency of transport professionals and yet doesn't think of such details? This issue was brought to their attention by me in submissions years ago, so much for the effectiveness of the public consultation process.
I doubt any of public infrastructure consultation processes passes on any unsolicited engineering advice mno matter how sound it is or well credentialled the submitter. Did you have contact with any of the planners? You might have stood a better chance writing directly to the minister - assuming what you are proposing makes common sense to a layman and you don't sound like a crank - on the off chance it gets passed to someone competent to give it some consideration and has influence.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Why not just run a tram at night? Wouldn't it still be more economical running the full size juggernaut than a bus? Are they still planning to stable trams on the track overnight? Could they arrange things so that a trolley bus could be used to bypass sections of track with parked vehicles? Even a hybrid trolley bus using only some of the overhead would still seem to be a win.Iit could even have a battery to keep Clover happy except for leaving rubber on the plaza.

I doubt any of public infrastructure consultation processes passes on any unsolicited engineering advice mno matter how sound it is or well credentialled the submitter. Did you have contact with any of the planners? You might have stood a better chance writing directly to the minister - assuming what you are proposing makes common sense to a layman and you don't sound like a crank - on the off chance it gets passed to someone competent to give it some consideration and has influence.
I suspect they want overnight downtime for any maintenance. It's obvious that any overnight bus services would take an almost completely different route. Bustitution in daytime would be very interesting to behold - not only a different route, but stuck in traffic like Cleveland St. Any timetable and journey time would be shot to pieces.

Trolleybuses would need an extra wire so forget that. Talking about burning rubber though, it's very interesting to see trolleybuses in snow where the driving wheels go into reverse coming into stops to assist braking! So there would be potential to annoy Clover by doing burnouts in front of the town hall. :twisted:

I did have pretty direct inside contact at one stage but they don't really care. It's just another "railway" job to them.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Overnight bus services could simply replicate existing services. Running along Elizabeth St instead of George shouldn't be too much inconvenience. They don't need to follow tram lines exactly.

There are no buses at all along Devonshire St now, so a lack of them from 2019 won't be noticed.

Likewise for UNSW and PoW, there are no buses at these hours now, so again no need later.

Anzac Pde only gets a 30 min service overnight now, so this could use traffic lanes and kerb stops without causing problems.

Bustitution will bring its own problems. Apart from where to run them, are they going to keep a hundred or so buses on standby to handle the crowds.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote: I suspect they want overnight downtime for any maintenance.
Every night? And why take the whole route down? Why should it be treated differently to the IWLR?
It's obvious that any overnight bus services would take an almost completely different route.
I guess the point is really that existing bus services will continue overnight and these have a higher demand over the entire route. Unless they get to the point of requiring additional capacity there would not need to be a vehicle along the entire tram route or near it.
Trolleybuses would need an extra wire so forget that.
Too expensive? We could always find some excuse for two wire operation for the tram. :-) Is there any proven way to do ground return for a trolley when the rail is between the wheels? You could have accurate alignment with just optical guidance.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Is there any proven way to do ground return for a trolley when the rail is between the wheels?
A boarding or alighting passenger with one hand on the grab-rail and one foot on the ground is a time-honoured method of providing an earth return. :wink:
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Frosty
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Frosty »

Bustitution would be hard they would have to copy Melbourne in a way. But have to divert local routes.Maybe take a leaf out of rail replacement buses.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by simonl »

You see similar efforts at level boarding at some stops in Melbourne as the one posted by tonyp above. It's a good move and one wonders why buses don't often get the same treatment outside of South America. AFAIK All transit can develop from reduced dwell times.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

simonl wrote:You see similar efforts at level boarding at some stops in Melbourne as the one posted by tonyp above. It's a good move and one wonders why buses don't often get the same treatment outside of South America. AFAIK All transit can develop from reduced dwell times.
Level boarding of buses has been practised in a growing number of European cities since the 1990s. Unlike Melbourne, the platforms incorporate Kassel or similar kerbs as the norm. South America doesn't really figure in rhe mainstream development of level boarding as the two BRT systems are high-floor and are self-contained. In Europe the buses are normal low-floor buses that can be used at any type of stop.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by simonl »

Perhaps I'm being pedantic but Kassel kerbs aren't quite level are they?
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

simonl wrote:Perhaps I'm being pedantic but Kassel kerbs aren't quite level are they?
You're confusing platform height with the correcting kerb which is down at road level. Platform height is typically something over 300 mm (over twice the height of a typical roadside kerb). Usually they design it so that it's as level as possible with the vehicle door threshold, which is the whole idea of having a platform.

