CBD & South East Light Rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
matthewg
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by matthewg »

hornetfig wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:54 pm They are? So now when somebody next manages to trip a fire alarm all the lines can go down for half the day
L1 drivers are not micromanaged to the extent that L2/L3 is and can continue to run a service without the control room.

I bet the 'shut down to install new equipment' was a switch that allows the transfer of control to Moore Park without shutting down Randwick control first - I'd bet the transfer can now be done remotely at the bunker.

I gather that fire alarm took so long to recover from was that when the alarm went off everyone quickly evacuated Randwick but forgot to 'transfer control' to Moore Park. So they OCC staff decamp to the bunker and find they can't log in. No one's allowed back in Randwick to 'transfer control' till the firies hand the site back.
Meanwhile, the 'micromanaged' L2/L3 grinds to a halt as the trams are no longer getting updates from the OCC traffic management system.

This isn't a unique problem - the Metro is totally dependent on its control room too - and several service interruptions have been caused by fire alarms causing evac of the OCC. The trains stop getting updates from the OCC and won't leave the next station. The on-train staff, while all trained in manual operation are not allowed to take over control with passengers on board and certainly not without direct instruction from the OCC (which is of course not issuing instructions as it's been evacuated!)

The problem is that the staff 'on the ground' are not empowered to make any decision what so ever. Every action has to be cleared by the OCC.
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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

I bet the 'shut down to install new equipment' was a switch that allows the transfer of control to Moore Park without shutting down Randwick control first - I'd bet the transfer can now be done remotely at the bunker.
The "new equipment" was specifically referred to as being related to future provision of RTD. Some of it had to be fitted at Lilyfield.
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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Caught the tram to and from Randwick and wow, this thing was absolutely packed. With, you guessed, UNSW students. The travel time was also commendable. 17 minutes from Central to Randwick. I wouldn’t agree with Mayor Laxale’s very recent comment of “the slowest tram in the world” - its actually viable now. I hope that those who protested the 891/893 bus cancellation have given the tram a try and see its not really all that bad as it was a year ago.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Well I absolutely resented their presence on regular buses but this was built with them in mind so it's acceptable for them to King Oscar these services.

I wonder if they distribute themselves well?
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CityRail
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by CityRail »

Jurassic_Joke wrote:Caught the tram to and from Randwick and wow, this thing was absolutely packed. With, you guessed, UNSW students. The travel time was also commendable. 17 minutes from Central to Randwick. I wouldn’t agree with Mayor Laxale’s very recent comment of “the slowest tram in the world” - its actually viable now. I hope that those who protested the 891/893 bus cancellation have given the tram a try and see its not really all that bad as it was a year ago.
Can I ask how packed it is?
Is that to a point where social distancing is not possible?

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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:38 pm Caught the tram to and from Randwick and wow, this thing was absolutely packed. With, you guessed, UNSW students. The travel time was also commendable. 17 minutes from Central to Randwick. I wouldn’t agree with Mayor Laxale’s very recent comment of “the slowest tram in the world” - its actually viable now. I hope that those who protested the 891/893 bus cancellation have given the tram a try and see its not really all that bad as it was a year ago.
The recent running time improvements have lifted the commercial speed from 13 km/h to about 15 km/h so it's still pretty-much the slowest tram system in the world. If they can get it down to 31 minutes it will reach 16 km/h which will place it on the bottom rung (e.g. Melbourne) of the world's systems. If they can get it to 30 minutes, it will reach 17 km/h which would at least be low-end barely respectable for a system that runs entirely in its own separated lanes.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

CityRail wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:08 pm
Jurassic_Joke wrote:Caught the tram to and from Randwick and wow, this thing was absolutely packed. With, you guessed, UNSW students. The travel time was also commendable. 17 minutes from Central to Randwick. I wouldn’t agree with Mayor Laxale’s very recent comment of “the slowest tram in the world” - its actually viable now. I hope that those who protested the 891/893 bus cancellation have given the tram a try and see its not really all that bad as it was a year ago.
Can I ask how packed it is?
Is that to a point where social distancing is not possible?

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Pretty much, yep - all seats taken and wriggle room for walking throughout the tram was very very limited. Also in the CBD section too. It’s starting to very much resemble the scene before Covid-19/opening days of this thing except for the four seats closest to the drivers cab remain roped off to passengers and dwell time is much shorter. (And of course, the doors open automatically!).

I’ve also googled and found out that UNSW O Week is on this week, might explain the sudden surge in student patronage.
tonyp wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:26 pm
Jurassic_Joke wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:38 pm Caught the tram to and from Randwick and wow, this thing was absolutely packed. With, you guessed, UNSW students. The travel time was also commendable. 17 minutes from Central to Randwick. I wouldn’t agree with Mayor Laxale’s very recent comment of “the slowest tram in the world” - its actually viable now. I hope that those who protested the 891/893 bus cancellation have given the tram a try and see its not really all that bad as it was a year ago.
The recent running time improvements have lifted the commercial speed from 13 km/h to about 15 km/h so it's still pretty-much the slowest tram system in the world. If they can get it down to 31 minutes it will reach 16 km/h which will place it on the bottom rung (e.g. Melbourne) of the world's systems. If they can get it to 30 minutes, it will reach 17 km/h which would at least be low-end barely respectable for a system that runs entirely in its own separated lanes.
Sure Tony, but how much faster do you want it to go? Slowest tram in the world or not, it’s actually viable to use now. 17 mins from Randwick (or 15 from UNSW High St) to Central is a very fair ask, especially in peak hour - unlike the buses, the trams don’t have to compete with the other traffic and get stuck in a traffic time sink during peak hour (example - route 400) because they don’t share the road with the cars, which is another asset in its favour.

I think I’d personally prefer they start instead focussing on things like rolling out real time information for the apps, it feels somewhat incomplete without it
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

Randwick/Kingsford to Chalmers has always been comparable to equivalent bus running times.

It is in the section between there and CQ that it loses out. people are still directly comparing the different end to end times without taking the different route into account. But for many passengers, the time difference matters.
Last edited by boronia on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

J_J brings up a pertinent point. It may be a dawdler but it's a consistent predictable one unlike buses!!
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by grog »

The average speed from Randwick to Central on L2 and Juniors Kingsford to Central on T3 is similar to the average speed from Dullwich Hill to Central on L1 - a little over 20km/h.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

The average speed between Central and Randwick/Kingsford in the current timetable is in the range 17 to 19 km/h, depending on the route and direction. The average speed on the Dulwich Hill line is a bit over 20 km/h, which is rather slow for a line, not only in its own lanes, but for most of its length on a grade-separated ROW.

I notice they now have different weekday timetables on CSELR for Mon/Tues and Wed/Thurs/Friday. I haven't analysed the reason.

Yes, the CSELR is absolutely viable to use now - within its own catchment. The main issue comes if and when they mandate bus interchange at the outer ends. I think that's the main reason they've been trying to speed it up. Then there's the timekeeping that should progress in lockstep with the speeding up. SInce we don't have live tracking we can't assess how that's going except for casual field observations.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by J_Busworth »

Something very annoying that I noticed whilst waiting for my 400 at UNSW two days in a row this week.

The trams still aren’t running at a consistent frequency. One evening the wait time for the next trams was 17, 18 and 22 minutes and the following evening it was 5, 27 and 30 minutes.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Real time tracking would be more handy than ever then.
It's ridiculous it's standard on buses but the trams won't do it a year later.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

It suggests that they still don't have confidence in the timekeeping and that it probably got worse when they speeded up the service to the present timetable.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

These inconsistencies are not uncommon. I've waited up to 22 minutes for an L3, then the next one is only a minute behind. L2s were running normally at the same time.
It is hard to accept that they are all caused by traffic delays.

Changing ends at CQ must be part of Transdev's staff fitness program. I've seen some very fast turnaround times.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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Went past UNSW Anzac stop mid-morning yesterday, just as an outbound L3 pulled up. Would have been about 150 people got off.

Memories of the 2nd gen system.
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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Caught the L2 again from Randwick to central today around 3pm - absolutely chockers 100% full with both UNSW students from High St and school students from Moore Park. No room to move and I think a few pax at Surry Hills couldn’t board and had to wait for the next one. Most got off at central. Driver interestingly announced something like doors can not close with objects obstructing the doorway, thank you
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

So that would have required four artics or over seven standard buses. I find it hard to assess how full they are when you're riding on them because it's divided into two and you have no knowledge of what happens in the other car. It's also difficult for a crowd to adjust itself by moving along the tram, so you can get one car completely overcrowded and the other car partly empty. It's a pity they couldn't get one of the single 60 metre trams on the market but that's the problem when you're locked into a consortium and the manufacturer member of the consortium doesn't have the range of products.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I can comment that the platforms at High St and Moore Park had an absolute sea of pax spread out along the length the of the entire platform. The uni students appear to have really given up on buses after the 891 et al have been binned, but I really don’t look forward to seeing what it looks like when 372/373 meet the same fate

At other times, including weekends, patronage levels remain healthy and not eye opening
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by swtt »

Jurassic_Joke wrote:I can comment that the platforms at High St and Moore Park had an absolute sea of pax spread out along the length the of the entire platform. The uni students appear to have really given up on buses after the 891 et al have been binned, but I really don’t look forward to seeing what it looks like when 372/373 meet the same fate

At other times, including weekends, patronage levels remain healthy and not eye opening
Trouble with UNSW is that the peaks commence at 5 minute to, and 15 min after the hour. At other times it's generally fine.

Upper campus is also much more lightly loaded compared to lower campus, in terms of buses. But that could change now that L2 is as frequent as L3 (previously the upper campus express buses wouldn't have reached the same frequency as the lower campus ones. Back as 891/895 or 893/898).

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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: I find it hard to assess how full they are when you're riding on them because it's divided into two and you have no knowledge of what happens in the other car. It's also difficult for a crowd to adjust itself by moving along the tram, so you can get one car completely overcrowded and the other car partly empty.
Possible, but not likely. If people congregate tends to be in the middle of the platform, so a 50/50 split as to which part they board. Would be more likely to occur if all passengers had to enter from one direction, much like a train from the country platforms at Central will tend to fill up from the rear, but that tends not to be the case with most light rail stops having entrances at both ends. IIRC, Moore Park is the exception, normally only having one entrance open with the second only opened when major events are on.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

Wait until it is raining and everyone is congregated under the canopy.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

And which part of the platforms tends to be covered?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:35 pm I can comment that the platforms at High St and Moore Park had an absolute sea of pax spread out along the length the of the entire platform.
Excellent then!
boronia wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:14 pm Wait until it is raining and everyone is congregated under the canopy.
Somewhat less excellent. :lol:

At least they can spread out from the inner ends of the cars once they've fought their way through the back couple of doors.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:04 pm And which part of the platforms tends to be covered?
The canopies appear to be centered in the stops, but the lengths seem to vary.
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