The Kassel (or similar) kerb is on the interface between the kerb and road level and is for the purpose of assisting the bus to get as close as possible to the kerb without striking it, a particular issue with high kerbs as, not only may it be a matter of tyre scrub, but the actual body may foul the kerb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel_kerb

Such kerbs have become particularly popular with the modern practice of buses sharing tram stops. However, nobody to my knowledge has started using them in Australia yet. At the couple of shared stops in Melbourne, buses have a habit of standing a fair distance off the platform in order to avoid hitting it, so the passenger has a gap to step across. In Sydney there will be a stop in High St Randwick that buses will run through but it hasn't occurred to them that the buses can actually use the stop so there will be no Kassel kerb and there will be a separate bus stop down the street. :roll:
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Tonymercury »

tonyp wrote:
Such kerbs have become particularly popular with the modern practice of buses sharing tram stops. However, nobody to my knowledge has started using them in Australia yet. At the couple of shared stops in Melbourne, buses have a habit of standing a fair distance off the platform in order to avoid hitting it, so the passenger has a gap to step across. In Sydney there will be a stop in High St Randwick that buses will run through but it hasn't occurred to them that the buses can actually use the stop so there will be no Kassel kerb and there will be a separate bus stop down the street. :roll:
I understand that deckers on the Cambridge guded busway have a TV camera that allows the driver to check proximity to the high kerbs there.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Bedford-29 »

You will find that Prague and Brno tramway systems with the Czech version of the super tram stop that day time buses over there will stop at a tram stop the same could be done in Sydney.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Bedford-29 wrote:You will find that Prague and Brno tramway systems with the Czech version of the super tram stop that day time buses over there will stop at a tram stop the same could be done in Sydney.
The 300+ mm high platform stop is only just starting to take off in CZ (that Brno example in the photo above being an example). To date they've been content with kerb-height (150 mm) platforms which present no problems for buses. It's easy enough to wheel prams on board from that height and a single 6" step-up is no problem for most people. A fold-out ramp is used for wheelchairs, just like here. The idea of the higher level boarding is that wheelchairs can get in unassisted.

Buses have been running throught tram stops for some years in Europe - for interchange, or simply sharing the lanes to bypass traffic bottlenecks. However, it's an absolute prerequisite that they have the same dwell times as trams, thus prepaid or tap-on ticketing and all-door entry with 3 to 4 doors in 12 metre buses and 4 to 5 doors in 18 metre artics.

The first couple of minutes of this video shows an interchange scenario that is exactly the same context as Randwick or Kingsford on CSELR, but more convenient for the passengers. That is, the buses come from suburbs further out and same-platform interchange with the tram at the latter's terminus. The journey to and from the city centre is completed on the tram while the buses return out to the suburbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkS9IVF7pSc
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Bedford-29 »

All this bellyaching about the trams returning to Sydney streets the ones protesting should watch this episode of Japan Railway Journal and see how the tram is working for these cities in Japan.
https://youtu.be/PVCOL-_QBdg
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

Bedford-29 wrote:You will find that Prague and Brno tramway systems with the Czech version of the super tram stop that day time buses over there will stop at a tram stop the same could be done in Sydney.
Exactly and even done without Kessel kerbs -- with two tracks as guide lines not hard for a bus driver to line up close to the kerb..

But of course only possible with side platforms.. now how many island platforms are we getting again
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote:
But of course only possible with side platforms.. now how many island platforms are we getting again
8 out of 16, excluding the termini which buses can't drive through anyway. Through the CBD they tend to be side platforms. From Moore Park outwards they're mostly centre-island platforms. Another idiocy is that they said that buses would be sharing the tram lanes from Kingsford to Todman Ave but because the platforms are islands they won't be able to share the stops, but will have to leave the tram lanes and shove through traffic across to the kerb and back again every time they need to access a stop.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Wasn't it to be only the express buses that would use the tram lines? These don't pick up after Kingsford, except at the stop just after Todman Ave.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote:Wasn't it to be only the express buses that would use the tram lines? These don't pick up after Kingsford, except at the stop just after Todman Ave.
It could have been, it's a while since I read it all and I don't know what may have changed in bus planning since then.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Exactly and even done without Kessel kerbs -- with two tracks as guide lines not hard for a bus driver to line up close to the kerb..
It would be interesting to see how Sydney bus drivers would go. Apparently they struggle a bit in Melbourne, alternating between "hits" on the kerb and standing off a distance so that passengers have a gap to step across.

The point I'm making is that a 300+ mm kerb is a different issue from a standard 150 mm kerb. Here is a shared stop with a 150 mm platform height (courtesy of Mr OC Benz):

Image

Now double the height of that kerb and you can see that the platform edge is in line with the bodywork - not just a matter of scrubbed tyres but possible body panel impact. Are there any bus stops in Sydney at present that have a platform or kerb at a c 300 mm height? This is the sort of situation that a Kassel kerb is designed to assist with.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Tonymercury »

Or for buses only a 250 mm height and kneeling the bus will bring it down to level boarding.
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